Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

Wibbs · 23-03-2016 12:39AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry but that kind of withdrawal from argument does your argument no favors.

Standard operational type stuff.

TBH I tend to work on the general principle of breaking folks down into broad categories; People(the vast majority, thank God/Fate/Whatever you're having) and "Bros" and "Chicks". Hell, I have checklists for both that I can tick off in order of daftness. Nerd that I am. Patriarchy, rape culture, red pill, hypergamy, all the usual childishly binary simplistic guff. Just as most of these "manosphere" muppets have their head squarely up their tracts, so do most of these new wave "feminists". Not so much you can do with either of these groups really. Meh. Bro's gonna bro, Chick's gonna chick.

dark crystal · 23-03-2016 12:41AM

Serious bang of deja vu in this thread....

These gender pissing contests never end in a happy concensus. Ever.

I think we should just blame feminism for everything bad that ever happens to men and be done with it, seeing as the evil feminazis make all the laws, run all the countries, own the world media and all that guff.

The 'F' word has become the dirtiest word on Boards at this stage.

hatrickpatrick · 23-03-2016 12:41AM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

But look at the context. The person who recorded him was his friend, and Hulk Hogan was having sex with the friend's wife. It was not like a guy posting revenge porn pictures of a woman he was pissed off with.

No, it was a guy posting revenge porn pictures of a guy he was pissed off with.

Had the sharing of the video been aimed at shaming his wife rather than shaming Hogan, do you think feminists would still have not been outspoken about it?

Well as a woman, I feel the same about the spite that gets thrown online at women, funnily enough. Maybe we should all work together?

Absolutely. But I still think there's a distinction to be made between mainstream, published media and self published social media / forum chatter. The former holds a double standard with regard to what is acceptable to write about a person or group, depending on the gender of the target. And that's entirely wrong.

It does cut both ways as well, I find it appalling in this day and age that womens' dress sense is still commented upon in political debates etc. But again, that gets widespread scrutiny and condemnation from other parts of the mainstream media. Widespread misandry does not.

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 12:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah right so he did it for the lulz so it's alright. Strangely enough when the made up story about the UCD lads was doing the rounds it was doing it for the lulz which was the made up issue.

It is not all right at all but I don't know why it would be something to be commented on by feminists?

And the reason I think that is because I do not believe feminists are interested in equality - they are just interested in women's rights. I think a lot of feminism is pure crap too.

hatrickpatrick · 23-03-2016 12:43AM

dark crystal wrote: »

I think we should just blame feminism for everything bad that ever happens to men and be done with it, seeing as the evil feminazis make all the laws, run all the countries, own the world media and all that guff.

Nobody has ever claimed that, but nice strawman.

I would claim however that feminism does use the media to push a toxic agenda which as a young boy growing up in the 2000s I found almost impossible to avoid exposure to and which I imagine must be a living nightmare for today's media-conscious teenagers.

jimgoose · 23-03-2016 12:44AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Nobody has ever claimed that, but nice strawman.

I would claim however that feminism does use the media to push a toxic agenda which as a young boy growing up in the 2000s I found almost impossible to avoid exposure to and which I imagine must be a living nightmare for today's media-conscious teenagers.

True enough - I'm 44, and the worst effect on me so far is that the word "Feminazi" gives me a stiffy.

hatrickpatrick · 23-03-2016 12:45AM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

I do not believe feminists are interested in equality - they are just interested in women's rights.

And there's nothing wrong with that! Really, if feminists want to focus on womens' rights and believe that having separate movements for the rights of each gender, personally it's not something I agree with as the best tactic, but there's nothing wrong with it.

What is wrong though is how so many feminists attack the mens' rights movement and say "if you're interested in equality, you're a feminist" - and then shut down any discussion of mens' issues on feminist forums and spaces. What they're actually saying is "there's no room for discussion of men getting discriminated against unless it fits our narrative that it's ultimately mens' fault and women are the real victims", and that's not cool at all.

steddyeddy · 23-03-2016 12:46AM

Basically my problem is you cannot treat women and men as a homogeneous group like some feminists do and assign them as lacking inequality on the basis of their gender.

It is really unrealistic to assign men who are not homogeneous in all variables to being privileged relative to all women.

For example feminists often mention STEM subjects and the relative lack of women in science. First of all lack of women in science does not automatically point to oppression or discrimination. It could be lack of participation.

Anyway lets go back to the equality. People who talk about equal rights for men and women are seem to be under the assumption that the predominant variable here is gender.

A white middle class woman has far more chance at entering a STEM field than a poor black male in America. Likewise a woman from Foxrock will have far greater opportunities than a young lad from Coolock whose parents are on the dole.

That's why I cannot label myself as supporting one gender. You cannot assume anything at all about what gender is more oppressed without knowing more of the facts.

dark crystal · 23-03-2016 12:46AM

jimgoose wrote: »

True enough - I'm 44, and the worst effect on me so far is that the word "Feminazi" gives me a stiffy.

That should make up for the fact they went and banned Page 3 on ye :P

jimgoose · 23-03-2016 12:47AM

dark crystal wrote: »

That should make up for the fact they went and banned Page 3 on ye :P

Page 3 was always crap. Feminazis are great, Ted!

hatrickpatrick · 23-03-2016 12:47AM

jimgoose wrote: »

True enough - I'm 44, and the worst effect on me so far is that the word "Feminazi" gives me a stiffy.

What do you imagine it's like for a pubescent boy growing up right now and having to see articles in the media and on Facebook every day about how crappy men are?

How do you imagine it affects a young teenage guy in an emotionally abusive relationship, when every stereotype and every advertising campaign for domestic violence portrays the man as the default villain? (I can attest to this one, it's psychologically soul destroying and caused me an unimaginable amount of damage)

ThinkProgress · 23-03-2016 12:48AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Anything to say about Thinkprogress's vile opinions or are you going to just double-down like hatrickpatrick?

You people just keep on making my point for me...

All I stated were facts, and I'm a misogynist...?

Yet you (and others) make the highly ignorant and disrespectful suggestion that men's position as a gender in this society is solely down to our muscles and physical force...

How by anyone's definition is that anything other than blatant misandry at it finest and most foolish? lol

I'm damn glad I have a strong sense of humor, so I can laugh at this stuff.... Because I'd sure hate to be one of those unfortunate people who take you feminists or the horsesh*t you say seriously!

maudgonner · 23-03-2016 12:49AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Most headlines are chosen by.the editor.of a paper over the wishes of.a journalist and solely for.the purposes.of increasing page views

To be honest I'd have issues with some of the body of that article as well as the headline.

While I give her some benefit of the doubt due to her circumstances, I'd take issue with lines such as:
"I am angry that I feel I have to cajole my man pals into caring."

As if decent guys, friends of hers, don't care about violence against women, and in particular the violence that was inflicted on her? I'd find that insulting if I was a man. I'd find it incredibly hurtful if I was her friend.

jimgoose · 23-03-2016 12:51AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What do you imagine it's like for a pubescent boy growing up right now and having to see articles in the media and on Facebook every day about how crappy men are?

How do you imagine it affects a young teenage guy in an emotionally abusive relationship, when every stereotype and every advertising campaign for domestic violence portrays the man as the default villain? (I can attest to this one, it's psychologically soul destroying and caused me an unimaginable amount of damage)

I'm truly, deeply sorry. But what we're talking about here is child abuse, is it not? And some men need to strap on a pair and step up. Leave my leather-clad Valkyries alone!

Quazzie · 23-03-2016 12:55AM

jimgoose wrote: »

I'm truly, deeply sorry. But what we're talking about here is child abuse, is it not? And some men need to strap on a pair and step up. Leave my leather-clad Valkyries alone!

Talk like that kills more young men every year than car crashes.

jimgoose · 23-03-2016 12:58AM

Quazzie wrote: »

Talk like that kills more young men every year than car crashes.

I do apologise for how that read. I mean to say, the way some men abdicate responsibility is a significant contributor to the next generation of young men growing up without proper example and instruction.

Permabear · 23-03-2016 01:00AM

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hatrickpatrick · 23-03-2016 01:01AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Most headlines are chosen by.the editor.of a paper over the wishes of.a journalist and solely for.the purposes.of increasing page views

Good thing I wasn't attacking the journalist or indeed the paper then, I was attacking the culture of "man shaming" that's going on at the moment wherein it's seen as perfectly acceptable for the media to generalise about men.

hatrickpatrick · 23-03-2016 01:02AM

jimgoose wrote: »

I'm truly, deeply sorry. But what we're talking about here is child abuse, is it not? And some men need to strap on a pair and step up. Leave my leather-clad Valkyries alone!

You've lost me I'm afraid, what do you mean? I don't think it counts as child abuse when it's another teenager doing it. It's an abusive relationship. But according to the media and even the UK government, it's only a problem when the guy is the abuser, not when he's the victim.

steddyeddy · 23-03-2016 01:07AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm not sure you know what you mean here. Are women dominating knowledge economies? I don't see how men in knowledge economies prevent women from taking up roles.

esforum · 23-03-2016 01:11AM

seamus wrote: »

Then she wrote a blog post about how she'd decided to let her toddler son watch Peppa Pig one day and the realisation hit her like a tonne of bricks - men are just as heavily subjected to stereotypes, expectations of behaviour, and discriminatory practices as women are.

Having never actually watched that show, I request an explanation

Other than this, just look at jobs typically served by one of the genders. Gardai, Army, fire typically male jobs. Assesment tests have a lower pass requirement for females than males.

Nurses, teachers, any allowance made for men?

Electric Sheep · 23-03-2016 01:13AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not sure you know what you mean here. Are women dominating knowledge economies? I don't see how men in knowledge economies prevent women from taking up roles.

They can't prevent women from taking up roles in the knowledge economies, and that makes some men angry.

Permabear · 23-03-2016 01:14AM

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steddyeddy · 23-03-2016 01:19AM

Permabear wrote: »

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I didn't reach any conclusion from what you wrote. You talked about a shift that men need to embrace then you claim it's not happening.

Then you supply a stat about education. If that's true there's nothing stopping women entering STEM subjects hence there's no problem.

steddyeddy · 23-03-2016 01:21AM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

They can't prevent women from taking up roles in the knowledge economies, and that makes some men angry.

The oft cited example is gender discrimination in finance:

In the finance world, Christine Lagarde heads up the IMF, Janet Yellen has recently become chair of the Federal Reserve, Inga Beale is the first female CEO in Lloyd's of London's 350-year history, while Sherry Coutu and Joanna Shields have ended the male monopoly on the London Stock Exchange's board. We're good at citing examples of women in influential posts, but in reality, women hold only 14% of board seats and 2% of CEO positions (pdf) in the financial services despite making up 60% of its global workforce. In the absence of quotas, can anything really change?

It may be true that women are underrepresented in top finance jobs but is that due to them being held back by angry men?

Permabear · 23-03-2016 01:22AM

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steddyeddy · 23-03-2016 01:24AM

Permabear wrote: »

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Doesn't surprise me.

Electric Sheep · 23-03-2016 01:26AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The oft cited example is gender discrimination in finance:

In the finance world, Christine Lagarde heads up the IMF, Janet Yellen has recently become chair of the Federal Reserve, Inga Beale is the first female CEO in Lloyd's of London's 350-year history, while Sherry Coutu and Joanna Shields have ended the male monopoly on the London Stock Exchange's board. We're good at citing examples of women in influential posts, but in reality, women hold only 14% of board seats and 2% of CEO positions (pdf) in the financial services despite making up 60% of its global workforce. In the absence of quotas, can anything really change?

It may be true that women are underrepresented in top finance jobs but is that due to them being held back by angry men?

No, the angry men can't hold them back, that is why they are angry. I work in IT in the financial sector, and the male/female split is mostly about 50/50, with women actually taking more management roles than men. This is in the US, I can't speak for the situation in Ireland.

Most people, male or female, are not going to get board seats or CEO jobs.

Permabear · 23-03-2016 01:27AM

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silverharp · 23-03-2016 01:29AM

Permabear wrote: »

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You need to parse that a bit, the knowledge economy is going to be split into the producing side and the service side. Men I think will tend to dominate the producing side

If its anything like the US there seems to be rumblings about studying expensive degrees that dont increase your earning power at the end of it. Also big spending areas like health , education and the government itself might be trimmed in the years ahead which would hit women more. No tenure for you Ms Click to carry on your research into twilight fans :pac:

Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

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