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Key city workers, such as Gardai and nurses, to get 30% of their rent paid by State

24

Comments

  • #32
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Notice the attempt to distract and pin this on the unions - when it's landowners wanting to keep property prices up, landlords, and many among the financial industry benefiting from the current state of the property market, who will have been the ones lobbying for this.
    Or maybe outside of personal boogyman/hobby horse it's actually more about both vested interest parties pushing for it. Both the landlords and the PS unions want more money and lobby accordingly and the government running up to election time eager to keep both on track "roll out" this idea. Sod the poor buggers outside the loop. Colour me unshocked.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #33
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #34
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Or maybe outside of personal boogyman/hobby horse it's actually more about both vested interest parties pushing for it. Both the landlords and the PS unions want more money and lobby accordingly and the government running up to election time eager to keep both on track "roll out" this idea. Sod the poor buggers outside the loop. Colour me unshocked.
    Ya as if the unions aren't a personal boogeyman/hobby-horse among many posters...

    Can you show any of the unions, as having called for this policy, or otherwise endorsing it?

    Unions have prominently spoken out on the issue of rent and public housing - I don't see any of them advocating this kind of a lopsided policy, which primarily benefits landlords - this policy seems anathema to what many unions have been publicly stating on the housing issue.


    Yet this is exactly the way those with a vested interest will drive this debate: To make it exclusively about unions, to distract from those that actually benefit the most from the lopsided property market (which is definitely not the unions workers...).


  • #35
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #36
    Cienciano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,208 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Define key worker? My mate is a biochemist in a Dublin hospital in a lab working on a skeleton staff. They're the ones who test the bloods. Without them doctors and nurses could not function. He struggles to pay rent. Will he get a 30% discount?

    No. Because "biochemists get rent subsidy" doesn't look as good in the newspapers as "nurses get rent subsidy".


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  • #37
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Here is Margaret McCormack of the Irish Property Owners Association, stating that "the biggest problem" with the rental market at the moment, is that rent supplement is not set at market rates - i.e. is not high enough; making this an example of a property lobby group calling for higher government supplements to rent (with this topic also being about government supplementing rent, using a new program):
    Ms McCormack said that the biggest problem tends to be that rent supplement is not set at a market rate and because of that, people in receipt of the supplement are not able to look for properties on the same level playing field as everyone else.
    http://blog.myhome.ie/2015/11/11/landlords-consider-legal-action-against-governments-new-rent-rules/

    Predicting the commencement of either 'special pleading' or goalpost shifting, for trying to discount a property/landlord lobby group, as a valid example...


  • #38
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #39
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    And there comes the predicted 'special pleading' - that a property lobby group, calling for an increase in government rent subsidies (which is exactly what this new policy is) is 'evidence of nothing'.

    We have direct evidence of property interests wanting to hamstring reform of the rental market (just look at any of the Irish Property Owners Association lobbying), while wanting an increase in government subsidies to themselves - and zero evidence of any unions lobbying for their workers being given a rent subsidy.


  • #40
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #41
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    The only group where there is any evidence of lobbying for a policy like this, is the Irish Property Owners Association - there is zero evidence of lobbying for this, from any other group - making those suggestions, a bit of ridiculous idle speculation, lacking any evidence.

    This policy is the perfect way to pitch out a 'divide and conquer' narrative into the public media, to try and stoke public vs private sector sentiment, in the run up to an election - all while the policy is setting up a massive subsidy to landlords! (and related interests in finance and among the wealthy)

    The group that stands the most to gain from this policy? Landlords (and there is evidence of them calling for increased subsidies). Any suggestion of other groups being behind lobbying for this, so far lack any evidence whatsoever, and amounts to an attempt at distraction from the real beneficiaries of this policy: Landlords and the wealthy + financial industry.


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  • #42
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Thank you. If Rent Allowance were raised then the landlords would put rents up above it. And like all the charities, the lady fails to realise that the majority of landlords refuse to accept Rent Allowance tenants. daft ie ads are witness to that. This is one reason they raised rents about the RA limits.


  • #43
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #44
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    You are misrepresenting my post. I said the property owners association called for an increase in rent supplement, which is a rent subsidy - and that is exactly what this new policy is: A rent subsidy.

    This is yet more state money going into the pockets of landlords - something the landlords/property-owner lobby groups have been calling for.


  • #45
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    This doesn't fix the situation. It just helps some people get around the situation. It shifts around who can afford to live in the city center and who will have to commute. The lack of housing is still there.


  • #46
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #47
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    can you point to any announcement on the scheme other than an indo article giving vague points

    The Indo article also says "and other workers" and does not say it is only for public sector workers


    I will say again....this will not be the case


  • #48
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why not just give them directions to the nearest Luas station and let them figure it out?

    The same as all the other young workers who struggle to pay rent but maybe don't have a union or are not in the public sector, so no matter how important their job is it will not be defined as "key".
    That's not really true, the private sector will go to great lengths to keep vital employees happy. They'll get cars, shoes, food money, travel bonuses.

    We all need doctors, nurses and gardi. They are vital, but this is a bit of a half arsed bandaid.


  • #49
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Clearly you've never darkened the doors of Copper Face Jacks of a weekend. This could sink the economy...

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #50
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #51
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,030 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    The problem here is a that a Gardai or Nurse starting in Donegal is on the same wages as those in Dublin. That shouldn't be the case, it places an unfair advantage on those outside of the population centers. Rent subsidies is a stupid way to deal with the situation.


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  • #52
    FTA69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I agree completely. I used to test bloods as well. You'd think that was valued by society but no the baggage handlers in Dublin airport have a better union and therefore more valued.

    Why don't workers in your field organise to the same extent?


  • #53
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,701 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Having done some work with HR departments in London, I'm surprised it's taken this long for some sort of "Dublin weighting" to be seen over here tbh.

    Contrast the type of house you can buy in Dublin on a teacher's salary with they type of lifestyle that same salary could provide in Mayo for doing precisely the same work. It's always struck me as rather unfair that a public sector worker in Castlebar can buy a large detached 5 bedroom home whilst their equivalent in Dublin will struggle to afford a 3 bed terrace in a ropey neighbourhood.

    Private sector salaries take this into account: an employee of a company in Dublin will earn 10/20% more than they'd get for the same role in Galway and perhaps 20/30% higher than they'd get in Tralee.
    a garda married to a teacher here in castlebar is a typical customer unit of mine
    they build 2000sqft homes to a decent standard are respected by their community and generally have a good quality of life
    in dublin they are poor and its always surprised me that this is the case


  • #54
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Cuddlesworth wrote: »
    The problem here is a that a Gardai or Nurse starting in Donegal is on the same wages as those in Dublin. That shouldn't be the case, it places an unfair advantage on those outside of the population centers. Rent subsidies is a stupid way to deal with the situation.

    I wouldnt put Donegal and advantage together.


  • #55
    Rothmans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,806 ✭✭✭Rothmans


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Those payscales are well out of date. They were further revised down to starting at 23k rising incrementally to a max of 44k after 19 years service.


  • #56
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 25,000 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    That depends on one's point of view. Donegal's greatest problem is unemployment. It's a beautiful part of the country, the people are friendly and you'd get a fine 5 bed house for 150k.

    If your work is permanent and pensionable with little chance of being made redundant (as would be the case for a teacher or garda), there are far worse places to live. Sure, public transport is dire but that's not really going to affect you once you've your own car (and why wouldn't you with such cheap housing!)

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  • #57
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Yea good luck convincing people that Rent Supplement isn't a rent subsidy, and that it doesn't get reported as such in media, and by prominent property market analysts like Ronan Lyons...

    Not playing that stupid semantic game with you.
    Permabear wrote: »
    KomradeBishop wrote:
    This is yet more state money going into the pockets of landlords - something the landlords/property-owner lobby groups have been calling for.
    Wrong again. A Garda on €40k can afford the stated cost of circa €1200 a month for a two-bedroom apartment. The subsidy will now pay 30% of that, leaving the Garda €360 a month better off. The beneficiary of this policy is clearly the Garda (who has more money in his pocket), not the landlord (who gets the same amount in rent as he did before). There simply aren't enough young nurses and Gardai in Dublin for this scheme to have a distortive effect on market rents as a whole.
    This shows a very strong level of economic/accounting illiteracy on your part: That's still an extra €360 of state money going into landlord pockets - showing precisely that I am correct to state it as such.

    Previous government payment to landlord in this case: €0.
    Afterward government payment to landlord: €360.


  • #58
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Previous government payment to landlord in this case: €0.
    Afterward government payment to landlord: €360.
    Yes, but the salient point is the landlord is getting the same amount of money as before, eh or she doesn't seen any difference at the end of the month, the public worker does as they have 360 extra quid to work with.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #59
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #60
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yes, but the salient point is the landlord is getting the same amount of money as before, eh or she doesn't seen any difference at the end of the month, the public worker does as they have 360 extra quid to work with.
    No the salient point is that the state is now paying the landlord that portion of money - that's what makes it a subsidy, that's what makes my statement of 'yet more state money going into the pockets of landlords' correct.

    It also has an upward effect on rents as well - as the rent can be increased yet more, to soak up the spare money these tenants find themselves with - which you can guarantee will happen in the current market, and with the landlord lobbies fighting rent restrictions.


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  • #61
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    You're trying to shift goalposts by nitpicking over the world 'extra' - the original statement was: "yet more state money going into the pockets of landlords".

    The focus in that statement was never on the landlords balance, or the Gardai's balance - it was on the states balance.

    At the end of the day, this policy has more public money going into the pockets of landlords. A factually true statement, with the only reason for contesting that, being to try and downplay it.


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