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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #7052
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    At least the Catholic Church had the decency to stage a coverup.
    A move to ban child marriages in Pakistan has been withdrawn after meeting staunch resistance from a religious body, which branded the bill as “anti-Islamic”.

    The ruling party politician who introduced the bill, Marvi Menon of the Pakistan Muslim League party, withdrew it after the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) dubbed the bill “blasphemous”.

    The CII unanimously rejected the proposed Child Marriage Restraint (Amendment) Bill 2014 on "purely religious grounds", reports The Express Tribune.

    CII Chairman Mohammad Khan Sheerani said the bill contradicted Islamic teachings.


  • #7053
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Nodin wrote: »
    Muslims can't agree the "true version", so I'm not going to think I can do one better. As the vast majority of muslims and muslim scholars think IS are wrong and don't do what they do I'll take their actions over others opnions.

    If muslims don't know what the true version of islam is, then how can they say IS is NOT the true version.

    Just because the majority say that IS is wrong doesn't make it true.

    The majority of people once believed that the earth was flat and that didn't make the earth flat, NO they were ALL WRONG


  • #7054
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Nodin wrote: »
    Muslims can't agree the "true version", so I'm not going to think I can do one better. As the vast majority of muslims and muslim scholars think IS are wrong and don't do what they do I'll take their actions over others opnions.

    You are not a mind reader. They say IS are wrong. You have no idea what they think.

    The majority of Muslims say IS is wrong just like the majority of Trump supporters say racism is wrong.

    You're suffering from cognitive dissonance.


  • #7055
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    old_aussie wrote: »
    If muslims don't know what the true version of islam is, then how can they say IS is NOT the true version.
    /.....................

    ....because they have more knowledge of the subject than the usual keyboard Koran bashers, their opinion has rather more weight.
    You are not a mind reader. They say IS are wrong. You have no idea what
    they think


    No, I'm not. You seem to be though.


  • #7056
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....because they have more knowledge of the subject than the usual keyboard Koran bashers, their opinion has rather more weight.




    No, I'm not. You seem to be though.

    Taking the public statements of the defenders of an ideology totally at odds with the value systems of the country they're in with a pinch of salt doesn't require skills in ESP.

    You don't need to be able to read minds to understand the Koran, you just need to be able to read.


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  • #7057
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Taking the public statements of the defenders of an ideology totally at odds with the value systems of the country they're in with a pinch of salt doesn't require skills in ESP.

    You don't need to be able to read minds to understand the Koran, you just need to be able to read.

    If religion was that simple there would be no sects.


  • #7058
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Nodin wrote: »
    If religion was that simple there would be no sects.

    The sects don't disagree fundamentally on anything we would find important. The majority of Muslims don't even refer to themselves as being part of a particular sect.


  • #7059
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    The problem with religion is that everyone has their own personal relationship with it. Therefore what is or isn't Islam is highly subjective.

    For example, jihad is such a broad term that could be interpreted as simply fasting or waging bloody war against infidels. At the end of the day, those in ISIS view this as legitimate Islam. Therein lies our problem.

    Radical Clerics are the foundation of all this -- feeding off disparaged and idealised youth. We need to come down hardest on them but the full effect may take another generation.

    I mean they say there's no way of knowing who the terrorists are -- but we bloody-well know of many who openly encourage them!


  • #7060
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    The sects don't disagree fundamentally on anything we would find important. The majority of Muslims don't even refer to themselves as being part of a particular sect.

    Jaysus no, sure IS just single out Shia for the craic.


  • #7061
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    The problem with religion is that everyone has their own personal relationship with it. Therefore what is or isn't Islam is highly subjective.

    For example, jihad is such a broad term that could be interpreted as simply fasting or waging bloody war against infidels. At the end of the day, those in ISIS view this as legitimate Islam. Therein lies our problem.

    Radical Clerics are the foundation of all this -- feeding off disparaged and idealised youth. We need to come down hardest on them but the full effect may take another generation.

    I mean they say there's no way of knowing who the terrorists are -- but we bloody-well know of many who openly encourage them!

    A survey not all that long ago found that about 25% of Mosques in the UK had extremist material in their libraries and bookshops. I really can't see any western government having the sack to close a quater of the Mosques in their country or tackling and prosecuting the clerics involved though.


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  • #7062
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Nodin wrote: »
    Jaysus no, sure IS just single out Shia for the craic.

    Are you able to not be sarcastic?

    A lot of people underestimate the ethnic component.

    We can't tell the difference between the ethnic groups, but they can.

    Go on some forums and you'll see threads about Persians being the superior race, everyone looking down on Afghans, etc.

    The differences between Shia and Sunni are fairly pointless (from our perspective) points of law. About the line of succession and which legal system is the divine one. There's not much variation (if any) on major doctrine. They all believe essentially the same thing.


  • #7063
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Are you able to not be sarcastic?

    A lot of people underestimate the ethnic component.

    We can't tell the difference between the ethnic groups, but they can.

    Go on some forums and you'll see threads about Persians being the superior race, everyone looking down on Afghans, etc.

    The differences between Shia and Sunni are fairly pointless (from our perspective) points of law. About the line of succession and which legal system is the divine one. There's not much variation (if any) on major doctrine. They all believe essentially the same thing.

    Are you seriously telling me that Shia doesn't persecute Sunni and vice versa over religious differences?


  • #7064
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Nodin wrote: »
    Are you seriously telling me that Shia doesn't persecute Sunni and vice versa over religious differences?

    That's a typically reductive line of argument from you Noddy. Not surprising.


  • #7065
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    That's a typically reductive line of argument from you Noddy. Not surprising.

    I'm reducing things to bare facts. Trying to say they don't clash is ridiculous.


  • #7066
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm reducing things to bare facts. Trying to say they don't clash is ridiculous.

    You know damn well that's not what I'm saying.

    You cannot name one doctrinal difference between Sunnis and Shias that has a direct impact on Islam's relationship to the West and compatibility with Western values.

    Sunnis and Shias fight over who gets to represent the religion, not what the religion is about.


  • #7067
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    The problem with religion is that everyone has their own personal relationship with it. Therefore what is or isn't Islam is highly subjective.

    For example, jihad is such a broad term that could be interpreted as simply fasting or waging bloody war against infidels. At the end of the day, those in ISIS view this as legitimate Islam. Therein lies our problem.

    Radical Clerics are the foundation of all this -- feeding off disparaged and idealised youth. We need to come down hardest on them but the full effect may take another generation.

    I mean they say there's no way of knowing who the terrorists are -- but we bloody-well know of many who openly encourage them!

    The joys of religious texts. The literal word of god can become anything from a metaphor, to no longer applies depending on who you picked out of a crowd.


  • #7068
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    You know damn well that's not what I'm saying.

    You cannot name one doctrinal difference between Sunnis and Shias that has a direct impact on Islam's relationship to the West and compatibility with Western values.

    Sunnis and Shias fight over who gets to represent the religion, not what the religion is about.

    Seeing as you are intent on disregarding me, you might read this short article before carrying on....

    "Members of the two sects have co-existed for centuries and share many fundamental beliefs and practices. But they differ in doctrine, ritual, law, theology and religious organisation."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-16047709


  • #7069
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,540 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Nodin wrote: »
    Seeing as you are intent on disregarding me, you might read this short article before carrying on....

    "Members of the two sects have co-existed for centuries and share many fundamental beliefs and practices. But they differ in doctrine, ritual, law, theology and religious organisation."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-16047709

    Nodin, is English your first language? You're missing the salient point of the other poster by a long way here.


  • #7070
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Nodin, is English your first language? You're missing the salient point of the other poster by a long way here.

    I missed it too. Please word it more simply for me, thanks.


  • #7071
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Nodin wrote: »
    Seeing as you are intent on disregarding me, you might read this short article before carrying on....

    "Members of the two sects have co-existed for centuries and share many fundamental beliefs and practices. But they differ in doctrine, ritual, law, theology and religious organisation."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-16047709

    Ridiculously vague article.

    Name one difference of any consequence.


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  • #7072
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Ridiculously vague article.

    Name one difference of any consequence.

    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Shia_vs_Sunni


  • #7073
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    Ridiculously vague article.

    Name one difference of any consequence.

    Is it not the same difference between Catholics and Protestants...practically none??
    But who would argue the westboro church is as sane as the Catholic Church....they both believe in the same lad living the clouds :confused:


  • #7074
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    http://www.diffen.com/difference/Shia_vs_Sunni

    I want you or Nodin to outline one difference that is of any consequence outside of their own petty struggles.


  • #7075
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Is it not the same difference between Catholics and Protestants...practically none??
    But who would argue the westboro church is as sane as the Catholic Church....they both believe in the same lad living the clouds :confused:

    Now you're getting it! You see, we're all different but the same - like snowflakes.

    Except others. Those others are all the same. Bastards.


  • #7076
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    I want you or Nodin to outline one difference that is of any consequence outside of their own petty struggles.
    I've given you a massive list of them there, now get to work on showing why the listed differences are not differences.


  • #7077
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Now you're getting it! You see, we're all different but the same - like snowflakes.

    Except others. Those others are all the same. Bastards.

    If people spent as much time/effort getting to know Muslims as they do engaging in vague bigoted rants about them online their time would be better spent??


  • #7078
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    Billy86 wrote: »
    I've given you a massive list of them there, now get to work on showing why the listed differences are not differences.

    I never said there were no differences. Read more carefully. Stop being obtuse.


  • #7079
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    If people spent as much time/effort getting to know Muslims as they do engaging in vague bigoted rants about them online their time would be better spent??
    Nah, they'd just find someone else to target all that pent up rage at.


  • #7080
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    walshyn93 wrote: »
    I never said there were no differences. Read more carefully. Stop being obtuse.

    I gave you a big list of differences. "LALALALA I DIDN'T SEE THEM NEVER HAPPENED" is not countering the list I gave you. Get to work.


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  • #7081
    walshyn93
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,685 ✭✭✭walshyn93


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    If people spent as much time/effort getting to know Muslims as they do engaging in vague bigoted rants about them online their time would be better spent??

    I gotten to know plenty. More than I would have liked. Nothing crushes your optimism like your Afghani co-worker telling you in all seriousness how it's okay to have sex with an 11 year old once she's got her period.


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