No refund for families who have paid water charges

Water John · 08-03-2016 05:51PM

F34, thought so. Do the LA's hand it over now to IW? They in turn are then paid by IW for mending leaks etc?

Godge · 08-03-2016 05:55PM

Water John wrote: »

No problem with Tom Collins, Godge. Just he is a go to guy for Government when something awkward has to be chaired.

Don't know much about him, can you expand? What other awkward things has he chaired?

Water John · 08-03-2016 06:10PM

Well, he chaired the National Rural Water Monitoring Programme. This was where many of the private group water schemes were failing tests and needed to be upgraded. Politically tricky area.
Nothing wrong with him. But he is appointed by the Gov to chair a body supposed to represent consumers, I think, in this case.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/water/irish-water-crisis/bill-boycotters-will-be-invited-to-join-irish-water-consumer-forum-31544003.html

He would be very good at nullifying discontent.
As he sort of admits in the article himself, he is trying to close a stable door after the horse has bolted.

Again I point out, I agree with water charges and with a national water authority.

oscarBravo · 08-03-2016 07:18PM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Ridiculous post.

What a carefully argued rebuttal.

Nice caveat on the "if" though - very Enda-esque.

What?

Water isn't being paid for through billing...

It's not being fully paid for through billing, no. It's being partly paid for by those who pay their bills, and the rest is paid for through general taxation.

I never claimed it was being fully paid for through billing, however, so I'm not sure what the point of that particular straw man argument is.

The issue is that in order to sell the scam the TDs lied that those not paying the bills "wanted it for free", when the facts are that we are paying multiple ways.

If you want to make the case that people have no problem paying for water, you might want to rethink the "can't pay, won't pay" slogan.

gladrags · 08-03-2016 08:50PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I never claimed it was being fully paid for through billing, however, so I'm not sure what the point of that particular straw man argument is...

If you want to make the case that people have no problem paying for water, you might want to rethink the "can't pay, won't pay" slogan.

Ironically,it is the simple logical perspectives that count.

The can't pay,won't pay slogan,has slain all the hypocrisies, of the monster that is IW.

Keep it simple,and let the others do the bullsh*****".

oscarBravo · 08-03-2016 09:10PM

gladrags wrote: »

Ironically,it is the simple logical perspectives that count.

The can't pay,won't pay slogan,has slain all the hypocrisies, of the monster that is IW.

Keep it simple,and let the others do the bullsh*****".

I don't know what any of that means.

Jack Killian · 08-03-2016 11:22PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

What a carefully argued rebuttal. What? It's not being fully paid for through billing, no. It's being partly paid for by those who pay their bills, and the rest is paid for through general taxation.

I never claimed it was being fully paid for through billing, however, so I'm not sure what the point of that particular straw man argument is.

You didn't. The government and Irish Water did.

If you want to make the case that people have no problem paying for water, you might want to rethink the "can't pay, won't pay" slogan.

I have no control over other people's slogans, particularly those with whom I have no association.

Going Forward · 08-03-2016 11:51PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's not being fully paid for through billing, no.

It's being partly paid for by those who pay their bills, and the rest is paid for through general taxation.

And commercial charges.

But in relation to domestic charges, the combination of new costs involved in collecting them, along with the grant, appear to be very close to what they are intended to be raising, thereby seriously negating any claim that the portion which is being collected is going towards water services.

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 12:13AM

Jack Killian wrote: »

You didn't. The government and Irish Water did.

They claimed that the cost of water was being fully met through billing? Do you have a source for that?

Jack Killian · 09-03-2016 02:20AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

They claimed that the cost of water was being fully met through billing? Do you have a source for that?

One example :

http://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Speeches/Private_Member%E2%80%99s_Business_speech_on_Domestic_water_charges_and_Irish_Water_-_Minister_Alan_Kelly.html

Of course another inconsistency is that that approximately 20% of the Irish population have already been paying for their water.

What does he think the other 80% were doing ?

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2012/02/10/ireland-charge-for-water/

Our current model of water provision, where unlimited quantities of an expensive product are provided at no charge.....

There are loads of others - including government sheep and many pros on this and previous IW threads - who have levelled the accusation of "spongers" at those who refuse to pay IW.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2016 10:00AM

Geuze wrote: »

In a sense, it does.

All LPT and all motor tax is paid into the LGF, Local Govt Fund.

The LGF makes grants to local councils.

So all your LPT and motor tax goes to local councils, yes.

In the past some of the grants were used by councils to run water services.

Now councils get less grants, but the LGF pays a subvention to IW, to help pay for water services.

So when you hear that water is still partly paid for by taxation, this is what is meant - the LGF make a 439m subvention to IW.

The IW charges are not enough to cover the costs of all 1,000+ water plants.

http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/local_government_fund_accounts_2014_-_english.pdf

IIRC the legislation for Motor Tax clearly allocates (ring-fences) 5% of monies collected to provision of water.

I'm not saying necessarily what you're saying is incorrect, just clarifying the issue vis-a-vis Motor Tax.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2016 10:05AM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Ridiculous post. Nice caveat on the "if" though - very Enda-esque.

Water isn't being paid for through billing, and is still getting LPT.

The issue is that in order to sell the scam the TDs lied that those not paying the bills "wanted it for free", when the facts are that we are paying multiple ways.

I think you're more than slightly confused by this whole thing. So let me break it down:

Say provision of water costs €3bn p.a.

The government needs to (pursuant to the WFD) implement some level of consumption charges, but they don't want to bill individual households for the full amount (i.e. we have either "allowances" or "capped rates").

Say commercial rates bring in €1bn p.a. and, as a result of subsidy via "allowances" or "capped rates", domestic charges bring in €1bn p.a.; that leaves €1bn to be paid to cover the subsidy... someone has to pay for that! That someone is the government through taxation.

They need to get to €3bn somehow - subsidisation costs money - and that money has to come from somewhere.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2016 10:10AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

A pipe burst at the top of my road 3 week ago. The local authority (Fingal County Council) came out to repair it. Are they getting paid twice? Once by the council and once by IW?? Or is IW a huge white elephant that cost billions to set up while the local authorities still carry out the grunt work.

What are you talking about? Are who getting paid twice, the individual workers that come out to your road?

If IW is paying the local authority to carry out repair works in a specific area, IW are paying the local authority. The local authority then uses the money they collected from LPT for other things.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2016 10:12AM

Going Forward wrote: »

And commercial charges.

But in relation to domestic charges, the combination of new costs involved in collecting them, along with the grant, appear to be very close to what they are intended to be raising, thereby seriously negating any claim that the portion which is being collected is going towards water services.

1) I believe it was always anticipated savings (or more accurately reinvestment) would occur down the line;
2) I don't believe anyone anticipated the extreme abreaction to the billing which has increased costs for collection.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2016 10:13AM

Jack Killian wrote: »

One example :

http://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Speeches/Private_Member%E2%80%99s_Business_speech_on_Domestic_water_charges_and_Irish_Water_-_Minister_Alan_Kelly.html

What does he think the other 80% were doing ?

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2012/02/10/ireland-charge-for-water/

There are loads of others - including government sheep and many pros on this and previous IW threads - who have levelled the accusation of "spongers" at those who refuse to pay IW.

Where does that say that the cost of water was/is being fully met through billing? Certainly not in the quote that you picked out randomly.

PS: it would appear to me that he is certainly talking about 20% of people paying for water through GWS or wells, not Irish Water.

Jack Killian · 09-03-2016 10:32AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I think you're more than slightly confused by this whole thing. So let me break it down:

Say provision of water costs €3bn p.a.

The government needs to (pursuant to the WFD) implement some level of consumption charges, but they don't want to bill individual households for the full amount (i.e. we have either "allowances" or "capped rates").

Say commercial rates bring in €1bn p.a. and, as a result of subsidy via "allowances" or "capped rates", domestic charges bring in €1bn p.a.; that leaves €1bn to be paid to cover the subsidy... someone has to pay for that! That someone is the government through taxation.

They need to get to €3bn somehow - subsidisation costs money - and that money has to come from somewhere.

I'm not the one who's confused - take it up with the ignorant TDs & ministers that spouted those lies.

As for the income from commercial rates - do you have a link for that ?

Jack Killian · 09-03-2016 10:35AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Where does that say that the cost of water was/is being fully met through billing? Certainly not in the quote that you picked out randomly.

PS: it would appear to me that he is certainly talking about 20% of people paying for water through GWS or wells, not Irish Water.

I know well that he is talking about us; the question was "what does he reckon the other 80% are doing?".

If they'd not come out with "ye can't expect it for free" and if they hadn't misappropriated the "80% of LPT is for local services" then the issue wouldn't have arisen.

Water John · 09-03-2016 12:04PM

I was surprised it took so long for the protest to bubble up, sorry couldn't resist the pun.
EK was talking about average pay per household. I think that was €248.
What was clear from IW own surveying that actually only about 20% were €50 either side of that. So you had a very wide spread. Average was totally disingenious Many very frugal people were paying less, but 20% were going to pay over €500. With that grouping going to average €720.
Even if the left hadn't latched onto the issue this 20% were going to kick up holy war. You would want to be an idiot not to see it coming.

FreudianSlippers · 09-03-2016 12:12PM

Jack Killian wrote: »

I'm not the one who's confused - take it up with the ignorant TDs & ministers that spouted those lies.

I'm sorry, but you quite clearly are very confused. No amount of deflection is going to fix that.

As for the income from commercial rates - do you have a link for that ?

Clearly hypothetical example, but I believe commercial rates are something not too far off that. I'm sure the CER has this information

Jack Killian wrote: »

I know well that he is talking about us; the question was "what does he reckon the other 80% are doing?".

If they'd not come out with "ye can't expect it for free" and if they hadn't misappropriated the "80% of LPT is for local services" then the issue wouldn't have arisen.

No, I'm sorry. You said he government and Irish Water claimed that cost of water was/is being fully met through billing - you were asked to support that claim.

Discussions about wells or GWS are irrelevant to this claim.

Jack Killian · 09-03-2016 01:56PM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you quite clearly are very confused. No amount of deflection is going to fix that.

It seems that you are the one who refuses to acknowledge facts and are deflecting from the fact that the government were at fault.

The above post of yours is pretty obnoxious in contradicting me and implying that I am "quite clearly" confused - are you always that obnoxious and dismissive when trying to deflect blame ?

Clearly hypothetical example, but I believe commercial rates are something not too far off that. I'm sure the CER has this information

So no facts to back up your claim then ? Grand so.

Here's one that might put the "pay for what you use" into perspective; not only are they using it, but they're profiting from it:

http://www.right2water.ie/sites/default/files/media/FOI-Requests_0.pdf

No, I'm sorry. You said he government and Irish Water claimed that cost of water was/is being fully met through billing - you were asked to support that claim.

It's been said often enough in the media, and all the pros on here labelled objectors as "spongers"; are you admitting that they are NOT actually "spongers", and that there is no justification for calling them/us that ?

Discussions about wells or GWS are irrelevant to this claim.

The discussion said that those 20% are paying for their water, thereby implying that the others aren't.

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 02:02PM

Forgive the nested quotes, but someone's confused here:

Jack Killian wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

Jack Killian wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

I never claimed it was being fully paid for through billing...

You didn't. The government and Irish Water did.

They claimed that the cost of water was being fully met through billing? Do you have a source for that?

One example :

http://merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/Speeches/Private_Member%E2%80%99s_Business_speech_on_Domestic_water_charges_and_Irish_Water_-_Minister_Alan_Kelly.html

Of course another inconsistency is that that approximately 20% of the Irish population have already been paying for their water.

What does he think the other 80% were doing ?

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2012/02/10/ireland-charge-for-water/

Our current model of water provision, where unlimited quantities of an expensive product are provided at no charge.....

There are loads of others - including government sheep and many pros on this and previous IW threads - who have levelled the accusation of "spongers" at those who refuse to pay IW.

So you claimed that the government have stated that the cost of water is being fully met through billing. You haven't backed up that claim.

Jack Killian · 09-03-2016 02:10PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Forgive the nested quotes, but someone's confused here:

So you claimed that the government have stated that the cost of water is being fully met through billing. You haven't backed up that claim.

http://www.thejournal.ie/eric-byrne-gerry-adams-sponger-2011159-Mar2015/

Sponger: "makes no effort to pay for anything themselves"

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/sponger

No "already pays part" there.

trixychic · 09-03-2016 02:13PM

I have only read the first 2 pages and the last 2 pages...

I was paying my first few bills but the last 2 bills that arrived have not been paid and they certainly won't be now.

I'm not against water charges but the way it was done in this country is a joke and ridiculous. While the future of the charges are uncertain the money will be staying with me!!!

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 03:14PM

Jack Killian wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/eric-byrne-gerry-adams-sponger-2011159-Mar2015/

Sponger: "makes no effort to pay for anything themselves"

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/sponger

No "already pays part" there.

You keep deflecting a simple question with answers to something that, as far as I can see, nobody has asked.

Third time: you've claimed that the government has said that the cost of supplying water is fully met through billing. Are you going to back up this claim, admit you were wrong, or deflect the question yet again?

Jack Killian · 09-03-2016 06:26PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

You keep deflecting a simple question with answers to something that, as far as I can see, nobody has asked.

Confused now, since basic English doesn't seem to be getting through to you.

Third time: you've claimed that the government has said that the cost of supplying water is fully met through billing. Are you going to back up this claim, admit you were wrong, or deflect the question yet again?

See the link. Labour TD. One of many who slandered those not paying IW.

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 07:01PM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Confused now, since basic English doesn't seem to be getting through to you.

See the link. Labour TD. One of many who slandered those not paying IW.

I'm not talking about spongers. I'm not talking about people who do or don't pay. I'm not talking about any of the things you seem to keep trying to deflect the question with.

Fourth time asking, now: you've claimed that the government has said that the cost of supplying water is fully met through billing. Can you back up this claim? Ideally without trying to change the subject yet again?

Jack Killian · 09-03-2016 07:06PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not talking about spongers. I'm not talking about people who do or don't pay. I'm not talking about any of the things you seem to keep trying to deflect the question with.

Fourth time asking, now: you've claimed that the government has said that the cost of supplying water is fully met through billing. Can you back up this claim? Ideally without trying to change the subject yet again?

Government TDs referred to people as spongers

Jesus Christ can you not read English, or are you being deliberately obnoxious ?

How can someone be referred to as a "sponger" for not paying part of the cost of their water ?

listermint · 09-03-2016 07:10PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Forgive the nested quotes, but someone's confused here:

So you claimed that the government have stated that the cost of water is being fully met through billing. You haven't backed up that claim.

No but theyre regulator signalled a full opening for price increases.

You and the rest of the crew in here defending this mess of a company know full well the averg family will have bills in the region of 700 to 1000euro for water. Thats the end goal here sugaring it up with words like civic duty and all that fluffy nonsense the OP harped on about won't hide that .

Moral of the story here is sort out your house first before you come asking me for more bloody money and yes I mean more between lpt and paye all these local services we were told we were covering we aren't getting.

Workers pockets are not endless.

Get off the stage.

Full Marx · 09-03-2016 07:14PM

Im gonna have a good laugh at the suckers who paid their water charges (those who berated or criticised those who didnt) who wont see a penny of it back. You should have hung on until after the election to see what the lay of the land was.

oscarBravo · 09-03-2016 08:04PM

Jack Killian wrote: »

Government TDs referred to people as spongers

Jesus Christ can you not read English, or are you being deliberately obnoxious ?

How can someone be referred to as a "sponger" for not paying part of the cost of their water ?

I give up. I haven't the faintest idea what you think the question I asked you four times means, but clearly we're speaking different dialects of English.

listermint wrote: »

You and the rest of the crew in here defending this mess of a company know full well the averg family will have bills in the region of 700 to 1000euro for water.

Do you say that bills will be that much because you think (a) that's what it costs to provide water to the average family, or (b) it costs less than that, but the bills will be artificially inflated?

If (a), why do you think the average family shouldn't have to pay what it costs to provide them with water?

If (b), why?

I hope you're better at providing actual answers to simple questions than the other chap.

No refund for families who have paid water charges

Comments