Cecil Rhodes and removing traces of colonialism/bad things

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 02:57PM

gutenberg wrote: »

Is it truly though, when the majority of beneficiaries are (usually elite) Americans...?

* not criticising you btw, more thinking out loud!

I'm surprised that so many are American. It would be interesting to understand why. It looks like there were also a number dedicated for Germans as well.

It was set up over 100 years ago though, so the logic back then may have been different.

I see there is also a Mandela Rhodes foundation in South Africa.

recipio · 02-02-2016 03:00PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

But wasn't Ghandi famous for something else ? I'm struggling to find much commendable about Cecil. I'll admit though he is interesting.

Well, he was a keen wool spinner - that's why there is a wheel in the centre of the Indian flag.:D You can't edit history - the Oxford students should read a little of it.
The is an excellent docudrama called 'Rhodes' ( strangely enough ) starring Martin Shaw put out in 1996. Worth a look.

steddyeddy · 02-02-2016 03:01PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nothing can be done to change that though. Surely his scholarship is a way of making amends?

Yes it is. That's my point.

KomradeBishop · 02-02-2016 03:03PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nothing can be done to change that though. Surely his scholarship is a way of making amends?

There is something that can be done: Confiscate the funds and use them to make reparations - only fair, right?

I don't view that as politically practical (if they can't even remove a statue...), but the idea that nothing can be done there, is false.

StudentDad · 02-02-2016 03:20PM

This has the look and feel of cultural whitewashing. Never a good road to go down. It's like a family shunning uncle so and so because he went off and did something the family didn't approve of. When we start to redact chunks of history because it's distasteful to current tastes we lose something of ourselves in the process.

SD

tommyboy2222 · 02-02-2016 03:29PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U

stevedublin · 02-02-2016 03:39PM

diomed wrote: »

When should the statue of Cecil Rhodes be removed? When Africa gives grant aid to the UK and the EU.

but that's at least 5 years away!

K-9 · 02-02-2016 03:40PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

There is a false equivalency that has popped up a few times already in this thread (statues of Stalin in Poland also mentioned), this isn't a statue of Rhodes in Africa its in a college in England, its geographically far removed from where he was a symbol of oppression.

If somebody wanted a statue of Cromwell removed in England I'd say they are entitled to that view as well. Many don't know he wasn't that nice a lad at all.

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 03:46PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

There is something that can be done: Confiscate the funds and use them to make reparations - only fair, right?

I don't view that as politically practical (if they can't even remove a statue...), but the idea that nothing can be done there, is false.

Reperations to who? Give the money to Zimbabwe so Mrs Mugabe can go on another shopping spree?

A scholarship scheme like this seems a fair and reasonable thing to do.

tritium · 02-02-2016 04:00PM

I doubt theres a square inch of land on the planet that hasn't been conquered and reconquered. Pretty much every people on the earth have at some point in their past been both sinners and sinned against. How far exactly should we be allowed to go before we draw the line and say you're no longer liable to atonement?

Stolen Nazi art retaken, cool. What about the contents of most modern museums-mostly stolen too. Give back the proceeds of the British empires exploitation? OK, and what about the wealth of Rome and Athens? Or has that been laundered enough to be respectable. Reparations to Africa? Should they in turn make reparations to the tribes they conquered and exploited? And what about the Belgians? Real bastards in their day, but they've also suffered terribly since. Does it even out or can you actually do a netting arrangement with this kind if thing?

It all comes down to a grubby little exercise in making one groups hurt and suffering more meaningful than anothers. A mantra of " I have hurt in my past so now someone better pay". And how fitting that its a college of little more than children who are having this particular tantrum.

02-02-2016 05:28PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm surprised that so many are American. It would be interesting to understand why. It looks like there were also a number dedicated for Germans as well.

It was set up over 100 years ago though, so the logic back then may have been different.

I see there is also a Mandela Rhodes foundation in South Africa.

I guess back 100 years ago it would have been great for forming links between the UK and the emerging power US, there was a similar idea behind the German scholarships (that didnt work out so well). 100 years is a long time though and it would be nice to see it being reevaluated with a focus on developing countries who desperately need these sort of graduates

Nodin · 02-02-2016 05:39PM

tritium wrote: »

I doubt theres a square inch of land on the planet that hasn't been conquered and reconquered. Pretty much every people on the earth have at some point in their past been both sinners and sinned against. How far exactly should we be allowed to go before we draw the line and say you're no longer liable to atonement?

Stolen Nazi art retaken, cool. What about the contents of most modern museums-mostly stolen too. Give back the proceeds of the British empires exploitation? OK, and what about the wealth of Rome and Athens? Or has that been laundered enough to be respectable. Reparations to Africa? Should they in turn make reparations to the tribes they conquered and exploited? And what about the Belgians? Real bastards in their day, but they've also suffered terribly since. Does it even out or can you actually do a netting arrangement with this kind if thing?

It all comes down to a grubby little exercise in making one groups hurt and suffering more meaningful than anothers. A mantra of " I have hurt in my past so now someone better pay". And how fitting that its a college of little more than children who are having this particular tantrum.

So you wouldn't have anyone pay reparations for WW1, or WW2?

RWCNT · 02-02-2016 06:24PM

tritium wrote: »

A mantra of " I have hurt in my past so now someone better pay". And how fitting that its a college of little more than children who are having this particular tantrum.

Are the college kids actually after anything or do they just want the statue taken down because they don't want this person to be honoured?

tritium · 02-02-2016 06:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

So you wouldn't have anyone pay reparations for WW1, or WW2?

And of course the Americans can civil war right? And don't forget the war of the roses. And vinegar hill, yeah holding on to the bitterness on that one has done us a power of good......

Question: what did WW1 reparations buy us?

Answer: WW2

Skylinehead · 02-02-2016 06:44PM

Nodin wrote: »

So you wouldn't have anyone pay reparations for WW1, or WW2?

I wouldn't have anyone who didn't have anything to do with either war pay reparations anyway.

Dyr · 02-02-2016 06:58PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

I wouldn't have anyone who didn't have anything to do with either war pay reparations anyway.

Grand, well send the bill to the saxe-coeburg and Gotha's so

selous · 02-02-2016 07:13PM

They had a similar protest last year in the University of Cape town, for the removal of a statue of him.
Some years previous in Zimbabwe the Mugabe loyalists wanted to dig up Cecil's grave in the Matopos hills in Bulawayo, but Bob Mugabe stopped them, saying "it is important to remember history".
It's a major tourist attraction in a very poor place, (and an amazing place to be buried) also called "worlds view" Rhodes was only 48 when he died..

Sand · 02-02-2016 09:29PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think the issue arose here in light of the growing acknowledgement that Oxford doesn't take in as many African students as it could. The fact that they have a statue of a white supremacist there doesn't help their image.

I saw that, but I saw a talking head point out that Oxford only receives a handful of applications of African students. Stats wise, Black British of African origin and Black Africans together only comprised 1.6% of applications to Oxford by Oct 2013 stats. Black African students would be an even smaller proportion of that.

Even if it accepted all of them (and they don't), Africans would be hugely under-represented.

There is nothing to say Oxford has any issue - very few Africans apply, so very few Africans are accepted.

As it is, the guy behind this drama is one of the beneficiaries of Rhodes. And I don't buy the "compensation" angle. It implies the same guy owes the British Empire for the investments and infrastructure they built too. I think netting it off, he will end up with a loss.

02-02-2016 10:31PM

StudentDad wrote: »

This has the look and feel of cultural whitewashing. Never a good road to go down. It's like a family shunning uncle so and so because he went off and did something the family didn't approve of. When we start to redact chunks of history because it's distasteful to current tastes we lose something of ourselves in the process.

SD

Do you not think that the fact that statues, streets, roads and so much else are named in honour of heroes of the British Empire is an enormous "cultural whitewashing" of their victims and their culture? It's not as if the British were naming the streets of Dublin, for instance, after heroes or aspects of Irish culture. We are long overdue a bit of balancing in terms of "cultural whitewashing" to finally give voice to the innumerable victims of British imperialists like Rhodes.

bnt · 02-02-2016 10:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you not think that the fact that statues, streets, roads and so much else are named in honour of heroes of the British Empire is an enormous "cultural whitewashing" of their victims and their culture? It's not as if the British were naming the streets of Dublin, for instance, after heroes or aspects of Irish culture. We are long overdue a bit of balancing in terms of "cultural whitewashing" to finally give voice to the innumerable victims of British imperialists like Rhodes.

I don't know, this looks like you're "projecting" the Irish experience on to Africa, which isn't a good idea. For cultural whitewashing to take place, there has to be a culture to whitewash, and in most of Southern Africa, there simply wasn't much going on before the Dutch and British colonists arrived. There were some nomadic Bantu tribes (Ndebele, Zulu, Xhosa etc.), who were themselves relative newcomers to the region, and hadn't discovered the wheel or invented writing.

I spent years in the region, most of it in what is now Kwa-Zulu Natal, and while I know it's not politically-correct to say so, their culture was primitive. You can probably tell I'm not a fan of "cultural relativism", then!

Hans Bricks · 02-02-2016 10:47PM

Do these sanctimonious gimps write click bait articles for VICE news by any chance ?

Eugene Norman · 02-02-2016 10:58PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm surprised that so many are American. It would be interesting to understand why. It looks like there were also a number dedicated for Germans as well. .

These would be his white races. German and Anglo Saxon

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 11:04PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you not think that the fact that statues, streets, roads and so much else are named in honour of heroes of the British Empire is an enormous "cultural whitewashing" of their victims and their culture? It's not as if the British were naming the streets of Dublin, for instance, after heroes or aspects of Irish culture. We are long overdue a bit of balancing in terms of "cultural whitewashing" to finally give voice to the innumerable victims of British imperialists like Rhodes.

Oh please, less of the sanctimonious clap trap.

Tell me one country that doesn't honour the good deeds of their own and ignore their sins?

tomwaterford · 02-02-2016 11:19PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Oh please, less of the sanctimonious clap trap.

Tell me one country that doesn't honour the good deeds of their own and ignore their sins?

Still does not make it right??

steddyeddy · 02-02-2016 11:24PM

bnt wrote: »

I don't know, this looks like you're "projecting" the Irish experience on to Africa, which isn't a good idea. For cultural whitewashing to take place, there has to be a culture to whitewash, and in most of Southern Africa, there simply wasn't much going on before the Dutch and British colonists arrived. There were some nomadic Bantu tribes (Ndebele, Zulu, Xhosa etc.), who were themselves relative newcomers to the region, and hadn't discovered the wheel or invented writing.

I spent years in the region, most of it in what is now Kwa-Zulu Natal, and while I know it's not politically-correct to say so, their culture was primitive. You can probably tell I'm not a fan of "cultural relativism", then!

Having lived in Africa and with Bantu tribes I have to say that is boll*x. The Bantu were ancient thousands of years before the British and Dutch empires existed.

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 11:42PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Still does not make it right??

Why not, because you don't like it?

What street names would you have Britain rename?

tomwaterford · 02-02-2016 11:48PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why not, because you don't like it?

What street names would you have Britain rename?

None....it's not my country quiet why you think I want them renamed is odd

but it is quiet curious Briton once tried to get the street of its embassy in Tehran renamed :pac:

bnt · 02-02-2016 11:50PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Having lived in Africa and with Bantu tribes I have to say that is boll*x. The Bantu were ancient thousands of years before the British and Dutch empires existed.

Yes, they were, which doesn't contradict what I said - which is also from personal experience. Note also that for most of those "thousands of years", the Bantu weren't in Southern Africa: they migrated from Central Africa.

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 11:58PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

None....it's not my country quiet why you think I want them renamed is odd

but it is quiet curious Briton once tried to get the street of its embassy in Tehran renamed :pac:

Of course they did, they wanted it changed back in honour of Winston Churchill.

tomwaterford · 02-02-2016 11:59PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of course they did, they wanted it changed back in honour of Winston Churchill.

Despite it being named in honour of someone better?

Cecil Rhodes and removing traces of colonialism/bad things

Comments