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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #7082
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    I gotten to know plenty. More than I would have liked. Nothing crushes your optimism like your Afghani co-worker telling you in all seriousness how it's okay to have sex with an 11 year old once she's got her period.

    Yet if someone told you a positive story about someone Muslim you would write it off as "didn't happen, they don't exist".

    If that is what you would do, then your anecdotal evidence can only assumed to be false and baseless. Sorry.

    Now get to work on that list.


  • #7083
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    I gave you a big list of differences. "LALALALA I DIDN'T SEE THEM NEVER HAPPENED" is not countering the list I gave you. Get to work.

    I said name one. You haven't pin pointed one to defeat the argument that none of them are of any consequence to us as Europeans. It makes no difference to us whether they can worship at graves or not.


  • #7084
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Yet if someone told you a positive story about someone Muslim you would write it off as "didn't happen, they don't exist".

    If that is what you would do, then your anecdotal evidence can only assumed to be false and baseless. Sorry.

    Now get to work on that list.

    Name one consequential difference.


  • #7085
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    I said name one. You haven't pin pointed one to defeat the argument that none of them are of any consequence to us as Europeans. It makes no difference to us whether they can worship at graves or not.

    So you're going to pretend that list doesn't exist. Got it.

    HERE IS IT AGAIN.


  • #7086
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Name one consequential difference.

    Here's a list of them. Try tackling it.


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  • #7087
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Here's a list of them. Try tackling it.

    I'm not explaining them one by one. I want you to pick out one and show me how it defeats my argument.

    Do it now, g'lad.


  • #7088
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Here's a list of them. Try tackling it.

    Temporary unannounced Marriage
    Sunni Yes
    Shia No, termed as adultery

    Does this matter to us Billy? Does it really?

    Your turn.


  • #7089
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    I'm not explaining them one by one.

    Exactly. You'd rather just ignore they even exist.

    Thanks for proving my point. Feel free to tackle that list at any stage if you'd like to actually follow up on your statements.


  • #7090
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Exactly. You'd rather just ignore they even exist.

    Thanks for proving my point. Feel free to tackle that list at any stage if you'd like to actually follow up on your statements.

    The burden of proof is on you to prove that a consequential difference exists. You can list a bunch of inconsequential ****e about marriages and the number of wives, but you can't prove me wrong.


  • #7091
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Temporary unannounced Marriage
    Sunni Yes
    Shia No, termed as adultery

    Does this matter to us Billy? Does it really?

    Your turn.
    If you don't care on the differences/seem to have a rather unhealthy dislike of all Muslims....do any of them make any differences??


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  • #7092
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    If you don't care on the differences/seem to have a rather unhealthy dislike of all Muslims....do any of them make any differences??

    If you'd been following since the beginning you'd know I'm referring to differences between the sects that have an affect on the West's relationship with the West.

    It has devolved into Billy showing me a list of differences which I know exist, but none of them have any implications for people outside the religion.


  • #7093
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    As soon as the burden of proof is shifted onto Billy he disappears.

    Come back Billy.

    Come back and disprove my argument.


  • #7094
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    If you'd been following since the beginning you'd know I'm referring to differences between the sects that have an affect on the West's relationship with the West.

    It has devolved into Billy showing me a list of differences which I know exist, but none of them have any implications for people outside the religion.

    Curiously enough I read the list like


    And you seemed to have glossed over the success of Islam heading where one viewed the first three calipaths (???) as a success where the other viewed them as high-jacked by hypocrites

    Given that isis are a so called calipaths (??) would these differences be an different affect on It's relationship with the west????


  • #7095
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Here's a list of them. Try tackling it.

    It would appear that list mentions no differences in how either flavour views "the west" or any difference in how "the west" should view either of them in anything outside of ecumenical matters.

    They're spelled differenly, I'll grant you that, but you could have just said that without posting the same link over and over?

    I just don't understand the resistance to the notion of "for all intents and purposes, they are the same to anyone in the real world, outside their squabble over specific matters of the faith. "


  • #7096
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Curiously enough I read the list like


    And you seemed to have glossed over the success of Islam heading where one viewed the first three calipaths (???) as a success where the other viewed them as high-jacked by hypocrites

    Given that isis are a so called calipaths (??) would these differences be an different affect on It's relationship with the west????

    In a sense it would. Strange Billy didn't read his own link.

    There's the Caliphs and there's the Ayatollahs. So the difference you refer to is a difference in leadership structure, which is what I referred to in one of my first posts on this matter.

    Two sides of the same coin.

    All it means is that Sunnis can join ISIS and Shias can join Shiite terrorist groups. There are also fewer Shias.

    Neither is necessarily less violent than the other. There is no difference in belief per se, only a difference in leadership structure. So in essence, have we less to fear from Islam because it is broken up into different sects? It seems not.

    I also did stipulate clearly in my earlier posts that I was asking for a something that directly affects us. Whether the men with guns are sent by caliphs or by ayatollahs is of little consequence. A man with a gun is a man with a gun.


  • #7097
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    In a sense it would. Strange Billy didn't read his own link.

    There's the Caliphs and there's the Ayatollahs. So the difference you refer to is a difference in leadership structure, which is what I referred to in one of my first posts on this matter.

    Two sides of the same coin.

    All it means is that Sunnis can join ISIS and Shias can join Shiite terrorist groups. There are also fewer Shias.

    Neither is necessarily less violent than the other. There is no difference in belief per se, only a difference in leadership structure. So in essence, have we less to fear from Islam because it is broken up into different sects? It seems not.

    I also did stipulate clearly in my earlier posts that I was asking for a something that directly affects us. Whether the men with guns are sent by caliphs or by ayatollahs is of little consequence. A man with a gun is a man with a gun.

    You have v.littke to fear in crowds broken into sects/groupings

    It's why Briton held onto Ireland for so long...divide and conquer....let them fight out each other


  • #7098
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    If people spent as much time/effort getting to know Muslims as they do engaging in vague bigoted rants about them online their time would be better spent??

    But sure we could all go down the road of making silly statements like yours.

    If people spent as much time/effort getting to know places where huge social change has been riven upon indigenous populations without them ever being asked their opinions, as they do on pontificating online on the motives of others... etc etc etc

    The truth is that significant parts of London and other cities are sh1tholes because they are ghettoes for large numbers of non-integrating, resource-sucking populations.

    I lived in that, and wouldn't like to see it happen here. Not even to Waterford. It has nothing to do with having a bit of banter with the boys from the Kebab House on a Saturday night.


  • #7099
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    As soon as the burden of proof is shifted onto Billy he disappears.

    Come back Billy.

    Come back and disprove my argument.

    I love how you posted this... a full five minutes after you decided the onus of proof was on me. How very, very typical of you. :pac:

    You're the one making the claim, the onus is on you. I gave you 42 examples to help you out, and you have only tackled one of them.
    walshyn93 wrote: »
    The sects don't disagree fundamentally on anything we would find important. The majority of Muslims don't even refer to themselves as being part of a particular sect.
    I would also appreciate it if you could find where over 50% of Muslims do not identify as being part of a particular sect, because Pew has have Sunni's alone at taking up at least 75% of the total Muslim population.


  • #7100
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    I love how you posted this... a full five minutes after you decided the onus of proof was on me. How very, very typical of you. :pac:

    You're the one making the claim, the onus is on you. I gave you 42 examples to help you out, and you have only tackled one of them.


    I would also appreciate it if you could find where over 50% of Muslims do not identify as being part of a particular sect, because Pew has have Sunni's alone at taking up at least 75% of the total Muslim population.

    If I make the claim God does not exist the onus is on someone else to prove otherwise.

    I am making the claim that x doesn't exist. Prove otherwise. None of the 42 examples you gave prove me wrong. If you think otherwise, point it out.

    I never said they don't identify as part of a sect. I said they identify as Muslim first. You need to read.


  • #7101
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    If I make the claim God does not exist the onus is on someone else to prove otherwise.
    No, no it's not. Make a statement, and the onus is on you to back it up. We're not in a Breitbart bubble here.
    I am making the claim that x doesn't exist. Prove otherwise. None of the 42 examples you gave prove me wrong. If you think otherwise, point it out.
    You've responded almost none of them, hence you cannot disprove them. And again, the onus is on you. Make a claim, back it up.
    I never said they don't identify as part of a sect. I said they identify as Muslim first. You need to read.
    "The majority of Muslims don't even refer to themselves as being part of a particular sect."

    You probably should learn to better articulate what it is that you're trying to get across in future.


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  • #7102
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    I think we've established, as we often do at the end of these atrocities, they the responsibility lies with Europeans in general, the dead Belgians in particular and what's needed is hugs.


  • #7103
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    No, no it's not. Make a statement, and the onus is on you to back it up. We're not in a Breitbart bubble here.

    You've responded almost none of them, hence you cannot disprove them. And again, the onus is on you. Make a claim, back it up.

    "The majority of Muslims don't even refer to themselves as being part of a particular sect."

    You probably should learn to better articulate what it is that you're trying to get across in future.

    I think any neutral observer can see your evasion for what it is.


  • #7104
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    I think we've established, as we often do at the end of these atrocities, they the responsibility lies with Europeans in general, the dead Belgians in particular and what's needed is hugs.
    I think we've established this was caused by Muslim terrorists.

    I think we've also established that some people take almost a bit of joy in these incidents, as an excuse to bash all Muslims.


  • #7105
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    I think any neutral observer can see your evasion for what it is.
    Yeah, because giving you a list of 42 differences and noting your failure to respond to them is evasiveness. Almost as evasive as asking you to actually prove your statement, perish the thought!

    And we wonder why right wingers complain about a "media bias". :rolleyes:


  • #7106
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Also out of interest, what would some differences be between Protestantism and Catholicism be is of consequence to people living in non Christian parts of the world, such as the middle east?


  • #7107
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Also out of interest, what would some differences be between Protestantism and Catholicism be is of consequence to people living in non Christian parts of the world, such as the middle east?

    Probably none.

    But then again, we're not going to start pretending that sectarian violence in Ireland was based on doctrine.


  • #7108
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Yeah, because giving you a list of 42 differences and noting your failure to respond to them is evasiveness. Almost as evasive as asking you to actually prove your statement, perish the thought!

    And we wonder why right wingers complain about a "media bias". :rolleyes:

    And not one of those differences satisfies the consequential test.


  • #7109
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,360 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    I think we've established, as we often do at the end of these atrocities, they the responsibility lies with Europeans in general, the dead Belgians in particular and what's needed is hugs.

    It was silly the other day people going around hugging people as a way of making people love each other. That's not the way to heal intercommunity animosity. Foolish to believe gestures like hugging Muslims is a solution to the current terrorist threat. Infact they could be part of the problem as they are highlighting the stereotyping of Muslims as being associated with terrorism.


  • #7110
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    And not one of those differences satisfies the consequential test.
    You replied to essentially none them, you've thus far been unable to prove your point.
    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Probably none.

    But then again, we're not going to start pretending that sectarian violence in Ireland was based on doctrine.
    So in your eyes, Protestants and Catholics all believe essentially the same thing?


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  • #7111
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    You replied to essentially none them, you've thus far been unable to prove your point.


    So in your eyes, Protestants and Catholics all believe essentially the same thing?

    No. Transubstantiation. Immaculate Conception. Predestination. Many differences. Just like Shias and Sunnis. None that are of interest to those outside the religion.

    It shouldn't be hard for you to pick ONE example. You only need one to defeat the argument. It is far more arduous for me to go explain how 42 of them are essentially irrelevant to neutrals.

    The burden of proof is on you to prove the existence of a difference that satisfies the requirements I set at the beginning of this discussion.

    If I say something doesn't exist, the burden is on the person who asserts that it does to prove it.


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