Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Warning link in OP 20/3

1…3031333536…333

Comments

  • #962
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,126 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    As I said, I'm not arguing that he hasn't handled it badly. I said only a few days ago that Martial needed a rest. The fallacy that he didn't intend to have to rely on youths this season is what I have a problem with.
    Having to rely on them and only using them when absolutely required by circumstance is not showing faith or displaying good development though - which is the arguement (whether he should be getting praised for it). His stubborn use of the same core of first team players in 99% of games, when the squad was small, has been stupid - and shown poor regard for both the senior players and the youth players he should apparently be praised for showing faith in.

    Had he created a small squad and used the young players to help keep the senior players fresh and fit, then yes - brilliant. But having created a small squad (to give youth a chance) and not actually use them until he has no choice shows a complete lack of faith in those young players - because he clearly doesn't want to use them unless he has no alternative choice


  • #963
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Then don't look at Beckham, look at one of his teammates, Nicky Butt.

    Butt was brought into the squad around the same time as Beckham, a great player but not exceptional and he was often rotated into the team in league and cup games as a squad option, and not necessarily because of any injuries.

    What about Fletcher, did he only play when everybody else was injured? Did Wes Brown only get on the field when everybody else was injured?

    To be honest, I don't recall the exact circumstances that led to players getting their chances from 12 to 25 years ago. Were better players who were fit and didn't need resting dropped for them in important matches? It's beside the point anyway, because again, I'm not arguing that LVG has handled the youth players well.


  • #964
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,126 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    To be honest, I don't recall the exact circumstances that led to players getting their chances from 12 to 25 years ago. Were better players who were fit and didn't need resting dropped for them in important matches? It's beside the point anyway, because again, I'm not arguing that LVG has handled the youth players well.

    But surely the argument has to be he has handled them well if people are saying he should be praised for showing faith in them and developing them. If he has handled it badly how can you praise him over it?


  • #965
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    But surely the argument has to be he has handled them well if people are saying he should be praised for showing faith in them and developing them. If he has handled it badly how can you praise him over it?

    I'm really not looking for anyone to praise him Mitch, I just get a bit tired of people losing the run of themselves looking for things to criticize by saying things like, for example, he isn't giving young players a chance except by accident. It's not true. He intended to use them, even if he's made a balls of it.


  • #966
    rob316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,349 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    LVG has always been a very good manager to bring through youth players. Did it at Barca and Bayern its his handling of established players has always been his problem.

    I gotta wonder if ye are interested in bringing through youth, why appoint Mourinho who has zero track record in it?


  • Advertisement
  • #967
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,277 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    Were better players who were fit and didn't need resting dropped for them in important matches?

    Its not about the important matches, of course the best team gets selected for those, its about the marginal matches, the places where you do have a little leeway to make changes.

    The example I keep coming back to is Varela. Thrown in at the deep end against Wolfsburg he did an acceptable job, he got another game at Bournemouth and did well again. Our next game was against a crap Norwich side, I would fully have expected Varela to be given further gametime there to settle into his role and gain confidence. Nope, dropped for a winger to play at full back.

    The Newcastle game came shortly after that. Newcastle, a crap team in horrendous form, surely the perfect time to give Varela another game? Nope, Ashley Young at full back again.

    I don't want the kids playing in the crunch matches, but if we are going to use them then do it right and play them at the appropriate times, play them against the Newcastles and Norwich's of this world. If we did that maybe they would be ready for the days when we have 13 players injured and Arsenal up next.


  • #968
    Liv Mango Shoplifter
    Posts: 27,583 ✭✭✭✭ Liv Mango Shoplifter


    rob316 wrote: »
    LVG has always been a very good manager to bring through youth players. Did it at Barca and Bayern its his handling of established players has always been his problem.

    I gotta wonder if ye are interested in bringing through youth, why appoint Mourinho who has zero track record in it?

    Yep, looking to eat both pieces of the pie


  • #969
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,277 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    I'm really not looking for anyone to praise him Mitch, I just get a bit tired of people losing the run of themselves looking for things to criticize by saying things like, for example, he isn't giving young players a chance except by accident. It's not true. He intended to use them, even if he's made a balls of it.

    It is true.

    He intended to use them? If we didn't have 13 players missing these lads would not be near the team, its a butchering of the word "intended" to use it here.

    I am pretty damn confident that Van Gaal did not intend to use Rashford this season. He did not sit there at the start of the season and consider him in his first team plans. If he did, then why was the only recently recalled Will Keane in the Shrewsbury squad ahead of him?


  • #970
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,277 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    rob316 wrote: »
    I gotta wonder if ye are interested in bringing through youth, why appoint Mourinho who has zero track record in it?

    We are interested in bringing through youth.

    But our goal is to win titles.


  • #971
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    It is true.

    He intended to use them? If we didn't have 13 players missing these lads would not be near the team, its a butchering of the word "intended" to use it here.

    I am pretty damn confident that Van Gaal did not intend to use Rashford this season. He did not sit there at the start of the season and consider him in his first team plans. If he did, then why was the only recently recalled Will Keane in the Shrewsbury squad ahead of him?

    If any manager had 13 players missing they'd be using players that weren't in their first team plans. What kind of argument is that?

    By keeping the squad small, he needed to lose a lot less than 13 players before having to draw from the youth setup - and he clearly knew this!


  • Advertisement
  • #972
    Liv Mango Shoplifter
    Posts: 27,583 ✭✭✭✭ Liv Mango Shoplifter


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    We are interested in bringing through youth.

    But our goal is to win titles.

    So on that note who do you want as manager so?


  • #973
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,126 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    Yep, looking to eat both pieces of the pie

    Well we have already missed out on two other two level managers who do have a record of bringing through youth and at this stage (for me) it looks like Mourinho and Pochetino are the only viable candidates. Pochetino would be more suited, but has less of a track record in winning trophies.

    Mourinho is a successful manager and suited to the pressures at United, imo, and I also think if there are youth players that are sufficiently talented, he will play them (personal opinion). I would not, however, want him overseeing the youth football in any way - that should be for Butt (and others).

    With the state United are in, they need someone who they can be confident in to bring success back to United - and I would say Mourinho is the standout in that regard.

    If in turn he ignores youth completely, I will criticise him for it - and not praise him for playing the 6th choice left back when the other 5 are unavailable to play there.


  • #974
    Liv Mango Shoplifter
    Posts: 27,583 ✭✭✭✭ Liv Mango Shoplifter


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    Well we have already missed out on two other two level managers who do have a record of bringing through youth and at this stage (for me) it looks like Mourinho and Pochetino are the only viable candidates. Pochetino would be more suited, but has less of a track record in winning trophies.

    Mourinho is a successful manager and suited to the pressures at United, imo, and I also think if there are youth players that are sufficiently talented, he will play them (personal opinion). I would not, however, want him overseeing the youth football in any way - that should be for Butt (and others).

    With the state United are in, they need someone who they can be confident in to bring success back to United - and I would say Mourinho is the standout in that regard.

    If in turn he ignores youth completely, I will criticise him for it - and not praise him for playing the 6th choice left back when the other 5 are unavailable to play there.
    No he's not the best option if you want to blood youth and be succesfull

    Why do people continuously ignore the possibility of getting Simeone

    He's done wonders with the Athletico Madrid academy


  • #975
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,126 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    If any manager had 13 players missing they'd be using players that weren't in their first team plans. What kind of argument is that?

    By keeping the squad small, he needed to lose a lot less than 13 players before having to draw from the youth setup - and he clearly knew this!
    But only turning to them when the injuries rob him of any other option shows zero faith in the players in the first place. It is a very odd scenario LVG has created.

    Creating a small squad where youth will have to be used does indicate faith in youth.
    Not playing them until his hand is forced indicates no faith in them.

    Ie. He didn't feel he could rest Martial at any point and bring Keane, Wilson or Rashford in for him, regardless of the game.

    You can argue he has shown faith - as you have done - through how he has built the squad.

    You can argue he has shown no faith - as I and others have done - by the actual use of the squad.

    For me: actual use trumps possible intention.


  • #976
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,126 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    No he's not the best option if you want to blood youth and be succesfull
    Ok, but that isn't an argument I made.


  • #977
    Liv Mango Shoplifter
    Posts: 27,583 ✭✭✭✭ Liv Mango Shoplifter


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    Ok, but that isn't an argument I made.
    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    Well we have already missed out on two other two level managers who do have a record of bringing through youth and at this stage (for me) it looks like Mourinho and Pochetino are the only viable candidates. Pochetino would be more suited, but has less of a track record in winning trophies.
    Simeone


  • #978
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,277 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    So on that note who do you want as manager so?

    I stated my opinion on this many times. Even accepting his potential faults the only logical choice is Mourinho, and he should have been in months ago.


  • #979
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,126 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    Simeone

    Seperate arguments - having missed out on Pep and Klopp, Mourino is the last of the 'big three' available, and Pochetino is the only other manager I see as a viable candidate right now.

    My arguemtn for Mourinho is that he is the manager United could be most confident in to bring United success.

    It may come at a cost of youth players, but I am not entirely convinced of that. I don't think Madrid, Inter or Chelsea have a great record regarding youth regardless of Mourinho - so I don't know that failures to bring through young players can be blamed on him entirely, and not put at least somewhat on the culture of the clubs involved - have their been a rake of young prodigies that have burst on to the scenes at those clubs since he left them?

    Also, I do think United are moving away from determination to have a core of youth developed players (if that determination really existed) and more towards the instant success from money philosophy that prevails in football. Its not worked for us - obviously.


  • #980
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    Ie. He didn't feel he could rest Martial at any point and bring Keane, Wilson or Rashford in for him, regardless of the game.

    You can argue he has shown faith - as you have done - through how he has built the squad.

    You can argue he has shown no faith - as I and others have done - by the actual use of the squad.

    For me: actual use trumps possible intention.

    I agree with the bolded part, Martial should have been rested sooner and I said as much myself several days ago. This certainly goes to an argument about LVG being poor at squad management, which is a different thing.

    On the other hand, you yourself said earlier:
    So Rashford comes into the side - when the only options available to LVG at this point, due to injuries, are to play him or move Memphis up front and bring Pereira in.

    This would be a total Fergie move, Fergie who is hailed a promoter of young players. You only have to think back to Rafael in center midfield ahead of Pogba for an example of it. But LVG didn't do this, he put his trust in a young striker who, I think, had never even been in a first team squad before?

    He could have hung on to Van Persie, or convinced Hernandez to stay. He could have said in January "Sh*t, Martial has played so many games this season that I've basically no backup for Rooney, I better pick someone up." But he made the clear decision that he'd have to draw from his youth team instead. It's not like this hadn't occurred to him. Yeah, he probably had Keane in his mind, how could he predict that his groin was going to explode after two minutes on the field? But even at that, he would have known that Rashford was next in line, whereas if he had four senior strikers this wouldn't be the case.

    You can criticize his choices, I don't have a problem with that. But I don't agree that it was somehow unintended.


  • #981
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    No he's not the best option if you want to blood youth and be succesfull

    Why do people continuously ignore the possibility of getting Simeone

    He's done wonders with the Athletico Madrid academy

    because he has zero English. Would be a disaster


  • Advertisement
  • #982
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 49,126 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    Maximus Alexander wrote: »
    You can criticize his choices, I don't have a problem with that. But I don't agree that it was somehow unintended.

    I would agree there may have been an original intention - it is still only 'may', as it could also be that LVG thought players like Lingard, Memphis, Martial, Rooney and Fellaini would (a) remain mostly uninjured for the season and (b) be versatile enough in the positions they can play that if one or two are injured, he can rotate the positions of the players to compensate that - meaning he did not build his squad on the basis he was confident Rashford could perform and score in the first team if required (and even his youth level record wouldn't indicate that was likely).

    But my argument is more grounded in the fact that his lack of using the youth players at any point unless injuries force his hand show a lack of faith and a lack of intention to play them - otherwise they would have been integrated more so they wouldn't be an unknown factor when they were (basically) dumped into the first team in must win matches.


  • #983
    FutureGuy
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,262 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    Still horny today.

    Can't wait for Sunday.


  • #984
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,277 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    Still horny today.

    Can't wait for Sunday.

    I would be very nervous about Sunday. Enjoyable as an easy win is, Arsenal are a far different outfit and could easily make mincemeat out of the team that played last night.


  • #985
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,001 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    M!Ck^ wrote: »
    Why do people continuously ignore the possibility of getting Simeone

    For me, there's a few things. The main thing, though, is he'd be an utter unknown in the PL; he's done very well in Spain, but that doesn't always translate over. Jose, and to an extent with Poch, is someone we know can do extremely well in the league. Jose is as close to a "sure thing" you can get.

    As far as youth goes, I feel thats something you strive to achieve when you can't or already have built a stable foundation of success in some terms. Youth was a big part of United but came with a mix of players in their prime as well, and players with experience.

    I'd be looking to bring in a few top tier players and winning trophies, THEN worry about bringing in youth.


  • #986
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    But my argument is more grounded in the fact that his lack of using the youth players at any point unless injuries force his hand show a lack of faith and a lack of intention to play them - otherwise they would have been integrated more so they wouldn't be an unknown factor when they were (basically) dumped into the first team in must win matches.

    Fair enough, although with the way the season has gone you could also argue that pretty much every game has been a must win match. :pac: I don't think it's a stretch to say the match day squads might have looked different if United were flying high at the top of the table.


  • #987
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,001 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Link to the draw.

    http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2016/draws/round=2000660/drawcentre/index.html


  • #988
    bangkok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,638 ✭✭✭✭bangkok


    at least we not going to Ukraine!!!


  • #989
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Odds of United v Liverpool... improving...


  • #990
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Liverpool V Manchester United


  • Advertisement
  • #991
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,001 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Liverpool

    :(

    giphy.gif


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement
Advertisement