Blocking driveway

Rubber_Soul · 08-02-2016 03:19AM #1

Hi all,

I have a query in relation to parking on the street directly in front of a driveway. I see that the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations Act (1997) states that a vehicle

shall not be parked in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises.

I’m wondering if having an unusable driveway as a result of a wheelchair ramp changes the situation here at all as technically no vehicles (including wheelchairs as the person for whom the ramp was built no longer resides at the address) would be coming in or out of the drive?

Atlantic Dawn · 08-02-2016 03:33AM

Vehicle doesn't have to be a mechanically propelled one, another wheelchair, buggy, etc would count as a vehicle.

BornToKill · 08-02-2016 10:20AM

Regulation 4(5): 'A reference to a vehicle in these Regulations shall, unless otherwise specified, mean a mechanically propelled vehicle (other than a mechanically propelled wheelchair) and a pedal cycle'.

Victor · 09-02-2016 08:15PM

If they are blocking a usable entrance, then you can ask the Garda / council for enforcement.

If you (including your guests) don't access the driveway, I'm not seeing a reason to make an issue of it.

Rubber_Soul · 09-02-2016 10:17PM

Victor wrote: »

If they are blocking a usable entrance, then you can ask the Garda / council for enforcement.

If you (including your guests) don't access the driveway, I'm not seeing a reason to make an issue of it.

We're making an issue of it because we're sick of accomodating people who we feel are simply taking the piss at this stage.

My neighbour doesn't like to park her car in her driveway so parks outside on the street. As a result her daughter's boyfriend parks outside my house as their driveway is too small to accomodate his car. I didn't care about it as up until a few months ago there was no one living in our house that owned a car.

However in recent months my girlfriend has moved in and as we have no driveway she has to park her car outside. The neighbour knows she's moved in and still won't park her car in her own driveway. This has meant we have on 3 or 4 occasions arrived home to find nowhere to park outside our home and been forced to park down the street. That was grating but we never made an issue of it. We also regularly park our car further down past our drive beside a grass verge so that he can fit his car in. This wasn't too much of a problem when the weather was alright but in the middle of winter its meant we're getting out and stepping in mud and dog****e etc. I realise that sounds like whinging but I'm just trying to show that we've tried to be accomodating.

Recently though the daughter's boyfriend was parked up outside ours in such a way that he had left a good 4 or 5 feet of space in front and behind of the car. My girlfriend asked him would he mind moving up a bit so she could park in the available space. Next thing we know we have the neighbour out screaming in her face about how we have no right to tell her guests where to park as it's a public street. After that we're not prepared to let them get away with it any more and want to reclaim our driveway.

gizmo555 · 09-02-2016 10:27PM

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

Recently though the daughter's boyfriend was parked up outside ours in such a way that he had left a good 4 or 5 feet of space in front and behind of the car. My girlfriend asked him would he mind moving up a bit so she could park in the available space. Next thing we know we have the neighbour out screaming in her face about how we have no right to tell her guests where to park as it's a public street. After that we're not prepared to let them get away with it any more and want to reclaim our driveway.

Your neighbour's right. Not about the screaming, but it is a public street. And from your description, your "driveway" is no longer really a driveway. What you really want to "reclaim" is a "right" which you don't actually have, i.e., to reserve a parking place for yourself in the public street outside your home. Why don't you restore the driveway to a usable state?

OldMrBrennan83 · 09-02-2016 10:35PM

This post has been deleted.

Rubber_Soul · 09-02-2016 10:39PM

gizmo555 wrote: »

Your neighbour's right. Not about the screaming, but it is a public street. And from your description, your "driveway" is no longer really a driveway. What you really want to "reclaim" is a "right" which you don't actually have, i.e., to reserve a parking place for yourself in the public street outside your home. Why don't you restore the driveway to a usable state?

I'm fully aware it's a public street and I've no "right" to park anywhere except my own driveway. I simply wanted clarification as to what constitutes a driveway so I know where I stand.

I'd love to remove the ramp and we hope to eventually. However the person for whom the ramp was built has only recently moved into a nursing home. Given they still own the home and may potentially be back in the house visiting we don't feel it's correct to remove their only access.

Senna · 09-02-2016 10:51PM

Not sure I understand completely. Does your house have a driveway that's no longer a driveway because of a ramp and your neighbours Park right infront of what used to be the houses driveway? There's a word for people like that.

If so, is there even space for a motorbike? Now I'm not sure how much trouble you want to start, but if you can get your hands on a motorbike for a few hours, Park the motorbike beside the ramp and now call the guards that the neighbours car is blocking your access.

NuMarvel · 09-02-2016 11:06PM

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

I'm fully aware it's a public street and I've no "right" to park anywhere except my own driveway. I simply wanted clarification as to what constitutes a driveway so I know where I stand. .

Driveway isn't referred to in the regulations, but it could probably be construed as "an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises".

So the pertinent question is; is your driveway (i.e. vehicular entrance or exit) obstructed as a result of the way that someone parks their car?

If it is, then it may be a breach of the regulations. If it's not, then there's not a lot you can do from a traffic enforcement point of view.

Rubber_Soul · 09-02-2016 11:32PM

Senna wrote: »

Not sure I understand completely. Does your house have a driveway that's no longer a driveway because of a ramp and your neighbours Park right infront of what used to be the houses driveway?

Yes that's the gist of it.

There's a word for people like that.

There's more than one.

If so, is there even space for a motorbike? Now I'm not sure how much trouble you want to start, but if you can get your hands on a motorbike for a few hours, Park the motorbike beside the ramp and now call the guards that the neighbours car is blocking your access.

There probably would be enough space for a bike but not sure I really want to go down that road.

Rubber_Soul · 09-02-2016 11:36PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Driveway isn't referred to in the regulations, but it could probably be construed as "an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises".

So the pertinent question is; is your driveway (i.e. vehicular entrance or exit) obstructed as a result of the way that someone parks their car?

If it is, then it may be a breach of the regulations. If it's not, then there's not a lot you can do from a traffic enforcement point of view.

Yeah I'd agree with your assessment and honestly as there is no vehicle entering or exiting the premises then I'd say we haven't much of a case here.

Victor · 09-02-2016 11:36PM

Note that if they are on the footpath, that is an offence.

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

There probably would be enough space for a bike but not sure I really want to go down that road.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—

( g ) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises;

It seems it must be a vehicular entrance, but note that vehicle includes a pedal cycle or motor cycle.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html

“pedal cycle” means a vehicle which is a pedal bicycle or pedal tricycle;

NuMarvel · 10-02-2016 12:02AM

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

Yeah I'd agree with your assessment and honestly as there is no vehicle entering or exiting the premises then I'd say we haven't much of a case here.

If the reason no vehicles (not just your vehicles) are entering or exiting is because the entrance/exit is blocked, then there probably is a case. But ultimately, it's up to you to decide to push the issue or not.

Unless of course someone else were to get in touch with your local traffic wardens

Rubber_Soul · 10-02-2016 01:49AM

Victor wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/printIt seems it must be a vehicular entrance, but note that vehicle includes a pedal cycle or motor cycle (don't have a link to that for the moment).

Off on a bit of a tangent here. Let's say we did have a bike, any idea how much of our driveway they would have to be parked in front of in order for it to be deemed as blocked? If we can steer the bike around the car then we surely couldn't complain that we were blocked in?

Victor · 10-02-2016 02:25AM

Does your bicycle / tricycle fit?

Rubber_Soul · 10-02-2016 02:52PM

Victor wrote: »

Does your bicycle / tricycle fit?

Not without going past our pillar to get around the car no.

Senna · 10-02-2016 08:06PM

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

Off on a bit of a tangent here. Let's say we did have a bike, any idea how much of our driveway they would have to be parked in front of in order for it to be deemed as blocked? If we can steer the bike around the car then we surely couldn't complain that we were blocked in?

Think there is actually a more simple answer to all this. There is a ramp, so is there clear access for a wheelchair? Doesn't mater if you need the access for the wheelchair today, you may need it tomorrow or next month, your neighbours car is blocking the access for a wheelchair, the wheelchair user will/may arrive in a car with a side ramp. The ramp is the answer to all this, the guards will side with possible wheelchair access even if it's not needed daily.

Pat Mustard · 10-02-2016 08:33PM

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

Not without going past our pillar to get around the car no.

Looking at the definition which states that a pedal cycle is a vehicle, if somebody has a bike and if they bring their bike in and out through an entrance/exit, then it should be an entrance/exit for vehicles.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

36. (1) Save as otherwise provided for in these Regulations and subject to article 5 a vehicle shall not be parked on a public road at a location, in a manner or for a purpose, referred to in sub-article (2).
(2) A vehicle shall not be parked—
( g ) in any place, position or manner that will result in the vehicle obstructing an entrance or an exit for vehicles to or from a premises, save with the consent of the occupier of such premises;

If your neighbours obstruct the entrance, you should just telephone the local authority (or Gardai) and have them deal with it.

Let your neighbours argue the toss in front of a judge and see how far they get.

Marcusm · 10-02-2016 08:51PM

It is also entirely irrelevant whether the occupier of the premises has or uses a vehicle to enter the premises - the question is one whether the entrance is blocked. While "vehicle" is not defined in the Road Traffic Act 1961, given the definition of "mechanically propelled vehicle" includes powered bicycles, I find it hard to believe that "vehicle" would not be construed as to include "bicycle". Presumably the neighbour would get to argue with a towtruck rather than a judge?

Victor · 10-02-2016 09:07PM

Marcusm wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that "vehicle" would not be construed as to include "bicycle".

Already established.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html

“pedal cycle” means a vehicle which is a pedal bicycle or pedal tricycle;

esforum · 10-02-2016 09:20PM

Its a driveway and if you are unable to drive your vehicle in as a result of someones parking, that can be enforced. The fact that may not have intended to drive in, well lets just say you did.

Next time, tell the neighbour you wish to access your driveway, then call the Gardai and just say you are trying to get in to your drive and your neighbour refuses to move, they will probable take a while to get there being a minor complaint but they will get there eventually. Also take a pic on the phone and show them in case the car has moved. At the very least they can knock in and tell them to cop th **** on.

gizmo555 · 11-02-2016 12:24AM

Marcusm wrote: »

It is also entirely irrelevant whether the occupier of the premises has or uses a vehicle to enter the premises - the question is one whether the entrance is blocked.

You may be right in principle, but in practice, what kind of reaction would you expect from the guards? Once they realise the OP doesn't actually want to use the entrance at all, but just wants to park his car in the street where the neighbour parks hers, how stringent would you expect their enforcement to be?

dev100 · 11-02-2016 12:39AM

The simple solution is to park where your neighbour parks her car do it enough times to annoy her !!! Don't get into a slagging match tell her it's a public road ,she won't be long telling the daughters bf to park else where

Pat Mustard · 11-02-2016 12:40AM

Marcusm wrote: »

Presumably the neighbour would get to argue with a towtruck rather than a judge?

You are correct. I suppose it that it is also open to the local authority/Gardai to deal with the matter by summons, if a tow truck was not available.

Marcusm wrote: »

It is also entirely irrelevant whether the occupier of the premises has or uses a vehicle to enter the premises - the question is one whether the entrance is blocked.

The question is not whether the occupier uses a vehicle to enter the premises or whether an entrance is blocked but whether "an entrance or an exit for vehicles" to or from a premises is blocked.

If it is not an entrance/exit for vehicles, no offence is committed.

Therefore, we need to know if it is "an entrance or an exit for vehicles", bearing in mind that the wheelchair ramp has changed the layout to the extent that the entrance/exit cannot be used for cars. In any event, it appears that it can be used for bicycles. The legislation states that a bicycle is a vehicle.

Therefore, if it is an entrance for bicycles, it must be an entrance for vehicles.

Therefore, obstruction of the entrance is an offence.

Senna · 11-02-2016 02:32AM

Pat Mustard wrote: »

You are correct. I suppose it that it is also open to the local authority/Gardai to deal with the matter by summons, if a tow truck was not available.

The question is not whether the occupier uses a vehicle to enter the premises or whether an entrance is blocked but whether "an entrance or an exit for vehicles" to or from a premises is blocked.

If it is not an entrance/exit for vehicles, no offence is committed.

Therefore, we need to know if it is "an entrance or an exit for vehicles", bearing in mind that the wheelchair ramp has changed the layout to the extent that the entrance/exit cannot be used for cars. In any event, it appears that it can be used for bicycles. The legislation states that a bicycle is a vehicle.

Therefore, if it is an entrance for bicycles, it must be an entrance for vehicles.

Therefore, obstruction of the entrance is an offence.

I would like to see someone argue that a wheelchair doesn't mean the stipulations of the law, but if it was a bike, then that's fine.

Guards would put an end to this very quickly, I've seen them deal with someone who wouldn't move their car for an elderly lady trying to get in her car. That guard happening to come out of the cafe at the right time was poetic justice.

Pat Mustard · 11-02-2016 10:21AM

Senna wrote: »

I would like to see someone argue that a wheelchair doesn't mean the stipulations of the law, but if it was a bike, then that's fine.

In this context, the law seems clear enough that a wheelchair is not a vehicle but that a bike is a vehicle.

(5) A reference to a vehicle in these Regulations shall, unless otherwise specified, mean a mechanically propelled vehicle (other than a mechanically propelled wheelchair) and a pedal cycle.

Marcusm · 12-02-2016 02:21PM

Senna wrote: »

I would like to see someone argue that a wheelchair doesn't mean the stipulations of the law, but if it was a bike, then that's fine.

Guards would put an end to this very quickly, I've seen them deal with someone who wouldn't move their car for an elderly lady trying to get in her car. That guard happening to come out of the cafe at the right time was poetic justice.

A wheelchair needs access from the footway not the roadway. Accordingly, someone obstructing the entry from the roadway would not be obstructing the footway entrance. By contrast, the bicycle is required to use the roadway and is entitled to access directly from the roadway.

TheW1zard · 30-08-2020 11:26PM

Did you get your driveway sorted!?

Blocking driveway

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