Can a landlord refuse to rent to me?

starling · 09-02-2016 08:56AM #1

My current living situation is untenable and I have to find a new place, but I'm really struggling to find anything. My only income is Disability Allowance, and since hardly anyone accepts rent supplement I'm sadly resigned to having to pay the full rent myself. Unfortunately this obviously leaves me at the lower end of the rental market. Previously I've always lived alone, but rents are so high now that I'm also trying to resign myself to sharing with other people.

I've been looking at house shares I can barely afford, but last week I found one that seemed ideal - a house in the right area, a nice big room, the other girls in the house seemed very nice, and so on. The red flags started to pop up when the girl who was showing the room told me that the landlord will only accept cash and won't give receipts or a rent book - but again, I am in a beggars-can't-be-choosers situation here, so I was prepared to overlook it. The room, the house and the prospective housemates were the nicest I'd found within my limited means, so I was prepared to compromise.

Anyway, everything seemed on track, but this morning the girl texted me to say that she'd contacted the landlord and he had refused me because I wasn't working and he wants "professionals only."

I know that as of 1 January the law says that a landlord can't refuse to rent to someone on the grounds that they are recieving a social welfare payment, but can a landlord still refuse to rent to someone specifically on the grounds that they're not in full-time employment? I can afford to pay the rent, and I'm able to pull my weight when it comes to the cleaning and so on.

Obviously I know it's a seller's market and that in practice a landlord can pick and choose whichever prospective tenants he wants - all he has to do is give another reason why the room is being let to someone else - I'm just looking for clarification on the legal point.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-02-2016 09:21AM

Many landlords have previously had issues with people on welfare not paying/not getting their welfare and then acting like it's not their responsibility. The law is very protective of tenants in these situations if they're stubborn enough to overhold.

Not saying you'd do this personally but it's just a reason many landlords won't accept someone on welfare.

The other situation is that if it's all cash, it could be that it's under the table and he doesn't want anyone on welfare possibly exposing the place to the scrutiny, especially if he's thinking that someone will then be applying for rent allowance in the future.

What you can do is make a complaint to the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission www.ihrec.ie. What's likely to happen is that you still won't be able to live there but the landlord will get a rap over the knuckles.

starling · 09-02-2016 09:46AM

Yes - I know why people on social welfare are discriminated against. What I'm asking is, is it still legal, in light of the recent changes to the law?

I don't want to live there. A dodgy landlord who only accepts cash and doesn't give receipts or actual written leases is one thing, but a dodgy landlord whom I've effectively had to threaten before even moving in is quite another - no point just crossing my fingers and hoping he doesn't decide to act the bollix when the tenancy has already started off on a sour note. I just want to know for sure whether the law allows him, or future prospective landlords, to refuse someone like me on the basis that I'm "not professional" i.e. not working.

2smiggy · 09-02-2016 09:55AM

well he is asking for cash, and not rent book involved. So not sure how legal that is ?

you can probably cause a head ache for the landlord, but I doubt this is going to get you moved into the house. Up to yourself really.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-02-2016 10:05AM

starling wrote: »

Yes - I know why people on social welfare are discriminated against. What I'm asking is, is it still legal, in light of the recent changes to the law?

But you already know it's illegal, you've even quoted the change to the law. I've given your next step, a complaint to IHREC. However, I don't know the scope of their investigations, burden of proof, etc. and since you heard from someone who wasn't the landlord, then they could just claim it was a misunderstanding and come up with another excuse.

Ri_Nollaig · 09-02-2016 10:12AM

I was under the impression that while they changed the law removing ads that say "No Rent Allowance accepted" etc, its still their property and they can choose exactly who they want to rent to. If they wanted to be completely racist, sexist, bigoted, etc that's their business [...once they don't openly say it obviously] and to be honest, its private property they can do what they want with it.
If you were the landlord and given the choice between two tenants, one paying via social welfare and one not, would you honestly do any different?

Saying that, once he does rent to someone he has to follow the current tenant laws which means offering a rent book, correct notice periods, registration to PRTB, etc etc. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html.

starling · 09-02-2016 10:12AM

Honestly, short of just multi-quoting my last two posts and putting bold tags on everything, I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.

I know he's a tax dodging scumbag. Like I said I was prepared to overlook that and take a chance because I need somewhere to live.

I don't want to live there. I'm not trying to force this guy into renting to me. Nor am I trying to "cause a headache" or get back at anyone. That doesn't solve my housing need, therefore it's a waste of my time and energy.

I'm asking for clarification on the legal point because my house search is clearly going to be continuing, and I want to know what the law says about this. That's all.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-02-2016 10:15AM

starling wrote: »

I'm asking for clarification on the legal point because my house search is clearly going to be continuing, and I want to know what the law says about this. That's all.

Yes, it's illegal. No, it doesn't help you get a rental.

All you and anyone else can do is report them and maybe the message will sink in eventually.

starling · 09-02-2016 10:25AM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

But you already know it's illegal, you've even quoted the change to the law.

No - I know it's illegal to refuse to rent to someone because they are receiving a SW payment. But I don't know whether a LL can still refuse to rent to someone who is not working. I can see how that might look like splitting hairs, but "not working" and "receiving SW benefits" aren't always the same thing (even if they happen to be, in my case). What I'm asking is whether "professionals only" counts in the eyes of the law as being the same as "no SW recipients," or whether that is one of those peculiar loopholes of Irish law. I would feel more confident going forward if I felt I had a full understanding of exactly where I stood.

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I've given your next step, a complaint to IHREC. However, I don't know the scope of their investigations, burden of proof, etc. and since you heard from someone who wasn't the landlord, then they could just claim it was a misunderstanding and come up with another excuse.

That's not my next step - my next step is to keep looking and forget about this guy because I have more important things to do than trying to get back at him or strong arm him into renting to me.

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-02-2016 10:28AM

starling wrote: »

That's not my next step - my next step is to keep looking and forget about this guy because I have more important things to do than trying to get back at him or strong arm him into renting to me.

If no one reports them, nothing will change.

starling · 09-02-2016 10:32AM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

If no one reports them, nothing will change.

I'm homeless and disabled. When you're in my shoes, you can judge me. In the meantime, I'll focus my limited energy and resources on solving the more immediate problem of where I'm going to be sleeping a month from now, if that's okay with you?

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-02-2016 10:38AM

starling wrote: »

I'm homeless and disabled. When you're in my shoes, you can judge me. In the meantime, I'll focus my limited energy and resources on solving the more immediate problem of where I'm going to be sleeping a month from now, if that's okay with you?

You looked for advice, the advice is report them and move on and you're lashing out at me for this advice. You can take it or leave it, it has no bearing on me.

farawaygrass · 09-02-2016 10:39AM

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

Saying that, once he does rent to someone he has to follow the current tenant laws which means offering a rent book, correct notice periods, registration to PRTB, etc etc. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html.

I don't think that is exactly true. If he keeps a room in the house for himself, be like a homeowner renting out a room to someone, then most of the renting laws are void. He wouldn't have to give a contract, rent receipts etc. Although even though he wouldn't have to pay tax on the income from the rent he would still have to declare it.
Imo the laws are gone way to far in favour of the tentent, but I suppose that's another issue

Stealthfins · 09-02-2016 10:39AM

I'll give the OP some advice,if you're having trouble with getting the right place to live.
Maybe reconsider moving to some place on the west coast.
There's plenty of nice apartments around the Ennis, Lahinch,Ennistymon area.

I know a few people on Disability who decided to take the plunge and relocate westwards.
Some are now studying in UL
More are doing PLC courses.

I was on Disability Allowance during the Celtic Tiger,was very poor financially.

Now I've a well paid secure government job,my mortgage is one fifth of my income.
Have a 4 bed detached house in the Burren,economic diesel car....
Had a 50/50 chance of walking properly again after surgery on my hips and lumber spine.

Happy days

But I had to be work hard for it and the rehabilitation and studying was well worth it.

Barely Hedged · 09-02-2016 10:43AM

starling wrote: »

No - I know it's illegal to refuse to rent to someone because they are receiving a SW payment. But I don't know whether a LL can still refuse to rent to someone who is not working. I can see how that might look like splitting hairs, but "not working" and "receiving SW benefits" aren't always the same thing (even if they happen to be, in my case). What I'm asking is whether "professionals only" counts in the eyes of the law as being the same as "no SW recipients," or whether that is one of those peculiar loopholes of Irish law. I would feel more confident going forward if I felt I had a full understanding of exactly where I stood.

It's a moot point. It doesn't matter and won't give you any confidence for future lettings even if you know the finer details of property/rental law inside and out. The law is black and white, the rental market is various shades of grey.

As an example, some insurance companies charge a higher premium to landlords for house insurance if they let their property to people who don't work roughly 40 hours a week. SW or not working is irrelevant in this case.

Stop stewing and move on. Best of luck with the search also

starling · 09-02-2016 10:49AM

Just to be clear, I'm not asking for advice. I'm asking about a specific point of law. I know some of you are trying to be genuinely helpful, so I don't mean any offence, but I don't need advice like "move out of Dublin" or "report the b@stard" or whatever.

Stealthfins I'm very glad to hear you've managed to get to where you are now, and thanks for your well-meant advice, but my situation is not yours and moving to the other side of the country is not an option for me, for various reasons which aren't really relevant to this thread.

starling · 09-02-2016 11:10AM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You looked for advice, the advice is report them and move on and you're lashing out at me for this advice. You can take it or leave it, it has no bearing on me.

I didn't ask for your advice. I had a legal question. You answered the question you thought I was asking, then told me what to do, then tried to guilt me into doing it after I explained why I wouldn't be doing it. I'm not "lashing out" at you, but don't pretend you were just being helpful when in fact you were condescending (oh really, lots of landlords don't trust the unemployed, you don't say?) and judgemental ("your reasons for not following my advice are not valid and you should feel bad for not fixing the very discrimination from which you are currently suffering") This thread isn't about you showing off your knowledge, it's about a specific question.

Tiddlypeeps · 09-02-2016 11:23AM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You looked for advice, the advice is report them and move on and you're lashing out at me for this advice. You can take it or leave it, it has no bearing on me.

I'll never understand this "how dare you not heed my advice!" mentality that pops up on boards so frequently. The OP asked a question, they didn't feel your post answered it and didn't find your advice particularly useful. The correct thing for you to do in that situation is suck it up and move on, not repeat the same advice over and over and then scold the OP for not taking it.

Emme · 09-02-2016 11:34AM

starling wrote: »

The red flags started to pop up when the girl who was showing the room told me that the landlord will only accept cash and won't give receipts or a rent book - but again, I am in a beggars-can't-be-choosers situation here, so I was prepared to overlook it.

This situation is very common and it usually means the landlord isn't declaring as much income as he should. I know of several bedsits that are being let out that way, the sort of places people with any kind of choice won't rent but even professionals are finding it hard to have a choice in the rental market. I know landlords shouldn't get away with it but if you report them then it means somebody gets left without a roof over their head and is unlikely to find something readily.

Usually there are units in the house that barely pass the current legal requirements and are thus "official" and others which don't pass legal requirements but are rented out unofficially for cash. As long as demand outstrips supply they will get away with it.

When it comes to a houseshare it's different. Maybe the landlord is declaring 3 rooms and renting out 4. I don't know the correct channels for enquiry/reporting but there's nothing stopping you calling Threshold or PRTB and asking innocently is what the landlord did legal. You know it isn't but that's beside the point.

He's breaking the law by refusing to rent to you because you're not working and possibly because he isn't declaring the rent from that particular room. You don't have proof he's not declaring but only accepting cash, not providing receipts or a rent book is illegal and may well indicate that he's pulling a fast one on Revenue.

the_syco · 09-02-2016 11:34AM

starling wrote: »

I'm homeless and disabled. When you're in my shoes, you can judge me.

You post on a public forum, you'll get judged.

Anyhoo's, can you do any work? Just so that you can say, when asked, that you're working part-time in X company.

Graces7 · 09-02-2016 11:36AM

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

I was under the impression that while they changed the law removing ads that say "No Rent Allowance accepted" etc, its still their property and they can choose exactly who they want to rent to. If they wanted to be completely racist, sexist, bigoted, etc that's their business [...once they don't openly say it obviously] and to be honest, its private property they can do what they want with it.
If you were the landlord and given the choice between two tenants, one paying via social welfare and one not, would you honestly do any different?

Saying that, once he does rent to someone he has to follow the current tenant laws which means offering a rent book, correct notice periods, registration to PRTB, etc etc. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/tenants_rights_and_obligations.html.

daft ie is still full of NO SOCIAL WELFARE and NO RENT ALLOWANCE ads..and many agents etc when you call say NO RA.

hdowney · 09-02-2016 11:39AM

starling wrote: »

I didn't ask for your advice. I had a legal question. You answered the question you thought I was asking, then told me what to do, then tried to guilt me into doing it after I explained why I wouldn't be doing it. I'm not "lashing out" at you, but don't pretend you were just being helpful when in fact you were condescending (oh really, lots of landlords don't trust the unemployed, you don't say?) and judgemental ("your reasons for not following my advice are not valid and you should feel bad for not fixing the very discrimination from which you are currently suffering") This thread isn't about you showing off your knowledge, it's about a specific question.

And as we are not allowed to give/provide legal advice/information on boards all you are going to get from posters is their advice.

Graces7 · 09-02-2016 11:42AM

OP please report him and to the Revenue which you can do anonymously, for all our sakes. My landlord keeps saying he will need this house although I think he is just venting re a problem at home, and I know I will have a terrible job finding anywhere with RA; I am a pensioner and also disabled. We have to stick together on this; and good luck with the search..

Michael D Not Higgins · 09-02-2016 11:59AM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

You looked for advice, the advice is report them and move on and you're lashing out at me for this advice. You can take it or leave it, it has no bearing on me.

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I'll never understand this "how dare you not heed my advice!" mentality that pops up on boards so frequently. The OP asked a question, they didn't feel your post answered it and didn't find your advice particularly useful. The correct thing for you to do in that situation is suck it up and move on, not repeat the same advice over and over and then scold the OP for not taking it.

That's kind of at odds with what I said.

The OP laments the situation where someone can still flout the law. I merely stated that the situation wouldn't change is someone like them were unwilling to report the landlord.

starling · 09-02-2016 12:01PM

the_syco wrote: »

You post on a public forum, you'll get judged.

It's not anyone's place to judge me for not reporting a landlord or to imply that it's my responsibility to fix the broken system when I'm the one who's suffering from that broken system. I have several reasons for not wanting to report this landlord. I don't need to justify that decision to anyone, but having said that, have you considered what happens to the four people who are living in that house when the landlord gets found out? Or the people in his other properties?

the_syco wrote: »

Anyhoo's, can you do any work? Just so that you can say, when asked, that you're working part-time in X company.

Yeah, no. I'm not going to lie to a prospective landlord. What happens when he asks for a reference from my employer, or a payslip? Or when the other tenants start wondering why I haven't left the house every day for work like them? I don't have the money or the energy to move in to a place and then be turfed out again within the month when the landlord finds out I was lying.

The other tenants have the right to know I'm not working too. Before they agree to let me move in, I mean. Maybe they don't like the idea of me being at home all day while they're out working. Sure, I can say "Don't worry, I won't be running up the shared heating bills all day," but it's up to them to decide whether they believe me on that.

starling · 09-02-2016 12:03PM

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

That's kind of at odds with what I said.

The OP laments the situation where someone can still flout the law. I merely stated that the situation wouldn't change is someone like them were unwilling to report the landlord.

Well, I must be even worse off than I thought, because I don't remember doing any lamenting? Senility on top of everything else.....great :rolleyes:

09-02-2016 12:11PM

starling wrote:

I don't want to live there. A dodgy landlord who only accepts cash and doesn't give receipts or actual written leases is one thing, but a dodgy landlord whom I've effectively had to threaten before even moving in is quite another - no point just crossing my fingers and hoping he doesn't decide to act the bollix when the tenancy has already started off on a sour note. I just want to know for sure whether the law allows him, or future prospective landlords, to refuse someone like me on the basis that I'm "not professional" i.e. not working.

Any landlord like this can do what they want. Obviously its all illegal anyway but when you pay cash with no lease or receipts you have no rights. You are helping a blackmarket landlord to avoid paying taxes.
Not giving a lease is illegal. Not giving receipts is illegal. Why would you think he'd be bound by any law if he's breaking these other laws

starling · 09-02-2016 12:13PM

hdowney wrote: »

And as we are not allowed to give/provide legal advice/information on boards all you are going to get from posters is their advice.

I should be more specific: I wanted advice on a specific point. Not general advice like "OMg totes illegal take this all the way to the Supreme Court if you have to!!" or "Fück Dublin, just move to the other side of the country, you'll be sorted!!" I wanted advice for a specific purpose - so I would know where I stood in the similar situations that may very well come up in future - and I was very clear that I didn't want this advice for the purpose of either trying to force this landlord to rent to me, or trying to cause trouble for him as a means of exacting some kind of petty revenge.

I feel like some people here are not really reading my posts, before jumping in to tell me what they think I ought to know (and they rather insultingly assume I don't already know), as opposed to what I actually wanted to know. If you don't know how to answer my question, it's not really helpful to answer a bunch of questions I didn't ask, this isn't the Leaving Cert lads.

athtrasna · 09-02-2016 12:16PM

Mod note
Starling please familiarise yourself with the forum charter before posting again. Being civil and not asking for legal advice are both covered there. This thread will be closed if you continue to post aggressively to people who are taking time to try to help you.

esforum · 09-02-2016 12:16PM

starling wrote: »

I know he's a tax dodging scumbag. Like I said I was prepared to overlook that and take a chance because I need somewhere to live.

Too be honest that really annoys me. You are obtaining a payment that is derived from tax.

You are happy for people to avoid paying tax once it suits you but once it stops suiting you, lets get the law involved.

Attitudes like this place a greater strain on legitimate workers and landlords who do actually pay what they owe.

(Thats not a dig at you for being on welfare by the way)

That aside and noting the mod warning above, the advise is simple, in 'theory' no they cant but in 'reality' yes they can refuse you, wording is exctly that, wording and even if the wording doesnt spell it out, once they meet the applicant and look for references, etc it will become pretty obvious and any sort of random excuse can be thrown out.

Being honest, theres certain nationalities I simple wont rent to based on bad experience and theres certain nationalities that I would welcome with open arms, again based on past tenents. Would I say it? no of course not.

sKeith · 09-02-2016 12:17PM

Why should the landlord have to rent to you. I think its good of him to state the reason he refused you. Landlord does not want somebody who is going to be in the house permanaently. As stated, he want 'professionals', people who will leave the property for many hours most days. I think it would be wrong if you removed a landlords right to refuse renting their property to someone they did not feel was right for the property.

Can a landlord refuse to rent to me?

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