neutral refs in pro 12

leinster blue boys · 21-02-2016 7:59pm #1

Surely the pro 12 deserves credibility by havin neutral refs.to many games are being spoilt by a ref from one of the countres teams taking part

making a controversial match winning or losing decision.refs have it hard enough as it is.why not just have a ref from a country not involved

Podge_irl · 21-02-2016 8:12pm

leinster blue boys wrote: »

.to many games are being spoilt by a ref from one of the countres teams taking part

That's really not why they're being spoiled.

It's something they could look at for sure but not something that particularly bothers me. I'd far sooner have Owens ref a Leinster Ospreys game then many other refs in the pro12 for example. In fact I'd be very against it because off the top of my head Mitrea is the only ref of any use for the Irish welsh games.

Losty Dublin · 21-02-2016 10:47pm

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Surely the pro 12 deserves credibility by havin neutral refs.to many games are being spoilt by a ref from one of the countres teams taking part

making a controversial match winning or losing decision.refs have it hard enough as it is.why not just have a ref from a country not involved

Pro 12 referees are all neutral, being nominated by respective local referee societies from the participating teams and regions. Countries and home unions don't have anything to do with the competition.

calico77 · 21-02-2016 10:53pm

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Surely the pro 12 deserves credibility by havin neutral refs.to many games are being spoilt by a ref from one of the countres teams taking part

making a controversial match winning or losing decision.refs have it hard enough as it is.why not just have a ref from a country not involved

its not about neutrality, its about lack of competence.

errlloyd · 21-02-2016 11:23pm

Although there is a problem with the neutrality of all of the other officials.

There was one game recently I felt a bit awkward watching. It may have been a Connacht or Leinster match, but they weren't noticeably hammering the other team at scrum time, and yet getting a lot of penalties. The ref didn't call any of them, they were all being called by a touch judge, and I just felt any Welsh fan watching would assume a bias.

I know sweet FA about scrums, so maybe all the calls were correct, but I've never seen a TJ get so actively involved in scrum calls before.

Alan Solomons was furious at the ref in their away game v Dragons I think.

Zzippy · 21-02-2016 11:29pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Although there is a problem with the neutrality of all of the other officials.

There was one game recently I felt a bit awkward watching. It may have been a Connacht or Leinster match, but they weren't noticeably hammering the other team at scrum time, and yet getting a lot of penalties. The ref didn't call any of them, they were all being called by a touch judge, and I just felt any Welsh fan watching would assume a bias.

I know sweet FA about scrums, so maybe all the calls were correct, but I've never seen a TJ get so actively involved in scrum calls before.

Alan Solomons was furious at the ref in their away game v Dragons I think.

That was the Connacht Scarlets game, the TJ was calling scrum penalties alright ... "yellow, yellow, yellow". In fairness though, Connacht (mainly Denis Buckley) were destroying them in the scrum and the only way they could compete was to drop the bind or drive in. Their starting TH was subbed off before halftime and his replacement was sinbinned for persistent scrum infringements in the second half.

Robbo · 22-02-2016 12:16pm

There seems to be a serious lack of Scotch refs in the Pro12 at the moment. Almost makes you nostalgic for a Changleng.

22-02-2016 12:23pm

Robbo wrote: »

There seems to be a serious lack of Scotch refs in the Pro12 at the moment. Almost makes you nostalgic for a Changleng.

Ref's have to do an exam and all the Scottish ones fail right at the end.

Zzippy · 22-02-2016 12:26pm

Robbo wrote: »

There seems to be a serious lack of Scotch refs in the Pro12 at the moment. Almost makes you nostalgic for a Changleng.

Almost. Like almost wanting Donal Trump to win the election...

pickarooney · 22-02-2016 12:57pm

Is Donal running in West Cork?

Zzippy · 22-02-2016 1:10pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Is Donal running in West Cork?

So good I'm not going to edit my post... well played sir!

Yeah_Right · 22-02-2016 1:21pm

calico77 wrote: »

its not about neutrality, its about lack of competence.

I agree. I don't care where the ref is from, I just want them to be consistent, clear in their calls and instructions and have a good feel for the game. The whole neutral ref thing comes from the amateur days where the ref was originally some local lad who probably knew all the local players. As the game grew and communications and transport improved neutral refs became an option and actually desirable for the credibility of the game. In a professional sport where referreeing is a career, neutrality isn't an issue.

I'm an All Blacks fan and I'd rather have Owens ref them against the Welsh than any other ref because he is the best. I find it frustrating watching a match and seeing Owens as a TJ instead of with the whistle. I understand that the only way refs are going to improve is by being put in charge of big matches but make it big matches that my teams aren't involved in until they're as good as Owens.

NiallBoo · 22-02-2016 1:29pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I understand that the only way refs are going to improve is by being put in charge of big matches but make it big matches that my teams aren't involved in until they're as good as Owens.

But do the new refs coming in know the systems?

The Rape of Lucretia · 22-02-2016 1:45pm

calico77 wrote: »

its not about neutrality, its about lack of competence.

Its not about lack of competence, its about unreal expectations from spectators.

The standards expected by some are not humanly impossible. Of course, they only get upset about standards when they perceive a judgement against their own team. No jumping up and down about it when a mistake is in their favour.

former total · 22-02-2016 1:50pm

The problem here is the underlying assumption that the ref is biased and the fan at home is a dispassionate observer who can detect such bias. Obviously, the exact opposite is true.

You're watching the match, a big call goes against your team.

You don't coolly analyse it for correctness, you go through the five stages of grief;
1) Denial; "what the f**k, that was never a penalty"
2) Anger; "this ref is f**king useless, you'd know he was Welsh alright"
3) Bargaining; "could he not at least go to the TMO?"
4) Depression; "this is depressing"
5) Acceptance; "the better team won, but the ref didn't help"

The refs aren't biased, we are. They aren't incompetent either, they're just human.

awec · 22-02-2016 1:53pm

Neutrality doesn't really matter. None of the IRFU refs are any use and there's definitely no benefit to Ulster when we get landed with one of them.

The Rape of Lucretia · 22-02-2016 2:00pm

awec wrote: »

Neutrality doesn't really matter. None of the IRFU refs are any use and there's definitely no benefit to Ulster when we get landed with one of them.

Heh. Seems to be the case alright. But sure isnt your place in the rugby world to be breeding oodles of quality backs for the Ireland team ? What do ye want now, trophies as well ?

awec · 22-02-2016 2:01pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Heh. Seems to be the case alright. But sure isnt your place in the rugby world to be breeding oodles of quality backs for the Ireland team ? What do ye want now, trophies as well ?

We produce the best tackle bag holders in all of Ireland.

The Rape of Lucretia · 22-02-2016 2:06pm

awec wrote: »

We produce the best tackle bag holders in all of Ireland.

They mightnt be too long at that. 4 or 5 Ulster backs starting regularly in a year or two is quite possible.
Keeingp room for Ringrose though.

sydthebeat · 22-02-2016 2:51pm

former total wrote: »

The problem here is the underlying assumption that the ref is biased and the fan at home is a dispassionate observer who can detect such bias. Obviously, the exact opposite is true.

You're watching the match, a big call goes against your team.

You don't coolly analyse it for correctness, you go through the five stages of grief;
1) Denial; "what the f**k, that was never a penalty"
2) Anger; "this ref is f**king useless, you'd know he was Welsh alright"
3) Bargaining; "could he not at least go to the TMO?"
4) Depression; "this is depressing"
5) Acceptance; "the better team won, but the ref didn't help"

The refs aren't biased, we are. They aren't incompetent either, they're just human.

dont be robbing my posts !!!!

CatFromHue · 22-02-2016 3:26pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Although there is a problem with the neutrality of all of the other officials.

There was one game recently I felt a bit awkward watching. It may have been a Connacht or Leinster match, but they weren't noticeably hammering the other team at scrum time, and yet getting a lot of penalties. The ref didn't call any of them, they were all being called by a touch judge, and I just felt any Welsh fan watching would assume a bias.

I know sweet FA about scrums, so maybe all the calls were correct, but I've never seen a TJ get so actively involved in scrum calls before.

This should actually be encouraged as the ref can only see one side of a scrum.

I'd like touch judges to get more roles in the reffing of the game, like the offside line for example.

Yeah_Right · 22-02-2016 3:30pm

awec wrote: »

Neutrality doesn't really matter. None of the IRFU refs are any use and there's definitely no benefit to Ulster when we get landed with one of them.

Is it safe for you to be involved in a discussion about refs? You're not worried about your blood pressure or an aneurism if someone brings up Lacey or Clancy?

awec · 22-02-2016 3:37pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Is it safe for you to be involved in a discussion about refs? You're not worried about your blood pressure or an aneurism if someone brings up Lacey or Clancy?

That pair are Exhibit A and Exhibit B in the case of referee neutrality being a non issue.

The Lost Sheep · 22-02-2016 4:01pm

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Surely the pro 12 deserves credibility by havin neutral refs.to many games are being spoilt by a ref from one of the countres teams taking part

making a controversial match winning or losing decision. refs have it hard enough as it is.why not just have a ref from a country not involved

They have looked at it but theres costs issues etc. Games are not being spoilt by having a referee from country involved. The refs are nominated by their association/society and the country theyre from doesn't have a role in it

errlloyd wrote: »

Although there is a problem with the neutrality of all of the other officials.

There was one game recently I felt a bit awkward watching. It may have been a Connacht or Leinster match, but they weren't noticeably hammering the other team at scrum time, and yet getting a lot of penalties. The ref didn't call any of them, they were all being called by a touch judge, and I just felt any Welsh fan watching would assume a bias.

I know sweet FA about scrums, so maybe all the calls were correct, but I've never seen a TJ get so actively involved in scrum calls before.

Alan Solomons was furious at the ref in their away game v Dragons I think.

Any referee who has gone through the ranks to AIL level and go up to the rank of being able to referee AIL division 1 can run the line in the pro12. There is considerable expense to be added.
The ARs at this level will constantly be chatting to the referee making lots of calls. Theyre assistant referees and not touch judges at this level for good reason

Deleted User wrote: »

Ref's have to do an exam and all the Scottish ones fail right at the end.

???

CatFromHue wrote: »

This should actually be encouraged as the ref can only see one side of a scrum.

I'd like touch judges to get more roles in the reffing of the game, like the offside line for example.

The touch judges/assistant referees can always mention trends to referee like a side constantly being offside and referee can then take this into account and then see if its necessary to sanction a team for it. Referee will use 'downtime' like at lineouts etc and will talk to their assistant for anything like that...

CatFromHue · 22-02-2016 4:37pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Is it safe for you to be involved in a discussion about refs? You're not worried about your blood pressure or an aneurism if someone brings up Lacey or Clancy?

Awec is going to be the first Mod to have to ban himself :pac:

22-02-2016 4:41pm

I recall there was one narrative where as a result Allan Rolland (ex-Leinster scrumhalf) reffing a match between Leinster and Munster, and thus losing Munster the game in the most bias referring display ever seen, it cost Munster rugby millions of euro. Munster missed out on the play-offs thus missing out on a money generating fixture, also costing Munster silverware, resulting in less season tickets and attendance. It was hilarious. Allan Roland you snake.

Losty Dublin · 22-02-2016 7:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I recall there was one narrative where as a result Allan Rolland (ex-Leinster scrumhalf) reffing a match between Leinster and Munster

Don't you mean the same lad who was considered the best referee in the world at one point?

neutral refs in pro 12

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