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Steven Avery (making a murderer) Guilty or innocent?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    John_D80 wrote: »
    Here's a summary.

    Avery killed Teresa Hallbach.

    Tried by jury.

    Found guilty.

    Sentenced to life.

    Feel free to fill in the g a p s by actually taking the time to find out the truth instead of swallowing the first story you hear about it.

    You know that you have lost your argument. Furthermore, you now can see that you incorrectly concluded that Avery was proven guilty but are too proud to admit it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Supernintento Chalmers


    John_D80 wrote: »
    Here's logic for you. Anything I post will be challenged by people who are basing their opinion on a biased documentary.

    I'll happily engage with anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.

    List some facts which you feel irrefutably prove his guilt.
    I'm genuinely interested.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    John_D80 wrote: »
    Here's logic for you. Anything I post will be challenged by people who are basing their opinion on a biased documentary.

    I'll happily engage with anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.

    I have read additional info outside of the documentary. And have not seen any hard evidence that proves guilt. Please engage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭John_D80


    You know that you have lost your argument. Furthermore, you now can see that you incorrectly concluded that Avery was proven guilty but are too proud to admit it.

    Lol brilliant.

    Right and you came to this conclusion how exactly??

    Maybe you watched a documentary on Netflix that told you so. Coz then it would just have to be true!!! :-) :-) :-)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭John_D80


    I have read additional info outside of the documentary. And have not seen any hard evidence that proves guilt. Please engage.

    Right go ahead. I'm listening I guess.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    John_D80 wrote: »
    Lol brilliant.

    Right and you came to this conclusion how exactly??

    Maybe you watched a documentary on Netflix that told you so. Coz then it would just have to be true!!! :-) :-) :-)

    My conclusion is based on your inability to give JUST ONE piece of irrefutable evidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    John_D80 wrote: »
    Right go ahead. I'm listening I guess.

    Cool. Clean slate.

    My first point - I have no evidence to prove guilt to provide you. Therefore I believe Avery to be not guilty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    John_D80 wrote: »
    Here's logic for you. Anything I post will be challenged by people who are basing their opinion on a biased documentary.

    I'll happily engage with anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.

    What's your opinion on the fact they stated Brendan slit her throat in Avery's bed? What's your opinion on them introducing new evidence not used in Stevens trial into Brendan's case to validate that take on the story?

    Any suggestion as to why an expert stated that they believed the way the bones were fractured that they were moved from one site to another and the original site is most likely the quarry and not the burn barrel by Stevens trailer?

    To me that evidence was actually be more damning against Steven than their story that she was shot in the garage and burned in the barrel. It might explain how or why there was a struggle and his blood got in her car. Otherwise, his blood getting in her car doesn't match the timeline of the prosecution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    I don't believe he is guilty. Have seen the documentary twice, once on my own and once with my partner who was as hooked as I was.

    Reddit has a great sub forum that I have been following if anyone wants a little more substance than this thread appears to be offering.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    John_D80 wrote: »
    Obviously I didn't read every last page. There are thousands after all but There was a handy index elsewhere on the same site that directs you to a lot of the most important testimony. Also a thread on reddit that does the same as far as I remember.

    Have you read any other Reddit threads? Or do you just go to the ones that suite your misguided opinions?

    Try this one, which I posted earlier... https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/40dquo/prodefense_information_that_was_left_out_of_mam/


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    I really didn't think anyone believed Avery wasn't the murder, he should have been found not guilty of the charges at that trial, but in this case not guilty does not mean innocent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Rabo Karabekian


    John_D80 wrote: »
    I'll happily engage with anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.

    Or just put up one of those points that irrefutably prove that Avery is guilty. That's all we're asking for: not a suggestion to 'google the facts' or throwing up the court transcripts and saying 'there you go'. Just one. The one that is the strongest point that says, without a shadow of a doubt, Avery did it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Any suggestion as to why an expert stated that they believed the way the bones were fractured that they were moved from one site to another and the original site is most likely the quarry and not the burn barrel by Stevens trailer?

    To me that evidence was actually be more damning against Steven than their story that she was shot in the garage and burned in the barrel. It might explain how or why there was a struggle and his blood got in her car. Otherwise, his blood getting in her car doesn't match the timeline of the prosecution.

    But he was found guilty of murder, but not guilty of a charge of mutilating a corpse... So in the prosecutors view, who burned the corpse? Why did the investigation and case stop as soon as they got Avery?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    Senna wrote: »
    I really didn't think anyone believed Avery wasn't the murder, he should have been found not guilty of the charges at that trial, but in this case not guilty does not mean innocent.

    That's why they use the term "not guilty" rather than "innocent" in the majority of justice systems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Into The Blue


    The Raptor wrote: »
    I didn't state that at all.

    I was replying to someone who stated that the filmmakers had one agenda.

    I said that they stood back to film quietly.
    They may have filmed quietly, but there's a distinct slant to the narrative. Something the documentary derides the sheriff's office for doing themselves..


    Quote from The New Yorker on how Making a Murderer went wrong..

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty
    Given her history, Beerntsen does not need any convincing that a criminal prosecution can go catastrophically awry. But when Ricciardi and Demos approached her about participating in “Making a Murderer” she declined, chiefly because, while her own experience with the criminal-justice system had led her to be wary of certitude, the filmmakers struck her as having already made up their minds. “It was very clear from the outset that they believed Steve was innocent,” she told me. “I didn’t feel they were journalists seeking the truth. I felt like they had a foregone conclusion and were looking for a forum in which to express it.”

    Ricciardi and Demos have dismissed that idea, claiming that they simply set out to investigate Avery’s case and didn’t have a position on his guilt or innocence. Yet “Making a Murderer” never provokes the type of intellectual and psychological oscillation so characteristic of Koenig and Snyder’s “Serial.” Instead, the documentary consistently leads its viewers to the conclusion that Avery was framed by the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Department, and it contains striking elisions that bolster that theory. The filmmakers minimize or leave out many aspects of Avery’s less than savory past, including multiple alleged incidents of physical and sexual violence. They also omit important evidence against him, including the fact that Brendan Dassey confessed to helping Avery move Halbach’s S.U.V. into his junk yard, where Avery lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Investigators subsequently found DNA from Avery’s perspiration on the hood latch—evidence that would be nearly impossible to plant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    They may have filmed quietly, but there's a distinct slant to the narrative. Something the documentary derides the sheriff's office for doing themselves..


    Quote from The New Yorker on how Making a Murderer went wrong..

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/25/dead-certainty

    Out of interest why would He have removed the battery cable anyway????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Into The Blue


    timthumbni wrote: »
    Out of interest why would He have removed the battery cable anyway????
    No idea.. Disabling her car completely on the pretence of fixing it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Supernintento Chalmers


    timthumbni wrote: »
    Out of interest why would He have removed the battery cable anyway????

    I guess possibly to preseve battery life, so the vehicle could be started at a later date.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    smash wrote: »
    But he was found guilty of murder, but not guilty of a charge of mutilating a corpse... So in the prosecutors view, who burned the corpse? Why did the investigation and case stop as soon as they got Avery?

    Or why did the jury convict one one charge but not the other. The lack of conviction for mutilating the corpse should implicate that the prosecutions timeline and story was bogus.

    Many are coming out and saying the juror who has been speaking out left after one day. Which is not true. He left after the first day of deliberations...meaning he sat through the trial and the first day of speaking with the other jurors about the guilt or innocent. He claims the first count of votes was 7 Not Guilty, 2 Guilty and others undecided from what I believe he said in interviews.

    He said the two who believed he was guilty were aggressive about their convictions. What has come out since is that two of the jurors had tied to the police department.

    The whole trial stinks. They'll have to get a retrial out of the entire state. There's too much riding on it now.

    Between The Jinx and Making a Murderer...it goes to show that the US justice system takes class into account.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,710 ✭✭✭✭Paully D


    As I said on the thread on the Online TV forum, I don't think people make enough of the seriousness of what was about to happen to the individual officers, county and DA who were involved in stitching Avery up the first time if he had been able to go through with his lawsuit.

    They would have personally been on the hook for $36m. $36m.

    Either way, based on the evidence that we saw on the documentary, it should have been nowhere near enough to secure a conviction.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    No idea.. Disabling her car completely on the pretence of fixing it?

    Hmmm. After killing someone he stores the car on his family property and removes the connection to the battery on her car. Sounds so implausible to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Into The Blue


    timthumbni wrote: »
    Hmmm. After killing someone he stores the car on his family property and removes the connection to the battery on her car. Sounds so implausible to me.

    And me


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    They also omit important evidence against him, including the fact that Brendan Dassey confessed to helping Avery move Halbach’s S.U.V. into his junk yard, where Avery lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Investigators subsequently found DNA from Avery’s perspiration on the hood latch—evidence that would be nearly impossible to plant.
    Dassey fabricated multiple stories under police guidance. Why would this statement be different? It's also been noted by experts that there's DNA, and that's it. Not DNA and then other DNA from perspiration. It has also been noted through evidence of confession that the officer who opened the hood of the car never changed his gloves after rooting through Avery's belongings and that's where the DNA transfer came from. Literally ALL of this so called evidence, is bullsh*t.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    It should be noted that Dassey's statements were not presented as evidence in Steven's trial. So one cannot use them to convict Steven in the case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    Where are all the hangmen gone with their evidence of guilt??!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    It should be noted that Dassey's statements were not presented as evidence in Steven's trial. So one cannot use them to convict Steven in the case.

    Aye but that perv Ken held a press conference telling (in graphic detail) how
    That wee girl was supposedly killed. How can he even do that in a live case?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭HardenendMan


    timthumbni wrote: »
    Aye but that perv Ken held a press conference telling (in graphic detail) how
    That wee girl was supposedly killed. How can he even do that in a live case?

    I was gobsmacked by that. Must have different rules over there. You would not see that allowed in Ireland. It is prejudice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭The Raptor


    I was wondering why they picked on Brendan Dassey to help Steven Avery and no one else.

    I read the first day of the trial so far from the link which John D provided.

    Jodi, Steven Avery's partner at the time rang him a few times that evening and all calls are recorded. In one phone call Steven Avery told her that Brendan was over at his place and they were cleaning. So they knew Brendan was there.

    In before John D says that cleaning makes them guilty, they could have been cleaning anything, dirt/grease from cars.

    Other than that, nothing in that first day points to them being guilty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    innocent.

    They put that man through hell after 18 years surely he has served enough of a sentence.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭222233


    innocent.

    They put that man through hell after 18 years surely he has served enough of a sentence.


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