Nelson's Pillar

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 04:01PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

All the other statues/monuments were far, far easier to dispose of, Nelson was far bigger and higher up than the Gough, George or Queen Vic statues.

Indeed, but you would think that after nearly 50 years of Irish independence, the Pillar would and should have been seen as a historical monument, just like the Wellington Monument in Phoenix Park (and it probably was in fact by the vast majority of Dubliners.....it was just a case of a few republican fanatics taking things into their own hands).

whisky_galore · 09-03-2016 04:03PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Indeed, but you would think that after nearly 50 years of Irish independence, the Pillar would and should have been seen as a historical monument, just like the Wellington Monument in Phoenix Park (and it probably was in fact by the vast majority of Dubliners.....it was just a case of a few republican fanatics taking things into their own hands).

Not everyone had that viewpoint, and they still don't.

LordSutch · 09-03-2016 04:06PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

In 1923 they had bigger fish to fry than going about remodelling a statue.

Well indeed but that would have been so ironic. Using donated British guns to blow up Nelson. Anyway, Nelson's pillar was paid for by Irish merchants, and then some misguided IRA fella thinks he'll take it upon himself to destroy the whole thing. What a dic*

whisky_galore · 09-03-2016 04:06PM

LordSutch wrote: »

I thought they might have had have access to a portable but heavier gun? But it was just a thought.

(Such a waste blowing up the whole monument/pillar).

Oh and there's the small matter of where an artillery shell that happened to miss might end up....

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 04:08PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

It was paid for by the people of Dublin at the time using voluntary fundraising.

That's the best answer you got? So a few unionists/loyal British subjects fund a statue and all of a sudden it representative of the majority Irish Catholic population of Dublin/Ireland and has a mandate to be there? Since when does voluntary funding from a certain demograph equal a mandate? So if we go and find a few neo-nazi sympathisers in Dublin who will voluntarily pay for a statue of Hitler then that means there's a mandate to erect a statue of him in Dublin?

Now I'll ask again, seeing as you brought mandates into this, where was there a mandate from the people to put it up?

sonofenoch · 09-03-2016 04:19PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srPdl2nZB84

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 04:50PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Not everyone had that viewpoint, and they still don't.

Correct, which means we had a minority imposing their will on the majority.

If we accept the blowing up of the Pillar as legitimate, then we could nearly justify any group in 2016 blowing up any statue, monument or installation of their choosing because it irritates them.

whisky_galore · 09-03-2016 05:12PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Correct, which means we had a minority imposing their will on the majority.

If we accept the blowing up of the Pillar as legitimate, then we could nearly justify any group in 2016 blowing up any statue, monument or installation of their choosing because it irritates them.

Regardless of the politics, the blowing up of anything in the middle of a city with home-made devices where anyone can wander in and potentially get themselves killed was completely reckless.

Junkyard Tom · 09-03-2016 05:14PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Correct, which means we had a minority imposing their will on the majority.

The Anglo-Irish unionist minority imposing its will on the majority is it?

You British Empire fanboys should really keep the word 'democracy' out of your mouths.

The Golden Miller · 09-03-2016 05:24PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Correct, which means we had a minority imposing their will on the majority.

If we accept the blowing up of the Pillar as legitimate, then we could nearly justify any group in 2016 blowing up any statue, monument or installation of their choosing because it irritates them.

When did the majority ever support the pillar?

Nodin · 09-03-2016 06:01PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not just dissident republicans. There is a statue in Fairview which was built and maintained by the National Graves Association.

Sinn Fein have held rallies there as well.

Hai there again Fred. And hai sutch. Either of you getting back to me?

09-03-2016 06:24PM

Nodin wrote: »

Hai there again Fred. And hai sutch. Either of you getting back to me?

Don't hold your breath,I am actually waiting to hear their replies too.

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 06:25PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Anglo-Irish unionist minority imposing its will on the majority is it?

You British Empire fanboys should really keep the word 'democracy' out of your mouths.

I'm reading that there were plans to replace Lord Nelson with a statue of Patrick Pearse. I would have been absolutely fine with that and it would have been quite fitting given the location. Blowing up a 150 year historical monument and one of the main landmarks in Dublin was a disgusting act though.

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 06:31PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

When did the majority ever support the pillar?

There's no evidence there was a groundswell of popular opinion against it. Prior to 1965-66, there don't appear to be any reports of the Pillar being attacked or defaced by Dubliners. There was talk of replacing the statue at the top but it didn't seem to be a burning issue for Lemass or anyone else (had he known what was being planned, perhaps they would have set things in motion to replace the statue in order to preserve the pillar).

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-03-2016 06:33PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I'm reading that there were plans to replace Lord Nelson with a statue of Patrick Pearse. I would have been absolutely fine with that and it would have been quite fitting given the location. Blowing up a 150 year historical monument and one of the main landmarks in Dublin was a disgusting act though.

You'll get over it

Nodin · 09-03-2016 06:33PM

droidman123 wrote: »

Don't hold your breath,I am actually waiting to hear their replies too.

Fair enough. If it was a bit warmer we could find a nice a nice spot get a few cans or flagons while we were hangin around.....

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 06:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

Hai there again Fred. And hai sutch. Either of you getting back to me?

Nope, you can go play childish games with someone else.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 06:38PM

Nodin wrote: »

Fair enough. If it was a bit warmer we could find a nice a nice spot get a few cans or flagons while we were hangin around.....

Fairview park, maybe?

BalcombeSt4 · 09-03-2016 06:54PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Seems to have touched a nerve, have we? There is a very obvious trend by extremist fanatical elements to use force and violence to cleanse cultural and physical elements from the landscape in order to usher in a new era of said new ideology. This is nothing new.

The Soviets blew up the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in 1931, one of most important cathedrals of the Russian orthodox religion, to be replaced by a more appropriate building for Stalinism and Communism called 'The palace of the Soviets'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Christ_the_Saviour#Demolition
This was one of many examples of Soviet Russia

The Nazi's systematically tried to dismantle all traces of Judaism and 'Jewry' from Europe. People burned as well as buildings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_the_Riga_synagogues

The Chinese under Mao destroyed 6,000 monasteries and killed 1 million Tibetans under the ironic title of 'The great leap forward' and 'The cultural revolution'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#From_1950_to_present

The Taliban in 2001 blew up the Buddhas of Bamiyan as they considered them false satanic idols.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan

ISIS have been blowing up all kinds of ancient ruins over the past few years as they see them as non Islamic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_by_ISIL#Palmyra

The IRA blowing up Nelsons pilar along with other examples like Lord Gough's monument is similar to the examples used above and shows the kind of mindset behind the ideology, that Ireland had to be cleansed of all Anglo influences like it were some disease. Utterly jingoistic, utterly extreme, utter nationalist thinking.

It is noticeable that not many actually try and defend the blowing up of the statue or pilar outright as they would be accused rightly of a similar mindset of the examples I have linked above. Instead they go on about Empire, da Brits, da prods, and so on as a side ways method to try and argue indirectly that blowing up statues was in the grand scheme of things was a very good thing.

These are the same people who will go on endlessly about international treaties, laws, legal rights and human rights, once of course it suits their own agenda and ideology. However, that goes out the windows when something extra judicial happens they agree with. Just think Sinn Fein castigating, rightly the Roman Catholic Church for moving abuse victims around parishes. Yet, we only found out the past few months that Sinn Fein were doing the same thing with sex abusers. Law and order for some, extra judicial action and knee capping for others. This is the mindset of these people.

Except the IRA had nothing to do with blowing it up.

09-03-2016 06:59PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

We should certainly not take history lessons from the IRA of yesteryear. People forget that there was many a Nazi sympathiser among them, chief among those was Seán Russell who actively plotted with the Nazi's to harm both Ireland and Britain.

You don't know what you're talking about. Russell went to the Russia first before Germany and was turned away, does that many him (and the IRA of the era) communists? Of course not, Russell was a militant and didn't give two ****s about ideology apart from Republican irredentism.

He very much subscribed to the classic Fenian idea of 'Englands difficulty was Irelands opportunity' and thats what led him to Germany not a subscription to Nazism. Also you have to contextualise it too, people didnt know the true extent of Nazism and what little information that did exist was dismissed by many as propaganda, I mean the Irish people had witnessed similar propaganda issued against the IRA just two decades previously.

In terms of ideological commitments to fascism, Ireland do have some linkage, not within the IRA but through the first President of Fine Gael, Eoin O Duffy who offered to raise a battalion of Irishmen for Nazi Germany.

O'Duffy was well connected with the European fascist movement and had visited Italy and Germany on many occasions as well as attending European Fascism conferences. He and his Blueshirts went to fight democracy in Spain alongside Hitler and Mussolini while their cause and the cause of fascism was championed in the Free State parliament by Fine Gael and in particular John Dillion.

Similarly our (soon to be former) Minister for Foreign Affairs father founded Ailtirí na hAiséirghe, the Irish anti-semitic party which encouraged the Free State to 'rout the jews out of Ireland'. He and the main membership body of the party later found their way to Fine Gael.

BalcombeSt4 · 09-03-2016 07:03PM

The flying mouse wrote: »

You are right it was not the IRA who blew it up, don't think t was the littlejohns either,,,

Littlejohn had been dishonourably discharged from the Parachute Regiment. He served three years for robbery before being released from prison in 1968 from which time he worked as a car dealer.

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiJ8IX-2bLLAhXqZpoKHQM8BYIQFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKenneth_Littlejohn&usg=AFQjCNF_RRS5ZmFR2-NVLMdrbcpaw5a9zg&sig2=bEBTpNoFe8f-9JLHmtHjtg

That's right it wasn't the Littlejohns they were firebombing police stations a few years later tho.

The UVF/UPV were blowing up Wolfe Tone & Daniel O'Connell around the South around the same they were blowing up water works up North & blaming them on the IRA until one UVF muppet fried himself alive trying to blow up a hydroelectrics plant in Dublin.

Nodin · 09-03-2016 07:36PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nope, you can go play childish games with someone else.

It's an honest legitimate question Fred, and you avoiding it paints you in a bad light.

Fratton Fred · 09-03-2016 07:48PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's an honest legitimate question Fred, and you avoiding it paints you in a bad light.

No it isn't, you're just trolling.

nacho libre · 09-03-2016 08:02PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No it isn't, you're just trolling.

How is it not a fair question? You, and other people championing the British empire, were asked a direction question about what is there to glorify about the British empire? By accusing him of trolling, it comes across as you are just avoiding the question because you don't want to answer it. That's childish carry on.

Nodin · 09-03-2016 08:10PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No it isn't, you're just trolling.

No Fred, its just me asking you (and others) why the Empire shouldn't be glorified. You said it shouldn't be, and I've no argument with that, but you won't say why, which is odd.

maryishere · 09-03-2016 08:13PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Yeap! Defacing, vandalising or blowing up statues on a whim without any democratic mandate, debate or discussion is the hobby of dickheads and **** from both extreme ends of the spectrum. All the same sides of the coin who profess they are doing it for the good of the people. Knobs the lot of them, from ISIS to the Taliban, to Mao and the IRA idiots who have fanboys here.

If you have an opinion then by all means air it and convince people like mature adults. Don't go off and blow something up cause you want to. Are you a thug or civilised.

Well said. It was also a miracle nobody was killed or seriously injured when the bomb went off and the street below was covered in rubble. No warning was given. The fellow who planted the bomb admits he deliberately went home and fell asleep until the next day. Suppose there had been a group of people walking nearby, as was often the case in the capitals main street, killed? Suppose the result in human terms was like Enniskillen or Omagh. Do the same fans of the IRA here condone Enniskillen and Omagh too?

Nodin · 09-03-2016 08:15PM

maryishere wrote: »

Well said. It was also a miracle nobody was killed or seriously injured when the bomb went off and the street below was covered in rubble. No warning was given. The fellow who planted the bomb admits he deliberately went home and fell asleep until the next day. Suppose there had been a group of people walking nearby, as was often the case in the capitals main street, killed? Suppose the result in human terms was like Enniskillen or Omagh. Do the same fans of the IRA here condone Enniskillen and Omagh too?

Suppose aliens invaded. Suppose the post stopped. Suppose cats develop opposable thumbs.

maryishere · 09-03-2016 08:21PM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

When did the majority ever support the pillar?

Most Dubliners, and many tourists, had been up in the pillar and had admired the tremendous unrivalled view from above the main street, over the rest of Dublin. It was part of Dublin.

maryishere · 09-03-2016 08:23PM

Nodin wrote: »

Suppose aliens invaded. Suppose the post stopped. Suppose cats develop opposable thumbs.

You did not answer the question. Do you support the Omagh and Enniskillen bombers too?

Strazdas · 09-03-2016 08:23PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You'll get over it

For sure. Within four or five years, the same people and their ilk were blowing up a lot more than monuments, which in the general scheme of things is a lot more serious.

Nelson's Pillar

Comments