Cecil Rhodes and removing traces of colonialism/bad things

K-9 · 02-02-2016 02:13AM

Yep, the Carson statue is still at Stormont. I'd have no problem with it going.

JupiterKid · 02-02-2016 02:25AM

We can't just airbrush history away by getting rid of statues.

What they did in Hungary after 1989 was to put all the Soviet era communist statues into a small park just outside Budapest. Quite interesting.

RDM_83 again · 02-02-2016 02:27AM

K-9 wrote: »

Yep, the Carson statue is still at Stormont. I'd have no problem with it going.

There is a false equivalency that has popped up a few times already in this thread (statues of Stalin in Poland also mentioned), this isn't a statue of Rhodes in Africa its in a college in England, its geographically far removed from where he was a symbol of oppression.

Eugene Norman · 02-02-2016 02:38AM

Nodin wrote: »

Think you're confused there - the vote was a majority for removal.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35359530

That's the Oxford Union. Not a plebiscite of all students.

One thing to note. The "race" that Rhodes is referring to is not the white race but part of it, the Anglo Saxon race. Also his opinions were far from unique, Churchill held them years later.

We have form removing imperialist statues in this country of course, but it's just a stupid white washing of history.

That said communist statues were torn down across Eastern Europe, including ones of guys who were mere functionaries or bureaucrats. In a park outside Budapest they keep the communist era statues and it struck me that some of these guys were hardly evil. A transport czar for Budapest -- which has a decent integrated and cheap system -- who was in office from 1950-1970 had his statue removed because he was a communist. If he can go, Rhodes can go.

But there's an amount of hypocrisy here from the Oxford students. Rhodes funded the place. His funded estate still does. Take his statue down and forgo the money, or neither.

Eugene Norman · 02-02-2016 02:42AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

We can't just airbrush history away by getting rid of statues.

What they did in Hungary after 1989 was to put all the Soviet era communist statues into a small park just outside Budapest. Quite interesting.

That's pretty much getting rid of them though.

Nodin · 02-02-2016 06:56AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

There is a false equivalency that has popped up a few times already in this thread (statues of Stalin in Poland also mentioned), this isn't a statue of Rhodes in Africa its in a college in England, its geographically far removed from where he was a symbol of oppression.

Grand. We'll put up the statues of Stalin, the Poles can have Cromwell and the Chinese Hitler.

Eugene Norman wrote:

That's the Oxford Union. Not a plebiscite of all students.

He wasn't referring to an alternative vote, so I'd say he's still wrong.

Eugene Norman wrote:

One thing to note. The "race" that Rhodes is referring to is not the white race but part of it, the Anglo Saxon race. Also his opinions were far from unique, Churchill held them years later.

O I'm aware of that, thanks.

Eugene Norman wrote:

Take his statue down and forgo the money, or neither.

Take it down, use the money. Some recompense from the dead.

OldRio · 02-02-2016 10:39AM

Fascinating and yet tragic place. Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. A terrible lesson in how not to enjoy independence.
Peter Godwin is an author born in that part of the world. I can highly recommend 'Mukiwa. A white boy in Africa' and 'When a crocodile eats the sun'
Very informative. Very funny but ultimately terribly sad.

Wibbs · 02-02-2016 10:56AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Ghandi needs to go too considering his abhorrent bigoted views towards black Africans.

Or his odd sexual practices involving much younger women.

arayess · 02-02-2016 11:16AM

i for one would love a second statue of Rhodes.

steddyeddy · 02-02-2016 11:32AM

I think the issue arose here in light of the growing acknowledgement that Oxford doesn't take in as many African students as it could. The fact that they have a statue of a white supremacist there doesn't help their image.

Nodin · 02-02-2016 12:14PM

arayess wrote: »

i for one would love a second statue of Rhodes.

You'd only get all the junkies hangin round it.

arayess · 02-02-2016 12:47PM

Nodin wrote: »

You'd only get all the junkies hangin round it.

junkies having feelings too.

Surely your "we are all brothers" mantra has room for junkies too in its' warm embrace...

ohnonotgmail · 02-02-2016 01:02PM

Nodin wrote: »

Grand. We'll put up the statues of Stalin, the Poles can have Cromwell and the Chinese Hitler.

He wasn't referring to an alternative vote, so I'd say he's still wrong.

O I'm aware of that, thanks.

Take it down, use the money. Some recompense from the dead.

if they are going to use to use his money surely it should be used to help those who suffered because of Rhodes not oxford students? Somehow i cant see the students voting for that.

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 01:08PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if they are going to use to use his money surely it should be used to help those who suffered because of Rhodes not oxford students? Somehow i cant see the students voting for that.

Maybe they should use it to help students from all over the world, who otherwise would not be able to, to attend one of the world's top universities?

Nodin · 02-02-2016 01:13PM

arayess wrote: »

junkies having feelings too.

Surely your "we are all brothers" mantra has room for junkies too in its' warm embrace...

"we are all buds"

Dyr · 02-02-2016 01:17PM

Just stick one of his choice quotes below the statue and let people draw their own conclusions about him

ohnonotgmail · 02-02-2016 01:38PM

Nodin wrote: »

Grand. We'll put up the statues of Stalin, the Poles can have Cromwell and the Chinese Hitler.

He wasn't referring to an alternative vote, so I'd say he's still wrong.

O I'm aware of that, thanks.

Take it down, use the money. Some recompense from the dead.

if they are going to use to use his money surely it should be used to help those who suffered because of Rhodes not oxford students? Somehow i cant see the students voting for that.

ohnonotgmail · 02-02-2016 01:45PM

Nodin wrote: »

Grand. We'll put up the statues of Stalin, the Poles can have Cromwell and the Chinese Hitler.

He wasn't referring to an alternative vote, so I'd say he's still wrong.

O I'm aware of that, thanks.

Take it down, use the money. Some recompense from the dead.

if they are going to use to use his money surely it should be used to help those who suffered because of Rhodes not oxford students? Somehow i cant see the students voting for that.

02-02-2016 01:46PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe they should use it to help students from all over the world, who otherwise would not be able to, to attend one of the world's top universities?

This would be noble, I just found out that in the current form, 32 out of 57 are from the usa

ohnonotgmail · 02-02-2016 01:51PM

Nodin wrote: »

Grand. We'll put up the statues of Stalin, the Poles can have Cromwell and the Chinese Hitler.

He wasn't referring to an alternative vote, so I'd say he's still wrong.

O I'm aware of that, thanks.

Take it down, use the money. Some recompense from the dead.

if they are going to use to use his money surely it should be used to help those who suffered because of Rhodes not oxford students? Somehow i cant see the students voting for that.

BigJackC · 02-02-2016 01:55PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe they should use it to help students from all over the world, who otherwise would not be able to, to attend one of the world's top universities?

The dude who started all of this is attending Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship.

An Oxford student who is leading a campaign to remove Cecil Rhodes statue has been bullied online after revelations that his education has been funded by the scholarship set up by the colonial politician, the Daily Telegraph can disclose.

Ntokozo Qwabe has been accused of “disgraceful hypocrisy” over the weekend because he has been funded by the scholarship set up by the man whose statue he wants removed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12060780/Oxford-student-who-wants-Rhodes-statue-down-branded-hypocrite-for-taking-money-from-trust.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

ScumLord · 02-02-2016 01:56PM

If you start picking apart things in the UK that represent colonialism and the horrible attitudes of British people back then, there will be nothing left of the UK. All those lovely big buildings in London are basically symbols of an oppressive empire.

Like all great empires in history they inspire awe and disgust in equal measures.

gutenberg · 02-02-2016 02:02PM

riffmongous wrote: »

This would be noble, I just found out that in the current form, 32 out of 57 are from the usa

And within that a significant number come from the Ivy League colleges, far out of proportion with the college population of the USA. A handful of international Rhodes recipients also attended Ivies

Making the Rhodes a wider programme and more focused on giving opportunities to those who genuinely would benefit from it would be a better way to offset Cecil Rhodes's legacy, versus tearing down the statue.

diomed · 02-02-2016 02:08PM

When should the statue of Cecil Rhodes be removed? When Africa gives grant aid to the UK and the EU.

steddyeddy · 02-02-2016 02:17PM

BigJackC wrote: »

The dude who started all of this is attending Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12060780/Oxford-student-who-wants-Rhodes-statue-down-branded-hypocrite-for-taking-money-from-trust.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I don't see the problem. I think he's entitled to get some money back from a man who exploited his nation.

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 02:17PM

ScumLord wrote: »

If you start picking apart things in the UK that represent colonialism and the horrible attitudes of British people back then, there will be nothing left of the UK. All those lovely big buildings in London are basically symbols of an oppressive empire.

Like all great empires in history they inspire awe and disgust in equal measures.

Is there a major city in Europe that doesn't apply to?

KomradeBishop · 02-02-2016 02:19PM

Getting rid of a statue isn't whitewashing history.

Placing a statue of a white supremacist, in a position of honour - boosting the historical reputation of the person - comes far closer to literally whitewashing history, by helping to whitewash Rhodes reputation.

steddyeddy · 02-02-2016 02:24PM

Don't forget Rhodes basically stole resources from Africa. His scholarship certainly isn't charity.

Fratton Fred · 02-02-2016 02:28PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Don't forget Rhodes basically stole resources from Africa. His scholarship certainly isn't charity.

Nothing can be done to change that though. Surely his scholarship is a way of making amends?

gutenberg · 02-02-2016 02:34PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Nothing can be done to change that though. Surely his scholarship is a way of making amends?

Is it truly though, when the majority of beneficiaries are (usually elite) Americans...?

* not criticising you btw, more thinking out loud!

Cecil Rhodes and removing traces of colonialism/bad things

Comments