Steven Avery (making a murderer) Guilty or innocent?

Senna wrote: »

Say he did do it and say the police did plant evidence, do you think he should get off because of the polices actions?

Yes otherwise why have a justice system

The Raptor wrote: »

The filmmakers didn't know at the start how it was going to go.

Yes they did, they only got involved after he was arrested, after his release for the rape, after the $36m lawsuit fell apart, after questions were being asked about the investigation.
The documentary is about the botched investigation, which was already known.

The documentary is a good story, but it just shows the power of TV and maybe the naivety of the general public.
Everyone who has reviewed the case is sure of his guilt, the innocence society would be the first to take on the case, since Avery was already helped by them once, but they won't touch it. Why do think that is? They didn't watch the documentary, they reviewed the case.

This is from youtube, the best explanation of what happened imho:

The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically STFU about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.
What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.
None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder.... "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN" ..... We will see Scott, we will see....................."
This is probably the most credible theory I have come across so far. Notice how the events here not only make logical sense, but they also line up with how many of the parties involved behaved during the documentary i.e how Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas seemed like they knew more about what happened than they were leading on. As well as Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey's bizarre hostility towards Steven Avery.

The Raptor wrote: »

Yes Teresa's family was asked to take part but refused. For a brother who loved talking and being on TV, you would think that he would take part and tell the whole world just how guilty he was.

The filmmakers didn't know at the start how it was going to go. They stood back quietly to film it. Either side of it. After all, its real interesting that a man due to get 36 million was released from prison two years earlier for a crime he didnt commit and spent 18 years in prison for. Did he do it or not.

So no, everyone didn't know their agenda. The cops and detectives didn't want the story exposed to the whole world. It shows them in a bad light.

Also, during the trial Ken Kraft says "so what if we planted the evidence". What a thing to say. Of course, they wouldn't take part, they were too busy framing someone and lies can catch up with you the more people they had to talk to.

Major facepalm for you here bud. The film makers only got involved long after the case was well and truly rolling. More careful editing suggested they were around from the start but thats just not true.

I honestly think both are innocent,stitched up big time

John_D80 wrote: »

I've taken the time to find out the facts. Wish some here would do the same. I've yet to meet anyone who still believes in their innocence, having acquainted themselves with the full story. Except for here it seems. Or else guys are just making out they know what they are talking about!! 😊 😊 😊

Why don't you just stick up just one of these facts? Just to prove your argument no?

Or maybe you know they are refutable and don't prove guilt?

Not sure about Steve Avery...he could be guilty for sure but it seemed like the police went above and beyond to make sure they got a conviction. So much so, that they didn't carry out a proper investigation.

What's amazing is the fact the series of events claimed and used to convict Steven were very different to those used for Brendan. I know they couldn't bring up the other case in each but to have completely different takes on the murder goes to show that the investigation was hugely flawed.

John_D80 wrote: »

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/jurytrialtranscripts/

This is the site where I read the trial transcripts so have at it chaps. It's the whole trial from start to finish. All 30 days give or take a few. Be warned though it's heavy going and by the time your done you'll wish you never started. I was genuinely drained from it.

Obviously I didn't read every last page. There are thousands after all but There was a handy index elsewhere on the same site that directs you to a lot of the most important testimony. Also a thread on reddit that does the same as far as I remember.

So surely that will keep ye from saying I only told ye to Google it!! :-) :-) :-)

Can't do any more for ye chaps.

Still won't post one fact eh? I'm not surprised. I am 99% sure I would not find what you found by reading the trial docs. You have flawed logic.

HardenendMan wrote: »

Still won't post one fact eh? I'm not surprised. I am 99% sure I would not find what you found by reading the trial docs. You have flawed logic.

Here's logic for you. Anything I post will be challenged by people who are basing their opinion on a biased documentary.

I'll happily engage with anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.