Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

Zzippy · 17-02-2016 04:57PM

former total wrote: »

I'd be reluctant to assume that Henshaw is moving for sponsorship reasons. He already features heavily in any number of marketing materials. He's a big fish in a small pond at Connacht (marketing wise), that won't be the case at Leinster so unless he moves on to Sexton/BOD/POC superstar status, it won't make too much difference.

Chances are he wants to play for a better team and have a better chance of winning medals.

As for offering a better deal to stay at Connacht, well, then you're looking at p*ssing off a key player. Henshaw says "I want to move to Leinster", IRFU say, "well OK, but you have to take a reduced payday to make that happen" - that doesn't sound likely in an environment where IRFU are fighting to keep their players in the country.

On your first two points, fair enough, I'm sure sponsorship played some part in his decision, as did success and his personal life. On the last part, he would have been getting a large increase anyway. What's to stop IRFU saying "well you're on 100k, we'll offer you 250k at Leinster but we really want you to play at Connacht so we'll pay you 300k if you stay"?

It's not a reduced payday as you represent it, it would be a large increase wherever he goes, just larger at one team than another. Call it a loyalty bonus, call it negotiation tactics - if you know Leinster is what he wants you have a bargaining tool where you don't have to offer as much. It's how many Irish players have taken lower salary to stay in Ireland over the years than they would have got abroad - IRFU has used their desire to stay in order to negotiate a lower salary than the international market rate.

rsh118 · 17-02-2016 04:59PM

Good sense on Healy. Shows good intent on the part of the IRFU to hold onto a 28 year old prop who on form is a lion.

Clegg · 17-02-2016 04:59PM

Three years for an injury prone player in his late 20's who has a very attritional style of play. Hope this one doesn't come to bite them in the arse.

Neil3030 · 17-02-2016 04:59PM

awec wrote: »

Healy has signed on for three years.

Yikes, I know his form hasn't been great but does it really warrant retiring and going on the dole??

17-02-2016 05:00PM

Good stuff. Hopefully at an appropriate price.

Time for him to repay the faith now!

CMOTDibbler · 17-02-2016 05:01PM

Zzippy wrote: »

On your first two points, fair enough, I'm sure sponsorship played some part in his decision, as did success and his personal life. On the last part, he would have been getting a large increase anyway. What's to stop IRFU saying "well you're on 100k, we'll offer you 250k at Leinster but we really want you to play at Connacht so we'll pay you 300k if you stay"?

And his agent says "Thank you, we'll take the 300k and Leinster please". Very difficult to row back on a value you've already set.

CatFromHue · 17-02-2016 05:09PM

errlloyd wrote: »

On the one hand we might be paying stupid money for him. On the other hand, a model where private individuals continue to invest in Irish talent, without taking too much control from the IRFU might be a way forward in this intensely competitive enviornment.

I don't know if that's such a good idea.

Take Healy and McGrath for example. Healy is a better ball carrier but I think McGrath is at least his equal if not better everywhere else but Healy, if the reports are true, looks to be on a much better deal than McGrath.

McGrath is going to want the same next time his contract is up but will an outside investor be around to pay his wages?

Neil3030 · 17-02-2016 05:10PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't know if that's such a good idea.

Take Healy and McGrath for example. Healy is a better ball carrier but I think McGrath is at least his equal if not better everywhere else but Healy, if the reports are true, looks to be on a much better deal than McGrath.

McGrath is going to want the same next time his contract is up but will an outside investor be around to pay his wages?

I love McGrath, but when on form Healy's ball carrying and scrummaging are vastly superior.

CatFromHue · 17-02-2016 05:12PM

ball carrying maybe but no so sure on the scrummagaing.

errlloyd · 17-02-2016 05:18PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't know if that's such a good idea.

Take Healy and McGrath for example. Healy is a better ball carrier but I think McGrath is at least his equal if not better everywhere else but Healy, if the reports are true, looks to be on a much better deal than McGrath.

McGrath is going to want the same next time his contract is up but will an outside investor be around to pay his wages?

One of the realities of business that these guys are going to have to begin to accept is their salary is no longer directly correlated to their on field performance - particularly to these private top ups. McGrath seeing Healy getting paid more than him will bug him, but he gets paid a pittance compared to Gareth Bale - the business logic is the same.

The IRFU will need to properly leverage the marketability of players (the nauseating trend of putting names on Jerseys in football makes them an assload of cash, when a player signs Jersey sales spike).

Healy is a revenue driver for the club, hardcore fans know McGrath is better, the paying public assume it is still Cian Healy.

Neil3030 · 17-02-2016 05:18PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

ball carrying maybe but no so sure on the scrummagaing.

Healy is (was) the more destructive scrummager, imo. We haven't seen it in a while, we may not see it again, but he has minced scrums in ways I'm yet to see from McGrath.

17-02-2016 05:20PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't know if that's such a good idea.

Take Healy and McGrath for example. Healy is a better ball carrier but I think McGrath is at least his equal if not better everywhere else but Healy, if the reports are true, looks to be on a much better deal than McGrath.

McGrath is going to want the same next time his contract is up but will an outside investor be around to pay his wages?

Wage Inflation is happening everywhere unfortunately. Going to make the game very expensive for some people.

NAME CLUB SALARY
1. David Pocock Wasps (If it happens) £1.4 Million
2. Ayumu Goromaru Queensland Reds £1.4 Million
3. Dan Carter Racing 92 £1.4 Million
4. Matt Giteau Toulon £900,000
5. Leigh Halfpenny Toulon £600,000
6. Ma'a Nonu Toulon £600,000
7. Jonathan Sexton Leinster £500,000
8. Charles Piutau Ulster £500,000
9. Bryan Habana Toulon £474,600
10. Manu Tuilagi Leicester Tigers £450,000

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/rugbys-ten-highest-earning-players/

17-02-2016 05:20PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

ball carrying maybe but no so sure on the scrummagaing.

Healy is a monster in the scrum. It's this aspect of his play more than anything that other teams are offering top dollar for.

Neil3030 · 17-02-2016 05:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wage Inflation is happening everywhere unfortunately. Going to make the game very expensive for some people.

NAME CLUB SALARY
1. David Pocock Wasps (If it happens) £1.4 Million
2. Ayumu Goromaru Queensland Reds £1.4 Million
3. Dan Carter Racing 92 £1.4 Million
4. Matt Giteau Toulon £900,000
5. Leigh Halfpenny Toulon £600,000
6. Ma'a Nonu Toulon £600,000
7. Jonathan Sexton Leinster £500,000
8. Charles Piutau Ulster £500,000
9. Bryan Habana Toulon £474,600
10. Manu Tuilagi Leicester Tigers £450,000

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/rugbys-ten-highest-earning-players/

An interesting list. But 2 of the top 3, you could argue, are the best to ever play their position and massively marketable, and the third is there because of the marketing revenue he generates in Japan.

Don't get me wrong, inflation is a very real thing, but I think 7 figure contracts will remain the exception, and top pros will continue to earn the 400-600k mark.

sheep? · 17-02-2016 05:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wage Inflation is happening everywhere unfortunately. Going to make the game very expensive for some people.

NAME CLUB SALARY
1. David Pocock Wasps (If it happens) £1.4 Million
2. Ayumu Goromaru Queensland Reds £1.4 Million
3. Dan Carter Racing 92 £1.4 Million
4. Matt Giteau Toulon £900,000
5. Leigh Halfpenny Toulon £600,000
6. Ma'a Nonu Toulon £600,000
7. Jonathan Sexton Leinster £500,000
8. Charles Piutau Ulster £500,000
9. Bryan Habana Toulon £474,600
10. Manu Tuilagi Leicester Tigers £450,000

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/rugbys-ten-highest-earning-players/

While the inflation rates and numerous mentions of Toulon irk me, my anger is subsided by the lovely and unexpected use of a table.

Zzippy · 17-02-2016 05:35PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

And his agent says "Thank you, we'll take the 300k and Leinster please". Very difficult to row back on a value you've already set.

That's not on offer though. He gets 250k and gets to live where he wants, or he gets 300k and has to live somewhere he doesn't want to. Or he gets 300k at either, but Leinster are told they have to find the money themselves, and if they are still interested they offer him a provincial contract for that amount.What's the point of Nucifora if he can't use bargaining tools to influence players to go/stay where they deem best for the national team?

former total · 17-02-2016 05:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wage Inflation is happening everywhere unfortunately. Going to make the game very expensive for some people.

NAME CLUB SALARY
1. David Pocock Wasps (If it happens) £1.4 Million
2. Ayumu Goromaru Queensland Reds £1.4 Million
3. Dan Carter Racing 92 £1.4 Million
4. Matt Giteau Toulon £900,000
5. Leigh Halfpenny Toulon £600,000
6. Ma'a Nonu Toulon £600,000
7. Jonathan Sexton Leinster £500,000
8. Charles Piutau Ulster £500,000
9. Bryan Habana Toulon £474,600
10. Manu Tuilagi Leicester Tigers £450,000

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/rugbys-ten-highest-earning-players/

Can people please stop quoting Pundit Arena? It is not a content-generating site. That list is from an article in the Daily Telegraph. Pundit Arena is basically boards.ie, it's a blog site, Punter Arena would be a better name.

Secondly, Goromaru is not earning that money from the Reds at all. His wages are not €1.4 million, not even close.

CatFromHue · 17-02-2016 05:36PM

errlloyd wrote: »

One of the realities of business that these guys are going to have to begin to accept is their salary is no longer directly correlated to their on field performance - particularly to these private top ups. McGrath seeing Healy getting paid more than him will bug him, but he gets paid a pittance compared to Gareth Bale - the business logic is the same.

The IRFU will need to properly leverage the marketability of players (the nauseating trend of putting names on Jerseys in football makes them an assload of cash, when a player signs Jersey sales spike).

Healy is a revenue driver for the club, hardcore fans know McGrath is better, the paying public assume it is still Cian Healy.

The salary in Ireland may not be directly correlated to their on field performance but if they move to France or England their basic pay will be better and it doesn't matter if they're a name or not, Moore being an example.

When you've such big differences in pay it's a disaster waiting to happen in the dressing room.

17-02-2016 05:39PM

former total wrote: »

Can people please stop quoting Pundit Arena? It is not a content-generating site. That list is from an article in the Daily Telegraph. Pundit Arena is basically boards.ie, it's a blog site, Punter Arena would be a better name.

Secondly, Goromaru is not earning that money from the Reds at all. His wages are not €1.4 million, not even close.

I've managed 3 today so far

Here's the Telegraph Link though - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11300999/Rugbys-rich-list-the-highest-paid-players-in-the-world.html

awec · 17-02-2016 05:39PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

The salary in Ireland may not be directly correlated to their on field performance but if they move to France or England their basic pay will be better and it doesn't matter if they're a name or not, Moore being an example.

When you've such big differences in pay it's a disaster waiting to happen in the dressing room.

Especially if the lads on lower salaries are actually togging out just as often, or more often for Ireland than the lads on the bumper deals.

Zzippy · 17-02-2016 05:45PM

Tox56 wrote: »

Yeah, and Henshaw is perfectly entitled to say fcuk that then Im off to France which would be an absolute disaster for the IRFU. Im sure Henshaw got offered some very lucrative numbers from abroad, as if this situation wasnt hard enough you basically want the IRFU to put a gun to his head to get him to stay at Connacht, purely in the name of "four strong provinces". I mean, would you really even want Henshaw to stay in Galway when its clearly not where it wants to be? Its an extremely difficult situation I know, but you are asking for some very unreasonable things from the IRFU imo

Getting away from Robbie to make it a more general point. I've accepted that Robbie wanted to move, so good luck to him. As I've said from the start, the frustration is over losing a potential central contract which would be a big boost to finances at Connacht, far more of a boost proportionally than gaining it is to Leinster, and making a mockery of the four strong provinces idea. But in the market we're in now, if a player like Henshaw has offers from France, IRFU can either match it, offer a lower amount but the benefits of staying in Ireland (which has worked for most of our players), or tell him to take a hike. Offering slightly less to go to Leinster, which they know he wants, or slightly more to stay at Connacht, is not putting a gun to his head. Putting a gun to his head would be saying "to France or to Connacht" to coin a phrase, and not allowing Leinster to offer him a contract at all.

It's simple bargaining tactics - you estimate staying in Ireland is worth a monetary discount of x on the market rate to a player so that's what you can get him for. Same principle applies if he wants to move province - how much is it worth to him to get the move he wants? It's certainly not good bargaining to offer him the same - you're never going to get what's best in IRFU eyes if that's the way you negotiate.

CMOTDibbler · 17-02-2016 05:52PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Offering slightly less to go to Leinster, which they know he wants, or slightly more to stay at Connacht, is not putting a gun to his head. Putting a gun to his head would be saying "to France or to Connacht" to coin a phrase, and not allowing Leinster to offer him a contract at all.

It's simple bargaining tactics - you estimate staying in Ireland is worth a monetary discount of x on the market rate to a player so that's what you can get him for. Same principle applies if he wants to move province - how much is it worth to him to get the move he wants? It's certainly not good bargaining to offer him the same - you're never going to get what's best in IRFU eyes if that's the way you negotiate.

It's not the same thing though. The IRFU don't have any control over what an external competitor can offer, so all they can do is hope the picture postcard and home comforts work better then the money abroad. If they play silly buggers and pretend to be two competitors when they're not and offer more money with one hat on than another, all they're doing is admitting that there is more money available.

The answer would invariably be "The bigger paycheck and Leinster please" :P

Tarf1234 · 17-02-2016 05:54PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

I love McGrath, but when on form Healy's ball carrying and scrummaging are vastly superior.

Scrummaging significantly better. Can't see why people are saying otherwise.

Tarf1234 · 17-02-2016 05:56PM

errlloyd wrote: »

Healy is a revenue driver for the club, hardcore fans know McGrath is better, the paying public assume it is still Cian Healy.

Ridiculous sweeping comment.

S12b · 17-02-2016 06:54PM

Whilst we're on the topic of salaries and salary discrepancies.....what is Jack McGrath's situation? I see his contract was renewed yesterday. If Healy is on a central contract, surely McGrath must be as well? I say that but I have a feeling he's not, can anyone confirm this?

If both players are on form, Healy is better simply because of his physical ability but from a business/finance point of view....McGrath is surely deserving of parity at this stage? Ultimately a rugby player sitting in the stands isn't worth much to anyone. It may seem harsh but that's the reality.

I'd say if you compared their respective minutes for Leinster for the last 2 seasons and pro-rata'd them to their salary it would make for some interesting reading!!

Academy part 2 featuring Adam Byrne....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h4LE_FjelU

thomond2006 · 17-02-2016 07:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wage Inflation is happening everywhere unfortunately. Going to make the game very expensive for some people.

NAME CLUB SALARY
1. David Pocock Wasps (If it happens) £1.4 Million
2. Ayumu Goromaru Queensland Reds £1.4 Million
3. Dan Carter Racing 92 £1.4 Million
4. Matt Giteau Toulon £900,000
5. Leigh Halfpenny Toulon £600,000
6. Ma'a Nonu Toulon £600,000
7. Jonathan Sexton Leinster £500,000
8. Charles Piutau Ulster £500,000
9. Bryan Habana Toulon £474,600
10. Manu Tuilagi Leicester Tigers £450,000

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/rugbys-ten-highest-earning-players/

Off topic but how in bejaysus is Goromaru getting that kind of money in Australia?! I'm guessing it's down to his marketing pull?! He had a fantastic RWC but that seems like crazy money for a player who has never played outside of Japan.

vienne86 · 17-02-2016 07:43PM

Great news about Healy. Delighted he's staying.

eire4 · 17-02-2016 07:43PM

vienne86 wrote: »

Great news about Healy. Delighted he's staying.

Coming on the back of the Robbie Henshaw signing news a good week for sure for Leinster.

its_phil · 17-02-2016 07:47PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Getting away from Robbie to make it a more general point. I've accepted that Robbie wanted to move, so good luck to him. As I've said from the start, the frustration is over losing a potential central contract which would be a big boost to finances at Connacht, far more of a boost proportionally than gaining it is to Leinster, and making a mockery of the four strong provinces idea. But in the market we're in now, if a player like Henshaw has offers from France, IRFU can either match it, offer a lower amount but the benefits of staying in Ireland (which has worked for most of our players), or tell him to take a hike. Offering slightly less to go to Leinster, which they know he wants, or slightly more to stay at Connacht, is not putting a gun to his head. Putting a gun to his head would be saying "to France or to Connacht" to coin a phrase, and not allowing Leinster to offer him a contract at all.

It's simple bargaining tactics - you estimate staying in Ireland is worth a monetary discount of x on the market rate to a player so that's what you can get him for. Same principle applies if he wants to move province - how much is it worth to him to get the move he wants? It's certainly not good bargaining to offer him the same - you're never going to get what's best in IRFU eyes if that's the way you negotiate.

Can't agree Zzippy that kind of negotiating with a 28 year old might be fine, but a 22 year old who you have two more contract negotiations with at 25 and 28 is not smart long term for the IRFU.

former total · 17-02-2016 08:07PM

S12b wrote: »

Whilst we're on the topic of salaries and salary discrepancies.....what is Jack McGrath's situation? I see his contract was renewed yesterday. If Healy is on a central contract, surely McGrath must be as well? I say that but I have a feeling he's not, can anyone confirm this?
!

McGrath was in the list of renewals announced by Leinster yesterday so he would appear to be on a provincial deal.

But he and Healy are so far ahead of the rest of the LHs that I'd say he's on a substantial wedge anyway.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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