Nelson's Pillar

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-03-2016 08:59PM

pablo128 wrote: »

And do you think there was no Jews, Gays or gypsies in Germany at that time? For fcuk sake I didn't even know my own brother was gay for 24 years until he told me.

WTF ?

Liberosis · 06-03-2016 08:59PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually you can bet that the Irish weren't viewed as being on par with the English.

Inequality is one of the distinctive features of colonialism in general, not just British.

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-03-2016 09:00PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually you can bet that the Irish weren't viewed as being on par with the English.

No indeed. We were provincial. But nevertheless, proud citizens of the second city of the Empire, appreciative of our national heroes, as Nelson's Column shows.

steddyeddy · 06-03-2016 09:02PM

Liberosis wrote: »

Inequality is one of the distinctive features of colonialism in general, not just British.

Indeed. Which is why I dislike colonialism and justification or praise of colonialism. It's racism in action.

06-03-2016 09:07PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No indeed. We were provincial. But nevertheless, proud citizens of the second city of the Empire, appreciative of our national heroes, as Nelson's Column shows.

Pity it wasn't finished in 1808 in time for the 1798 ten year anniversary, where our national heroes killed and raped how many thousands of irish people?

steddyeddy · 06-03-2016 09:07PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No indeed. We were provincial. But nevertheless, proud citizens of the second city of the Empire, appreciative of our national heroes, as Nelson's Column shows.

That's why we're no longer part of the empire or have a statue of Nelson.

pablo128 · 06-03-2016 09:08PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

WTF ?

You know well what I'm talking about.

steddyeddy · 06-03-2016 09:09PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You cannot just deny or wipe out the role you played in, and benefits you gained from your colonial past though.
No more than the rest of the UK.

Actually all of it's benefits could have been accomplished without the racism, troubles that last to this day and murder that goes along with colonialism.

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-03-2016 09:11PM

pablo128 wrote: »

You know well what I'm talking about.

I havent a notion.

Iwasfrozen · 06-03-2016 09:12PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually all of it's benefits could have been accomplished without the racism, troubles that last to this day and murder that goes along with colonialism.

Tell me something. Is Brittany a colony of France? If not, apart from being islands what's the difference between Brittany's relation to France and Ireland's relation to Britain?

pablo128 · 06-03-2016 09:13PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I havent a notion.

Well if that's true, it might teach you not to butt in and answer a question I had asked of someone else.

Subacio · 06-03-2016 09:14PM

At least one of the bombers was from the 26 counties. Nell McCafferty named him after his death during the 1990s. A Laoisman as it happens.

A Dub in Glasgo · 06-03-2016 09:22PM

Subacio wrote: »

At least one of the bombers was from the 26 counties. Nell McCafferty named him after his death during the 1990s. A Laoisman as it happens.

According to some on here, he is a foreigner with a nationality of Northern Irish irrespective of where he was from

cajonlardo · 06-03-2016 09:25PM

Where was Joe Christle from? Was he not a Dub?

06-03-2016 09:26PM

cajonlardo wrote: »

Where was Joe Christle from? Was he not a Dub?

Pretty sure he was

The J Stands for Jay · 06-03-2016 09:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Tell me something. Is Brittany a colony of France? If not, apart from being islands what's the difference between Brittany's relation to France and Ireland's relation to Britain?

That would depend on how Brittany came to became a part of France.

buried · 06-03-2016 09:30PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

According to some on here, he is a foreigner with a nationality of Northern Irish irrespective of where he was from

Its bizarre. They believe Northern Ireland to be "foreign" yet a dead english sailor from Norfolk equates to "one of us"

The J Stands for Jay · 06-03-2016 09:32PM

maryishere wrote: »

You could say the same about the indiginous populations of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA etc ...and that is where there are tens of millions of people of Irish desent living / chose to live, in those countries invaded by those nasty Brits in their time. In the first year or 2 of WW2, Britain was alone in western Europe fighting Nazism. It is almost certain that if Britain did not fight Nazism / the Axis forces, we would be we would be speaking German, there would be no Jews, Homosexuals or Gyspies in Ireland, there would be no FDI ( Amerian factories here or Foreign Direct Investment ).

Yeah, I do say the same about those countries. Handy to emigrate to countries where they're forced to speak the same language as you were forced to learn.

There was more than just the UK fighting Nazism in the first few years of the war. They just didn't have a handy sea to keep out the panzers.

You do realise that you don't need homosexuals to produce more homosexuals?

So, youve never heard of American companies setting up in countries where they don't speak English?

Fratton Fred · 06-03-2016 09:32PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea I did. In effect it's true. Economic and export policy of Britain restricted the Irish diet.

I can imagine the O'Connells, sitting down to an evening meal in Derrynane, enjoying a four course meal of spud soup, followed by potato stew, with potato sorbet and spuds n crackers for afters.

Iwasfrozen · 06-03-2016 09:33PM

McGaggs wrote: »

That would depend on how Brittany came to became a part of France.

Through invasion and subjection.

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-03-2016 09:34PM

McGaggs wrote: »

Yeah, I do say the same about those countries. Handy to emigrate to countries where they're forced to speak the same language as you were forced to learn.

Were they emigrants, or colonists ?

signostic · 06-03-2016 09:40PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

50 years a go next week, March 8th, Nelson's Pillar was blown up on O'Connell Street by a bunch of nuts.

Was this ok in hindsight? They could have kept the pillar and replaced Nelson with a better person like Charles Haughey for example where we have yet to have a fitting memorial or Bertie Ahern when he dies.

We would have had the views over the city that the spire does not offer. Or even just kept Nelson who by some accounts was a good looking fella.

What say you?

http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2561871.1457182980!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620_330/image.jpg

Didn't read all the thread, but where is Nelson`s head right now? Was it recovered from the debris?

steddyeddy · 06-03-2016 09:42PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can imagine the O'Connells, sitting down to an evening meal in Derrynane, enjoying a four course meal of spud soup, followed by potato stew, with potato sorbet and spuds n crackers for afters.

No the O'Connell's were relatively well off. It was the poor who suffered most Fred.

Liberosis · 06-03-2016 09:46PM

signostic wrote: »

Didn't read all the thread, but where is Nelson`s head right now? Was it recovered from the debris?

To quote wikipedia:

The rubble from the monument was taken to the East Wall dump and the lettering from the plinth moved to the gardens of Butler House, Kilkenny.

Ken Dolan and six other students from the National College of Art and Design stole the statue's head on St. Patrick's Day from a storage shed in Clanbrassil Street as a fund-raising prank to pay off a Student Union debt. They leased the head for £200 a month to an antiques dealer in London for his shop window. It also appeared in a women's stocking commercial, shot on Killiney beach, and on the stage of the Olympia Theatre with The Dubliners. The students finally gave the head to the Lady Nelson of the day about six months after taking it, and it was later housed in the Civic Museum in Dublin. It now resides in Gilbert Library in Pearse Street.

Fratton Fred · 06-03-2016 09:52PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

No the O'Connell's were relatively well off. It was the poor who suffered most Fred.

But you said the native Irish were denied access to anything other than potatoes?

The J Stands for Jay · 06-03-2016 10:11PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Were they emigrants, or colonists ?

Some were emigrants, some colonists and some were slaves.

06-03-2016 10:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If Dubliners chose to remove it. They decide what a legacy of occupation is. Not you

Sorry to interrupt your latest "Weren't the Brits so kind to the Paddies" far right love-in with historical facts but "Dubliners" didn't chose to build it. Nelson's Pillar was imposed on the city in 1808 by the British colonial Lord Lieutenant, the Duke of Richmond, and the all-Protestant members of Dublin Corporation. In good British colonial tradition, there's wasn't a native to be seen around the place.

Only in a decidedly perverse understanding of democracy could that colonial monument be construed as having a "democratic" mandate. Likewise with the other symbols of colonial subjugation, such as this behemoth in St Stephen's Green, and this commemoration of William of Orange, and this one of the Famine Queen that used to be outside Dáil Éireann. All glorifications of imperialism which are now thankfully removed.

We still have some work to do, most notably by removing this glorification of mass murder by the British Empire, that commemorates 222 British Army "soldiers" in the Second Boer War (1899-1902), the same army which was responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children in British concentration camps in that war. This, too, was quickly given the name "Traitors' Gate" by both nationalists and republicans at the time.

When we've done that, let's move on to finally rename Dublin's streets after heroes of our history/Irish freedom, rather than heroes of their history/ British imperialism. Nelson's Street and Victoria Quay would be good places to start.

06-03-2016 10:25PM

diomed wrote: »

And Nelson Mandela was granted the freedom of the City of Dublin. How was that allowed?

Well, actually, Fine Gael objected to it when Sinn Féin first proposed Nelson Mandela be made a Freeman of Dublin as long ago as 1983. One of those embarrassingly far-right Fine Gael acts, like carrying out the Ballyseedy massacre in 1923 on behalf of the British Empire, and fighting for Franco and the Spanish fascists in 1937. Something about Mrs Thatcher, whose Tory party received millions of pounds per year from wealthy White South Africans in return for her British government supporting the Apartheid régime, believing Mandela was a "terrorist" and Fine Gael not wanting to offend Mrs Thatcher in 1983. Once again, Fine Gael was on the wrong side of history and Sinn Féin (and the left wing members of DCC in 1983) displayed vision.

While Fine Gael clearly had a problem with honouring Nelson Mandela, it has no such problem in honouring the mass murderers of the British Empire, with Fine Gael's Director of Elections in 2016 Brian Hayes enthusiastically advocating that British imperial monuments be put back in Dublin.

Iwasfrozen · 06-03-2016 11:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry to interrupt your latest "Weren't the Brits so kind to the Paddies" far right love-in with historical facts but "Dubliners" didn't chose to build it. Nelson's Pillar was imposed on the city in 1808 by the British colonial Lord Lieutenant, the Duke of Richmond, and the all-Protestant members of Dublin Corporation. In good British colonial tradition, there's wasn't a native to be seen around the place.

Only in a decidedly perverse understanding of democracy could that colonial monument be construed as having a "democratic" mandate. Likewise with the other symbols of colonial subjugation, such as this behemoth in St Stephen's Green, and this commemoration of William of Orange, and this one of the Famine Queen that used to be outside Dáil Éireann. All glorifications of imperialism which are now thankfully removed.

We still have some work to do, most notably by removing this glorification of mass murder by the British Empire, that commemorates 222 British Army "soldiers" in the Second Boer War (1899-1902), the same army which was responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children in British concentration camps in that war. This, too, was quickly given the name "Traitors' Gate" by both nationalists and republicans at the time.

When we've done that, let's move on to finally rename Dublin's streets after heroes of our history/Irish freedom, rather than heroes of their history/ British imperialism. Nelson's Street and Victoria Quay would be good places to start.

Being pro or anti Union can both be right wing or left wing.
There were celebrations in Dublin when Nelson's victory at Trafalgar was announced and a well attended ceremony to lay the first stone of the pillar.

Please get your facts right before you start to lecture me or anyone else about history.

P.S. your name doesn't suit, fountains are synonymous with knowledge.

Sweetemotion · 06-03-2016 11:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Being pro or anti Union can both be right wing or left wing.

There were celebrations in Dublin when Nelson's victory at Trafalgar was announced and a well attended ceremony to lay the first stone of the pillar.

Please get your facts right before you start to lecture me or anyone else about history.

P.S. your name doesn't suit, fountains are synonymous with knowledge.

It was also celebrated when it was blew up, so what's your point?

Nelson's Pillar

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