Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

But you do realize that all the things you listed (as well as many of the advancements you failed to mention) required a great deal more than mere brawn to accomplish, right?

True enough there was a lot of grunt work required on the front line. But there were many great minds behind the scenes involved in very detailed planning and organisation of those advancements. (controversially most of them were male - oops I know it's sexist to state things like this!:P)

And yes you are correct, we have now developed a society where it possible to better utilize female abilities. It is certainly the case that women's skills were being under utilized and under valued in past generations. I have never attempted to deny this...

And who might I ask you is driving this paradigm shift? I'll give you a hint... primarily those same people who are creating more female oriented work environments - MEN!

Male advantages haven't necessarily been completely eroded either, as you suggested... Male aggression is still very much alive in certain areas of business. (albeit less mainstream now - as being male is often offensive to some people's delicate natures)

But again none of this is really addressing the point I was making. There has been a rather insulting suggestion that men's position in society (not necessarily just their suitability to carry out manual labour jobs), is solely down to our physical advantages... despite the fact that many of the greatest advancements in human history were not cooked up at the bottom of a coal mine or in on a hay field.

Many feminists would like to portray all us men as muscle-bound bullies that acquired our position in society solely by force and aggression. And they attempt to denigrate any other attributes we might have... or any achievements that didn't require or biceps to accomplish!

It's a rather foolish way of thinking. But when most men don't stand up for themselves, these foolish notions will persist and grow!

I wonder if ThinkProgress will respond to me asking him how he deems men the superior sex throughout history when there was a long time during which women did not have the power to make more of themselves, no allowance to vote and the like.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And there's nothing wrong with that! Really, if feminists want to focus on womens' rights and believe that having separate movements for the rights of each gender, personally it's not something I agree with as the best tactic, but there's nothing wrong with it.

What is wrong though is how so many feminists attack the mens' rights movement and say "if you're interested in equality, you're a feminist" - and then shut down any discussion of mens' issues on feminist forums and spaces. What they're actually saying is "there's no room for discussion of men getting discriminated against unless it fits our narrative that it's ultimately mens' fault and women are the real victims", and that's not cool at all.

Yes it is nonsense.

Ideally gender issues would be a joint concern but there are issues that only affect men and only affect women - so I do not have a problem with separate men's rights groups and women's rights groups. Although I think if both worked together on common gender concerns (because they are not all just affecting the one sex) it would be fantastic. I can dream though...

silverharp wrote: »

I believe 95% of patents are developed by men

You believe it or it is the case?

nothing has really changed, men build sh11t and think up the next sh11t to build. Men that have relied on doing low skilled manual work are not in a good position but then again go to somewhere like Dundrum and its mostly female staff that could all be replaced by teenagers or possibly robots in the years ahead.

Nope, no misogyny on Boards.

This post has been deleted.

silverharp wrote: »

surely men are allowed to have some collective pride?

Cannot see where I indicated they could not?

You will have to convince me more that "go to somewhere like Dundrum and its mostly female staff that could all be replaced by teenagers or possibly robots in the years ahead" is not putting down women.

Ice Maiden wrote: »

He will not acknowledge it - I asked him about it twice and got no response.

When are some of you going to address my point?

Do you think men's position in society as the dominant gender was/is solely down to our physical advantages? Are you guys really that deluded to think that men have no other advantages or capabilities... we're all just bullies with bigger biceps? lol

And I feel I've already stated my position on the issues you're referring to.

Don't you think the fact women had no vote, no education etc is a fairly big sign that they were not born with exactly the same capabilities as men?

If men and women had the same innate capabilities from birth, why did women need to be given everything that they've gotten in recent history? Why can't they take anything for themselves...?

Even now, many years after those early struggles, women are still being GIVEN things. Being GIVEN favorable/preferential treatment... affirmative action, quotas etc...

If men and women are the same. If we are born with the same innate capabilities... why the constant need for help?

If we're all the same, why was there even any deep inequalities to begin with?

Women are not takers... they are receivers. In order for most women to get ahead in life, they require men to concede ground, make special allowances for them and MOST IMPORTANTLY give them things!

If life was a truly fair playing field, where men and women competed against each other... without any concessions or allowances made by men... women would not stand a chance of competing.

Equality is an illusion. Women compete against men, but men usually only compete against each other...

But the longer we keep giving women preferential treatment in society, the worse it will be for them when the day comes that we remove that support. It's a crutch that actually only serves to keep women as the weaker sex... the power they wield is mostly just an illusion too!

Mod: Banned.

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Do you think men's position in society as the dominant gender was/is solely down to our physical advantages? Are you guys really that deluded to think that men have no other advantages or capabilities... we're all just bullies with bigger biceps? lol

No of course not. You did not really "lol" because you know you have just accused people of something they did not say.

Don't you think the fact women had no vote, no education etc is a fairly big sign that they were not born with exactly the same capabilities as men?

I don't know.

If men and women had the same innate capabilities from birth, why did women need to be given everything that they've gotten in recent history? Why can't they take anything for themselves...?

Huh? The Suffragettes and those who descended from that movement *fought* their asses off.

Even now, many years after those early struggles, women are still being GIVEN things. Being GIVEN favorable/preferential treatment... affirmative action, quotas etc...

I agree with you that there is too much victimisation of women by a lot of feminists today.
The rest of your post is just borderline misogyny. And you can pretend to "lol" all you like rather than explaining how it is not putting down women, but it is pretty clear in and of itself what it is doing.

If men and women are the same. If we are born with the same innate capabilities... why the constant need for help?

If we're all the same, why was there even any deep inequalities to begin with?

Women are not takers... they are receivers. In order for most women to get ahead in life, they require men to concede ground, make special allowances for them and MOST IMPORTANTLY give them things!

If life was a truly fair playing field, where men and women competed against each other... without any concessions or allowances made by men... women would not stand a chance of competing.

Equality is an illusion. Women compete against men, but men usually only compete against each other...

But the longer we keep giving women preferential treatment in society, the worse it will be for them when the day comes that we remove that support. It's a crutch that actually only serves to keep women as the weaker sex... the power they wield is mostly just an illusion too!

ThinkProgress wrote: »

When are some of you going to address my point?

Do you think men's position in society as the dominant gender was/is solely down to our physical advantages? Are you guys really that deluded to think that men have no other advantages or capabilities... we're all just bullies with bigger biceps? lol

And I feel I've already stated my position on the issues you're referring to.

Don't you think the fact women had no vote, no education etc is a fairly big sign that they were not born with exactly the same capabilities as men?

If men and women had the same innate capabilities from birth, why did women need to be given everything that they've gotten in recent history? Why can't they take anything for themselves...?

Even now, many years after those early struggles, women are still being GIVEN things. Being GIVEN favorable/preferential treatment... affirmative action, quotas etc...

If men and women are the same. If we are born with the same innate capabilities... why the constant need for help?

If we're all the same, why was there even any deep inequalities to begin with?

Women are not takers... they are receivers. In order for most women to get ahead in life, they require men to concede ground, make special allowances for them and MOST IMPORTANTLY give them things!

If life was a truly fair playing field, where men and women competed against each other... without any concessions or allowances made by men... women would not stand a chance of competing.

Equality is an illusion. Women compete against men, but men usually only compete against each other...

But the longer we keep giving women preferential treatment in society, the worse it will be for them when the day comes that we remove that support. It's a crutch that actually only serves to keep women as the weaker sex... the power they wield is mostly just an illusion too!

Why did women need to be given things? If I was to answer in terms as simplistic as yours, because men took them. In the past, men used their biological advantages - being taller, faster and stronger, to control women. You're right in that there is no specific reason why women should have been GIVEN the vote, it should never have been men's to give us. But they took it, so we had no choice.

I've been GIVEN none of my success in life by men and I resent the implication. I competed against men in college and stood my ground, I beat men at interview for the job I have and for others.

And here's the kicker, for daring to say this, I'll be labeled a feminazi who just needs to get laid.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Why did women need to be given things? If I was to answer in terms as simplistic as yours, because men took them. In the past, men used their biological advantages - being taller, faster and stronger, to control women. You're right in that there is no specific reason why women should have been GIVEN the vote, it should never have been men's to give us. But they took it, so we had no choice.

I've been GIVEN none of my success in life by men and I resent the implication. I competed against men in college and stood my ground, I beat men at interview for the job I have and for others.

And here's the kicker, for daring to say this, I'll be labeled a feminazi who just needs to get laid.

So you don't need feminism or any adjustments to the current state of equality then.

You are doing fine already.

ThinkProgress wrote: »

When are some of you going to address my point?

Do you think men's position in society as the dominant gender was/is solely down to our physical advantages? Are you guys really that deluded to think that men have no other advantages or capabilities... we're all just bullies with bigger biceps? lol

And I feel I've already stated my position on the issues you're referring to.

Don't you think the fact women had no vote, no education etc is a fairly big sign that they were not born with exactly the same capabilities as men?

If men and women had the same innate capabilities from birth, why did women need to be given everything that they've gotten in recent history? Why can't they take anything for themselves...?

Even now, many years after those early struggles, women are still being GIVEN things. Being GIVEN favorable/preferential treatment... affirmative action, quotas etc...

If men and women are the same. If we are born with the same innate capabilities... why the constant need for help?

If we're all the same, why was there even any deep inequalities to begin with?

Women are not takers... they are receivers. In order for most women to get ahead in life, they require men to concede ground, make special allowances for them and MOST IMPORTANTLY give them things!

If life was a truly fair playing field, where men and women competed against each other... without any concessions or allowances made by men... women would not stand a chance of competing.

Equality is an illusion. Women compete against men, but men usually only compete against each other...

But the longer we keep giving women preferential treatment in society, the worse it will be for them when the day comes that we remove that support. It's a crutch that actually only serves to keep women as the weaker sex... the power they wield is mostly just an illusion too!

This whole idea hinges on how we consider weakness, advantage, dominance etc.

I'd say it's largely irrelevant to compare one gender to the other in terms of success because, traditionally, both employ different strategies to achieve success and both achieve success in abundance.

As a species, Homo Sapiens are successful. If you take away the males then the species fails and faces extinction. If you take away the females then the same thing happens.

It was always a team effort and it always will be a team effort.

I see a response to you saying that men used their biological advantages to control women and to take more than their fair share. This is absolute nonsense.

The way I see it, men and women have generally cooperated and this cooperation has driven the development and advancement of the human species.

Yeah, I have to concede the point that we are not "equal". We are a sexually dimorphic species so it is self evident that males and females will never ever be equal because they are not the same.

There is no such thing as the "dominant" gender however because the success of any gender is entirely dependent on the other. If we stopped cooperating then things would start to break apart.