Waterford restaurants not charging extra for groups

THEIRISHMOB · 05-02-2016 08:48AM #1

Can anyone tell me what Waterford restaurants DO NOT charge extra (Service charge) when you bring a group of 6-8+

It is madness to charge customers more if they bring in more business to a restaurant.

They should be glad of the business. How can it cost more to charge for a table of 8 rather than 4 x tables of two...

Please name and shame the rip-off restaurants and praise the ones that don't rip-off customers.

callaway92 · 05-02-2016 01:40PM

I'd imagine places have an extra service charge due to large groups of people often not leaving tips?

Naming and 'shaming' here would be pathetic

looksee · 05-02-2016 01:44PM

Not sure about naming and shaming, but I can't see the logic of the charge either. As to whether they leave tips, well that should be an optional extra, not a requirement.

The only issue I can see about groups is getting the food out all at about the same time, which could be a bit difficult, but I can't see how making an extra charge helps improve that situation. If they said that groups over, say, 6 had to book in advance, that would be fair enough, but I agree I don't see how the charge works.

looksee · 05-02-2016 01:45PM

duplicate

AdMMM · 05-02-2016 05:50PM

I don't particularly see a problem with the charge so long as it results in the extra level of service that's required for large groups being delivered on and also that charge then being redistributed to the staff inc. chefs who are under immense pressure to ensure that all guests are served at the same time with no mistakes.

Wanderer78 · 05-02-2016 06:17PM

love to see a union movement of sorts for this whole industry. generally sounds like a very difficult industry to work in. know loads that have run from it.

Smell the glove · 06-02-2016 10:22AM

You'd imagine the extra service would be because large groups tend not to leave their tables at a regular time. I've no idea though just guessing.

Rachiee · 06-02-2016 10:27AM

Don't see the problem with service charges for large groups, they take up more time to serve and can back up the kitchen so the couple of tables after ye May take longer to serve. I don't know a single restraunt that doesn't do it. It's normally 10%-15% you'd tip that anyway just pay the service charge and don't tip on top of it, you don't end up out of pocket at all then.

Wanderer2010 · 06-02-2016 05:31PM

Rachiee wrote: »

Don't see the problem with service charges for large groups, they take up more time to serve and can back up the kitchen so the couple of tables after ye May take longer to serve. I don't know a single restraunt that doesn't do it. It's normally 10%-15% you'd tip that anyway just pay the service charge and don't tip on top of it, you don't end up out of pocket at all then.

Only if you got good service would you tip anything..Its become too expected in Ireland these days to leave a tip for something as simple as doing your job.

lertsnim · 06-02-2016 06:10PM

callaway92 wrote: »

I'd imagine places have an extra service charge due to large groups of people often not leaving tips?

So what if they don't? The tipping here makes no sense.

lertsnim · 06-02-2016 06:11PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Only if you got good service would you tip anything..Its become too expected in Ireland these days to leave a tip for something as simple as doing your job.

It's ridiculous.

Wanderer78 · 06-02-2016 08:55PM

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Only if you got good service would you tip anything..Its become too expected in Ireland these days to leave a tip for something as simple as doing your job.

lads working in that industry are generally paid poorly and can be treated badly though.

Cabaal · 07-02-2016 07:21AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

lads working in that industry are generally paid poorly and can be treated badly though.

Yes and everyone tipping them actually undermines the employees in the long term and ensures they will continue to be paid a low wage, this is a problem that already exists in America.

StringerBell · 07-02-2016 10:35AM

Extra charges tend to come in only for larger groups then 6-8, you are normally talking 10-15+ I thought, not sure about how many in Waterford, I do remember feeling a bit peeved once when 22 of us went to a restaurant in Kilkenny, on a Monday night and rather then just be happy to get that kind of business on a Monday in January, they added a service charge also and we did query it as there certainly didn't seem to be any extra staff about.

Adyx · 07-02-2016 04:06PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Yes and everyone tipping them actually undermines the employees in the long term and ensures they will continue to be paid a low wage, this is a problem that already exists in America.

Not tipping will not convince restaurants to increase wages either though. They already pay minimum wage so are legally covered, there's no incentive for them to pay more when they could fill a vacant position literally in hours.

StringerBell wrote: »

Extra charges tend to come in only for larger groups then 6-8, you are normally talking 10-15+ I thought, not sure about how many in Waterford, I do remember feeling a bit peeved once when 22 of us went to a restaurant in Kilkenny, on a Monday night and rather then just be happy to get that kind of business on a Monday in January, they added a service charge also and we did query it as there certainly didn't seem to be any extra staff about.

8+ seems to be the standard in Dublin in my experience.

Finnbar01 · 07-02-2016 04:11PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Yes and everyone tipping them actually undermines the employees in the long term and ensures they will continue to be paid a low wage, this is a problem that already exists in America.

Jobs that pay low wages tend not to require any skills.

THEIRISHMOB · 07-02-2016 08:07PM

My problem is:

1. This charge does not exist in many other countries but yet the service is as good if not better in other countries so explain that!

2. If for example you are with a group and you are a non-drinker.
The food bill is 30 and wine +20.
You are paying extra for someone elses wine...

3. Restaurants should be glad of the larger group as it is much more difficult to serve 7 x table of 2 rather than 1 x table of 14.

4. Anytime I went for a meal with a group we would always leave a tip of at least €5 each. If i get charged 10% on top for a group then I do not leave a tip and the staff lose out. I would imagine the majority of restaurants dont pass on the 10% to the staff as tips... Correct me if I am wrong...

5. If the 10% service charge is charged is there VAT on this... on tips there is no VAT.

At the end of the day the restaurant profit and the customer and staff lose out on tips..

I have been a waiter and restaurant owner and it is a rip-off charge. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Service charge should be only ever paid if and when you receive good service. And NOT cover "so called extra staff costs". Same amount of staff to serve 7 x table of 2 as 1 x table of 14.:mad:

Adyx · 07-02-2016 08:52PM

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Jobs that pay low wages tend not to require any skills.

Define what a skill is please then?

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

My problem is:

1. This charge does not exist in many other countries but yet the service is as good if not better in other countries so explain that!
It's very common for large groups in my experience where tipping is the norm.
2. If for example you are with a group and you are a non-drinker.
The food bill is 30 and wine +20.
You are paying extra for someone elses wine...
So divide it up yourself then.
3. Restaurants should be glad of the larger group as it is much more difficult to serve 7 x table of 2 rather than 1 x table of 14.
That's not necessarily true.
4. Anytime I went for a meal with a group we would always leave a tip of at least €5 each. If i get charged 10% on top for a group then I do not leave a tip and the staff lose out. I would imagine the majority of restaurants dont pass on the 10% to the staff as tips... Correct me if I am wrong...
Again, this is not the case in my experience.
5. If the 10% service charge is charged is there VAT on this... on tips there is no VAT.
If you've owned restaurants you should know how it works - VAT is applied to the food and drinks prices rather than the total bill so a service charge will not affect VAT (at least in Ireland).
At the end of the day the restaurant profit and the customer and staff lose out on tips..

I have been a waiter and restaurant owner and it is a rip-off charge. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Service charge should be only ever paid if and when you receive good service. And NOT cover "so called extra staff costs". Same amount of staff to serve 7 x table of 2 as 1 x table of 14.:mad:

I'm not defending the service charge by the way. I don't like it and I've argued against it being brought in where I work ( we don't have one). I do however appreciate it when people do tip and I've experienced the frustration and anger when you've busted your balls for a large table and don't even get a thanks. If I asked anyone in work which is harder to deal with, 7x2 or 1x14, assuming same staff levels, I guarantee everyone will say the 1x14.

I also really don't see what this has to do with the Waterford City Forum?

THEIRISHMOB · 08-02-2016 11:25AM

Adyx wrote: »

Define what a skill is please then?

I'm not defending the service charge by the way. I don't like it and I've argued against it being brought in where I work ( we don't have one). I do however appreciate it when people do tip and I've experienced the frustration and anger when you've busted your balls for a large table and don't even get a thanks. If I asked anyone in work which is harder to deal with, 7x2 or 1x14, assuming same staff levels, I guarantee everyone will say the 1x14.

I also really don't see what this has to do with the Waterford City Forum?

Because i was looking for a restaurant in waterford that does not charge it....!!!

Deise Vu · 08-02-2016 11:35AM

I do some work for a restaurant which doesn't charge for groups so I asked about this recently and I was told that they dread bigger groups and the only reason they don't charge is because the resentment outlined by the OP is not worth it in the long run.

They said the trouble with bigger groups is mainly trying to co-ordinate the courses. Producing 14 plates with an infinite variety of combinations requires huge organisation in the kitchen. It;s not just having 14 meals ready to go simultaneously, it is all the little extras that customers don't consider: no broccoli for me thanks, extra spicy, could you do fries for me instead of the garlic potatoes, sauce on the side only thanks, do you have a vegetarian option on that? etc etc etc. Then when it comes out, at least two customers are not sure what they ordered, inevitably one takes something they shouldn't have and everybody laughs at the fool and then looks expectantly at the waiter to produce another meal from scratch in minutes because the first guy has launched into the dinner he didn't order.

Then there is the tip. If the average price of a meal for two is €100 you would expect around €100 in tips (7 X €15). If it is a family or office occasion, and there is only one person paying, they would be feeling extremely generous giving €50 and it could be as low as €20 or nothing at all.

Where the big table really comes into it's own for peeing off staff though, is the dreaded split bill. Between the drunks and the deliberately 'disingenuous' (to be polite), splitting a big bill is an absolute nightmare with at least a couple of desserts and several drinks going unclaimed every time. It is then up to the staff to try and prompt the less than honest which can be a minefield particularly where people have had drink taken. More often than not some items will have to written off as there would be a few table staff involved and no one member could ever know what each customer ordered. This will often lead to a Circus around the till which can upset the other customers who will always blame the restaurant rather than sympathise.

Also, by their nature, a large table can be more boisterous and tend to overstay their welcome. A table for two will rarely be trying to tell a risqué joke at the top of their voice to someone seated 10 feet away. This can be a nightmare particularly at Christmas where a large table can put in on other patrons during the night and then stay at the table while one or two finish drinks long after normal closing. This is obviously more trying for the staff and means longer hours for, more than likely, smaller tips.

Some restaurants, I am sure, won't overly advertise the surcharge in the hope that it won't be spotted and the patron will add another 15% on top. I know what I would do if I felt I was being ripped off, I wouldn't let it ruin my night, but they wouldn't be seeing me again.

THEIRISHMOB · 08-02-2016 11:38AM

Deise Vu wrote: »

I do some work for a restaurant which doesn't charge for groups so I asked about this recently and I was told that they dread bigger groups and the only reason they don't charge is because the resentment outlined by the OP is not worth it in the long run.

They said the trouble with bigger groups is mainly trying to co-ordinate the courses. Producing 14 plates with an infinite variety of combinations requires huge organisation in the kitchen. It;s not just having 14 meals ready to go simultaneously, it is all the little extras that customers don't consider: no broccoli for me thanks, extra spicy, could you do fries for me instead of the garlic potatoes, sauce on the side only thanks, do you have a vegetarian option on that? etc etc etc. Then when it comes out, at least two customers are not sure what they ordered, inevitably one takes something they shouldn't have and everybody laughs at the fool and then looks expectantly at the waiter to produce another meal from scratch in minutes because the first guy has launched into the dinner he didn't order.

Then there is the tip. If the average price of a meal for two is €100 you would expect around €100 in tips (7 X €15). If it is a family or office occasion, and there is only one person paying, they would be feeling extremely generous giving €50 and it could be as low as €20 or nothing at all.

Where the big table really comes into it's own for peeing off staff though, is the dreaded split bill. Between the drunks and the deliberately 'disingenuous' (to be polite), splitting a big bill is an absolute nightmare with at least a couple of desserts and several drinks going unclaimed every time. It is then up to the staff to try and prompt the less than honest which can be a minefield particularly where people have had drink taken. More often than not some items will have to written off as there would be a few table staff involved and no one member could ever know what each customer ordered. This will often lead to a Circus around the till which can upset the other customers who will always blame the restaurant rather than sympathise.

Also, by their nature, a large table can be more boisterous and tend to overstay their welcome. A table for two will rarely be trying to tell a risqué joke at the top of their voice to someone seated 10 feet away. This can be a nightmare particularly at Christmas where a large table can put in on other patrons during the night and then stay at the table while one or two finish drinks long after normal closing. This is obviously more trying for the staff and means longer hours for, more than likely, smaller tips.

Some restaurants, I am sure, won't overly advertise the surcharge in the hope that it won't be spotted and the patron will add another 15% on top. I know what I would do if I felt I was being ripped off, I wouldn't let it ruin my night, but they wouldn't be seeing me again.

All good points but at the end of the day you want all the business you can get!

Just a matter of having a system for groups when they do book.

Deise Vu · 08-02-2016 11:42AM

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

All good points but at the end of the day you want all the business you can get!

Just a matter of having a system for groups when they do book.

As I said at the start of my post, this Restaurant feels it is better to grin and bear it in the long run.

kayaksurfbum · 08-02-2016 12:22PM

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

All good points but at the end of the day you want all the business you can get!

Just a matter of having a system for groups when they do book.

As a restaurant owner (or former) you should know all this! What do you want to get out of this thread?

longshanks · 08-02-2016 01:09PM

kayaksurfbum wrote: »

As a restaurant owner (or former) you should know all this! What do you want to get out of this thread?

It's the internet, he wants to be outraged and have people support him.

vandriver · 08-02-2016 01:19PM

In the restaurant where I work,we didn't have a service charge at all.(We still don't for groups of 7 or less).
This changed when a group of about 30 came in one night,stayed most of the night and tipped zero to the 3-4 staff who waited on them.

vandriver · 08-02-2016 01:19PM

In the restaurant where I work,we didn't have a service charge at all.(We still don't for groups of 7 or less).
This changed when a group of about 30 came in one night,stayed most of the night and tipped zero to the 3-4 staff who waited on them.

THEIRISHMOB · 08-02-2016 07:41PM

kayaksurfbum wrote: »

As a restaurant owner (or former) you should know all this! What do you want to get out of this thread?

READ THE ORIGINAL POST....I was asking where DOES NOT charge for groups?

Simple question, but then I went on a bit of a rant...

Pisses me off to pay for service when the staff are already getting paid...

Service should be optional and based on the "service" you receive!

Wanderer78 · 08-02-2016 09:11PM

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

READ THE ORIGINAL POST....I was asking where DOES NOT charge for groups?

Simple question, but then I went on a bit of a rant...

Pisses me off to pay for service when the staff are already getting paid...

Service should be optional and based on the "service" you receive!

what happens if those workers are being paid poorly and their working conditions are also poor? what happens then?

lertsnim · 09-02-2016 06:44AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what happens if those workers are being paid poorly and their working conditions are also poor? what happens then?

What is poorly paid? Minimum wage? Or is it below another figure?

What other type of establishments do you tip in?

If a worker is working in a poor and unsafe environment then surely that is something for the authorities to resolve.

Wanderer78 · 09-02-2016 02:37PM

lertsnim wrote: »

What is poorly paid? Minimum wage? Or is it below another figure?

What other type of establishments do you tip in?

If a worker is working in a poor and unsafe environment then surely that is something for the authorities to resolve.

you pose some very serious questions there. what exactly is poor pay? is minimum wage enough to survive on? are people in this industry getting minimum pay?

my answers, minimum pay isnt enough to survive on and i suspect some are getting below minimum pay in this industry in fact i know somebody that i would consider is but its under the guise of 'employment scheme'. this person is actually getting less than minimum wage but has the same responsibilities any other working in the industry. thankfully they are young and dont have the responsibilities of most older people, i.e. mortgage, kids etc.

some massive changes are required in this industry to balance the benefits and gains of it. i know plenty that have tried working in the industry and ran for all the above reasons and more.

i wasnt exactly talking about the potential unsafe environments these folks can and im sure do work in but its a good point, i was actually talking about issues such as zero hour contracts etc. how in gods name can anybody survive on such contracts? this issue obviously isnt an issue in this industry but many others. i realise the causes behind these issues are complex such as taxation, competition, greed etc etc etc, list goes on really, but it generally means the guys at the bottom of the pile, i.e. the workers, get screwed. ive no problem tipping to try make their lives a little better but i do realise its a system thats probably not working for all involved including the customer. no i generally dont tip in other industries but i do feel very sorry for the fantastic folks that work in this sector. its very hard work, long hours, stressful environment etc. they deserve better pay and conditions in its entirety.

on a 'lighter' note, we do well at regulating dont we!

psnKOB79LFC · 10-02-2016 03:13PM

THEIRISHMOB wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what Waterford restaurants DO NOT charge extra (Service charge) when you bring a group of 6-8+

It is madness to charge customers more if they bring in more business to a restaurant.

They should be glad of the business. How can it cost more to charge for a table of 8 rather than 4 x tables of two...

Please name and shame the rip-off restaurants and praise the ones that don't rip-off customers.

Imagine going to the trouble of posting to find a place that wouldn't charge a measly 10% as opposed to actually giving it and appeasing the waitress/waiter.

McDonalds for you maybe?

Waterford restaurants not charging extra for groups

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