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Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

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Comments

  • #512
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I'm aware of that. The debate running is effectively about how abortion should be legal due to the horrendous ordeal all these women have to/may have to go through

    Well if you had actually read the posts they were not really about the possible death of the mother. They were in relation to somebody being flippant about adoption being nothing more than a 9 month sacrifice.


  • #513
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Sorry, but you're saying I'm mean spirited?

    Yes. That is what I wrote.
    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I'm not the one advocating ending the existence of the defenseless because it's an inconvenience to me.

    I know you're not. But nobody else is either, Strawman.
    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Maybe people should start calling abortion what it actual is instead of pussyfooting around the issue, it's murder plain and simple.

    Nothing is plain and simple. You want it to be, so badly. But nothing is. Sorry.
    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    And why do they cry? Because they done something which is morally wrong. It's call your conscience kicking in.

    That's just slave morality. Real morality is about making hard choices. You'll cry sometimes because the lesser of two pains is still painful.

    Let me try to put it in terms you might understand. In the days before anaesthetic, you'd scream your lungs out, cry and shake when the dentist pulled out your rotten molar. Was it the wrong choice because it hurt? Come on.


  • #514
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I'm aware of that. The debate running is effectively about how abortion should be legal due to the horrendous ordeal all these women have to/may have to go through

    Not even close.


  • #515
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
    Yes.

    I never said they couldn't.

    I just said in my opinion what I believe the best option is.

    Then we have no issue at all, except for your earlier assertion that the father should get to make the choice too.


  • #516
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Yes. That is what I wrote.



    I know you're not. But nobody else is either, Strawman.



    Nothing is plain and simple. You want it to be, so badly. But nothing is. Sorry.



    That's just slave morality. Real morality is about making hard choices. You'll cry sometimes because the lesser of two pains is still painful.

    Let me try to put it in terms you might understand. In the days before anaesthetic, you'd scream your lungs out, cry and shake when the dentist pulled out your rotten molar. Was it the wrong choice because it hurt? Come on.

    Well if you advocate abortion then you do advocate the ending of an unborn babies existence if the mother see's it fit. So you were talking about physical pain only? If not then it's a weak analogy


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  • #517
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Not even close.

    It's the basic gist of it. Maybe not word for word. Or do you want to enlighten me on what the basic point of the discussion was?


  • #518
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Well if you advocate abortion then you do advocate the ending of an unborn babies existence if the mother see's it fit.

    Yes. Which is not the same thing as "for convenience".
    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    So you were talking about physical pain only? If not then it's a weak analogy

    I'm saying that in the real world, the right choice often has negative consequences and that responding to those consequences with grief does not mean that your choice was wrong or immoral.

    People also cry after they switch off the respirator on a brain dead relative- have they done something morally wrong? Is that their conscience kicking in?


  • #519
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    It's the basic gist of it. Maybe not word for word. Or do you want to enlighten me on what the basic point of the discussion was?

    We have all written volumes on it. Why on Earth would any of us write it again because you either will not read it or cannot understand it? Waste of everyone's time.


  • #520
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Maybe people should start calling abortion what it actual is instead of pussyfooting around the issue, it's murder plain and simple.

    It's not murder, not in the eyes of even our archaic laws.


  • #521
    Cupcake_Crisis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭Cupcake_Crisis


    I think it'd be close because those it actually matters to would come out to vote when they wouldn't normally. But in the end... no I don't think it would because people would still think that they're voting for free abortions for everybody. Which breaks my heart.


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  • #522
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Penny Tration wrote: »
    It's not murder, not in the eyes of even our archaic laws.

    It's the killing of a living being, so it's for me and many others it's murder. I couldn't really care what wording others want to place on it to help reassure themselves of their actions


  • #523
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »
    I think it'd be close because those it actually matters to would come out to vote when they wouldn't normally. But in the end... no I don't think it would because people would still think that they're voting for free abortions for everybody. Which breaks my heart.

    If the eight amendment was repealed, what rules do you think would automatically come into force?


  • #524
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    It's the killing of a living being, so it's for me and many others it's murder.

    Murder is the malicious killing of a human without extenuating circumstances. Killing a man trying to kill you is not murder, for example. Nor is killing someone by accident.

    Your definition makes both of these scenarios murder.

    So it's a fairly useless definition.
    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    I couldn't really care what wording others want to place on it to help reassure themselves of their actions

    Then why should we care about yours? Is this a discussion or are you hear to preach?


  • #525
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    If the eight amendment was repealed, what rules do you think would automatically come into force?

    The current legislation would remain in place. And could be amended by future legislation.


  • #526
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Murder is the malicious killing of a human without extenuating circumstances. Killing a man trying to kill you is not murder, for example. Nor is killing someone by accident.

    Your definition makes both of these scenarios murder.

    So it's a fairly useless definition.



    Then why should we care about yours? Is this a discussion or are you hear to preach?

    Well it's not manslaughter as they aren't aborting by accident. Murder refers to the killing of someone without a valid excuse, especially with malice. If a man attempts to kill someone, the victim then has a valid excuse, so no, that ain't murder. So yes, it can refer to someone aborting their baby if there is no malice intended, as there is no valid excuse if everything is healthy. Well I came on originally to debate, buy since it's a pointless exercise debating with some I may aswell just preach at this point.


  • #527
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Well it's not manslaughter as they aren't aborting by accident. Murder refers to the killing of someone without a valid excuse, especially with malice.

    Yes, you probably should have looked up that Wikipedia entry before you mutilated the meaning of the word, but I guess this is progress.
    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    If a man attempts to kill someone, the victim then has a valid excuse, so no, that ain't murder. So yes, it can refer to someone aborting their baby if there is no malice intended, as there is no valid excuse if everything is healthy.

    And if everything is not healthy?
    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Well I came on originally to debate, buy since it's a pointless exercise debating with some I may aswell just preach at this point.

    You opened with the position that there were no excuses and that the motive for abortion was selfishness, and rounded it out by straw manning the pro-choice position. Then moved on to redefine murder and announce you didn't care about anyone else's opinion, but NOW you're no longer interested in debate? You came here to preach and vent and judge, from the start.


  • #528
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Then we have no issue at all, except for your earlier assertion that the father should get to make the choice too.

    The father should be allowed to choose not to pay maintenance for the child once he expresses that he doesn't want anything to do with it and wants a termination to occur.

    It's hypocritical and unfair to have a situation where the woman can absolve herself of responsibility but the man can't.


  • #529
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Yes, you probably should have looked up that Wikipedia entry before you mutilated the meaning of the word, but I guess this is progress.



    And if everything is not healthy?



    You opened with the position that there were no excuses and that the motive for abortion was selfishness, and rounded it out by straw manning the pro-choice position. Then moved on to redefine murder and announce you didn't care about anyone else's opinion, but NOW you're no longer interested in debate? You came here to preach and vent and judge, from the start.

    At least it's not another mutilated unborn baby, eh. I don't see how you can pull any definition of murder up where it's not applicable to the killing of an unborn baby. But I'm all ears if you can. If the situation is not healthy then it would depend on the circumstance imo. Let's not let the exceptions distract from the real point here though, which is usually what the "pro-choice" crowd spend all their time doing. I was on the thread earlier


  • #530
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    At least it's not another mutilated unborn baby, eh. I don't see how you can pull any definition of murder up where it's not applicable to the killing of an unborn baby. But I'm all ears if you can. If the situation is not healthy then it would depend on the circumstance imo. Let's not let the exceptions distract from the real point here though, which is usually what the "pro-choice" crowd spend all their time doing. I was on the thread earlier

    "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

    If it is legal it cannot be unlawful. Hence legal abortion can't be murder. There we go, I googled murder and used the definition to show it isn't applicable if it is legal.


  • #531
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,242 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    This has become quite an emotive thread. I'm still of the opinion, Abortions when needed in Ireland so women do not need to travel and receive adequate care here instead of elsewhere. Some may say, you're killing an unborn, but what about the mother who may die. She can continue procreating should she make a full recovery.

    It boggles the mind, that People give out about abortion when this is going on http://www.sos-usa.org/our-impact/childrens-statistics and yes, I brought it up again.


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  • #532
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

    If it is legal it cannot be unlawful. Hence legal abortion can't be murder. There we go, I googled murder and used the definition to show it isn't applicable if it is legal.

    It's not legal in Ireland, so by our standards it can be considered murder if one chooses to view it as such


  • #533
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    This is ridiculous. Abortion is not murder. Even in little old Ireland where abortion is illegal its not considered murder. There may be the issue of 14 years in prison for destroying the unborn or however it's phrased but it's well known that is aimed at those would be abortionists rather than women themselves. No Irish woman will be jailed for having an abortion, the public wouldn't stand for it. To compare it to killing a member of the public is nothing more than trying to reinforce a stigma that is thankfully on the decline.


  • #534
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,242 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    It's not legal in Ireland, so by our standards it can be considered murder if one chooses to view it as such

    Are we still discussing Abortion or Murder? State sanctioned murder (Execution) was legal in Ireland until 2000 - 2001. "Murder of an unborn Child" (Abortion) up until 24 weeks is legal in the UK. By definition, in either Ireland or the UK, neither fit the legal definition of an unlawful killing of one person by another, but we're not discussing anything other than Abortion.


  • #535
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Itzy wrote: »
    Are we still discussing Abortion or Murder? State sanctioned murder (Execution) was legal in Ireland until 2000 - 2001. "Murder of an unborn Child" (Abortion) up until 24 weeks is legal in the UK. By definition, in either Ireland or the UK, neither fit the legal definition of an unlawful killing of one person by another, but we're not discussing anything other than Abortion.

    We weren't talking about the legal definition, but the definition of murder in general. I never said it fit within the framework of the current legal definition, but by the standards of dictionary/original definitions


  • #536
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    eviltwin wrote: »
    This is ridiculous. Abortion is not murder. Even in little old Ireland where abortion is illegal its not considered murder. There may be the issue of 14 years in prison for destroying the unborn or however it's phrased but it's well known that is aimed at those would be abortionists rather than women themselves. No Irish woman will be jailed for having an abortion, the public wouldn't stand for it. To compare it to killing a member of the public is nothing more than trying to reinforce a stigma that is thankfully on the decline.

    Ah so social standards are the be all and end all. Glad we cleared that up. Why do you try and reinforce a stigma of worthlessness against an unborn baby?


  • #537
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,242 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    We weren't talking about the legal definition, but the definition of murder in general. I never said it fit within the framework of the current legal definition, but by the standards of the original meaning.

    How does that fit within this thread and the discussion on Abortion?


  • #538
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Itzy wrote: »
    How does that fit within this thread and the discussion on Abortion?

    Because I used the word murder in relation to abortion, which isn't wrong by it's definition, and got pulled up on it


  • #539
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Ah so social standards are the be all and end all. Glad we cleared that up

    Society changes all the time. It wasn't too long ago gay people were put in mental homes and husbands could rape their wives. You are free to see it as murder if you want but the world has moved on.


  • #540
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,242 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Because I used the word murder in relation to abortion, which isn't wrong by it's definition, and got pulled up on it

    At what stage in a pregnancy is Abortion considered Murder? When the Child is still forming or a functioning member of society?


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  • #541
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Society changes all the time. It wasn't too long ago gay people were put in mental homes and husbands could rape their wives. You are free to see it as murder if you want but the world has moved on.

    Societal perceptions changing doesn't make something more or less morally just. Just as it will never be morally right to stab someone in the head if society deems it acceptable to do so


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