Cecil Rhodes and removing traces of colonialism/bad things

steddyeddy · 01-02-2016 08:37PM #1

Some of you might have heard of a chap called Cecil Rhodes. Well basically Rhodes was a white supremacist and imperialist who paved the way for the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Cecil came out with beauties such as this

"I contend that we are the first race in the world, and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race...If there be a God, I think that what he would like me to do is paint as much of the map of Africa British Red as possible...".

Now that's grand and not really newsworthy as history has had plenty of d1cks in its time. Cecil became news when a group of students at Oxford university campaigned to have his statue removed as he was a bit of a d1ck. The student's wishes were ignored and Oxford now says the matter is not open for discussion. Article here.

I'm not exactly sure how to feel. I don't think we should honour people like Cecil but I'm not in favour of blanking out history I don't like either. What you think?

brummytom · 01-02-2016 08:45PM

I don't think removing the statue is white-washing (whoops) history.

If they want, the college can always put a little plaque saying something like "There used to be a statue of Cecil Rhodes here, but we got rid of it, because he was a horrible racist cúnt."

One eyed Jack · 01-02-2016 08:55PM

brummytom wrote: »

I don't think removing the statue is white-washing (whoops) history.

If they want, the college can always put a little plaque saying something like "There used to be a statue of Cecil Rhodes here, but we got rid of it, because he was a horrible racist cúnt." it served as a reminder that he had achieved more in his lifetime, and contributed more to society than any of you ever will...

Fixed that.

recipio · 01-02-2016 09:00PM

Rhodes was an arch imperialist but he lived in a time of Empire. The motives of the British Empire were mostly exploitative but they genuinely believed that they should spread the 'Christian' message as well.
There is little point in trying to apply contemporary standards to history and his statue should serve as a reminder of that particular era.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 01-02-2016 09:04PM

Ghandi needs to go too considering his abhorrent bigoted views towards black Africans. When need to get a student protest up and running on this issue immediately.

01-02-2016 09:09PM

Washington State and Washington DC should change their names to stop commemorating that slave owner...

BigJackC · 01-02-2016 09:12PM

History is ugly, it is full of horrendous acts and archaic mindsets. But we can't just cherry pick which bits we want to keep, as there is something to be learned from all of it.

Nodin · 01-02-2016 09:15PM

brummytom wrote: »

I don't think removing the statue is white-washing (whoops) history.

If they want, the college can always put a little plaque saying something like "There used to be a statue of Cecil Rhodes here, but we got rid of it, because he was a horrible racist cúnt."

Could always be moved just out of the place of prominence and given a plaque explain why and so forth. Put all the dodgy ones in it, in a place where people can see them and refer to it as "Cunt's Corner".

Nodin · 01-02-2016 09:20PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Ghandi needs to go too considering his abhorrent bigoted views towards black Africans. When need to get a student protest up and running on this issue immediately.

Well Gandhi did more good than harm, in fairness. Can't really say that about Rhodes & co. If this discussion referred to a statue of Walter Model or Herman Goering, there'd be no notion of it staying, but because non-Europeans were the primary victims, its seems to be "ahh leave it". The idea has to percolate that invading Belgium and invading (whats now) South Africa, for instance, are both equally repugnant.

01-02-2016 09:26PM

Nodin wrote: »

Well Gandhi did more good than harm, in fairness. Can't really say that about Rhodes & co. If this discussion referred to a statue of Walter Model or Herman Goering, there'd be no notion of it staying, but because non-Europeans were the primary victims, its seems to be "ahh leave it". The idea has to percolate that invading Belgium and invading (whats now) South Africa, for instance, are both equally repugnant.

I presume if Goering and co limited their actions to military ones, invading Belgium and the like, then there would be statues to him. I think the Final Solution pushed Goering and his colleagues a bit beyond the pale.

steddyeddy · 01-02-2016 09:40PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Ghandi needs to go too considering his abhorrent bigoted views towards black Africans. When need to get a student protest up and running on this issue immediately.

But wasn't Ghandi famous for something else ? I'm struggling to find much commendable about Cecil. I'll admit though he is interesting.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 01-02-2016 09:52PM

I'd leave Cecil on place as a piece of history. We shouldn't whitewash history. His being there would spark discussion and accounts of his life and times and remind us of the dreadful characters that were once held on regard.

The_Valeyard · 01-02-2016 09:57PM

Then we need to also get rid of Cromwells coat of arms in Dublin castle.

No?

Of course not, it's a part of history.

01-02-2016 09:59PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

But wasn't Ghandi famous for something else ? I'm struggling to find much commendable about Cecil. I'll admit though he is interesting.

He gave people with limp first names everywhere hope.

Percys and Cyrils love him.

Sand · 01-02-2016 10:01PM

The people behind this sort of thing are cut from the same sort of cloth as ISIS and the Taliban. There seems to be an extremist element amongst students who go to University not to be challenged by views other than their own but to live in a safe place where only views they agree with will be heard. Wont be too long before students are burning books.

As for Rhodes, he's a little more complex than the caricature presented. He was a man of his time. A huge supporter of the Irish Parliamentary Party and Parnell - donated lots of money to "the cause".

steddyeddy · 01-02-2016 10:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

He gave people with limp first names everywhere hope.

Percys and Cyrils love him.

He was also most likely a homosexual. Like I said I don't agree with his views (I'm not sure he really believed what he said either) but he's an interesting character.

Nodin · 01-02-2016 10:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume if Goering and co limited their actions to military ones, invading Belgium and the like, then there would be statues to him. I think the Final Solution pushed Goering and his colleagues a bit beyond the pale.

.....true. However its also true that you'd be hard put to find a monument to Stalin etc in Poland. I'd say instituting a racist regime ,treating the inhabitants as second class citizens with appalling brutality over the years - while crimes not at the scale of the Nazi regime - would require Mr Rhodes and co to sent to some sort of sin bin.

steddyeddy · 01-02-2016 10:19PM

In fairness this also features in the the argument for people who want to change the Irish flag or anthem.

bnt · 01-02-2016 11:16PM

Calling Cecil John Rhodes a White Supremacist is a bit like calling George W Bush an American Supremacist. It might be true, but that was hardly "out there" by the standards of his time. The Victorian attitude towards other races wasn't hatred, it was casual paternalism: they were treated like kids, to be seen and not heard, or spanked if they got stroppy. Being actively racist would have taken time and energy away from the pursuit of wealth.

I'm not from South Africa originally, but went to school there, and we learned quite a bit of local history. For a textboox example of the way he operated, have a read about the Jameson Raid that took place over New Year 1895. (Yes, that's where the band got their name.) Rhodes basically sent an armed gang in to the Transvaal to incite a rebellion among British expatriate workers, but the timing was blown and the expatriates didn't get the memo. (Oops.)

Bulbous Salutation · 01-02-2016 11:27PM

The French should remove that statue of Charlemagne in Paris. Should have a word with the Mongolians about Genghis Khan as well.

Harry Palmr · 01-02-2016 11:31PM

Demented college students, what can one say?

steddyeddy · 01-02-2016 11:39PM

bnt wrote: »

Calling Cecil John Rhodes a White Supremacist is a bit like calling George W Bush an American Supremacist. It might be true, but that was hardly "out there" by the standards of his time. The Victorian attitude towards other races wasn't hatred, it was casual paternalism: they were treated like kids, to be seen and not heard, or spanked if they got stroppy. Being actively racist would have taken time and energy away from the pursuit of wealth.

I'm not from South Africa originally, but went to school there, and we learned quite a bit of local history. For a textboox example of the way he operated, have a read about the Jameson Raid that took place over New Year 1895. (Yes, that's where the band got their name.) Rhodes basically sent an armed gang in to the Transvaal to incite a rebellion among British expatriate workers, but the timing was blown and the expatriates didn't get the memo. (Oops.)

Well it wasn't common place amongst Africans and he did bring it there. His views may have been common but nothing seems to stand out about the man that we should honour?

kowloon · 01-02-2016 11:53PM

Emberly Chilly Finch wrote: »

I'd leave Cecil on place as a piece of history. We shouldn't whitewash history. His being there would spark discussion and accounts of his life and times and remind us of the dreadful characters that were once held on regard.

Agreed, taking away the statue and replacing it with a plaque would be much less in your face. We need to be reminded that it's not just bad individuals that are responsible, it's the crowds that cheer them and put up statues.

Letree · 02-02-2016 12:41AM

Leave it where it is its part of history. Besides the majority of the students want it left there. Can't always be pandering to the hysterical few.

Nodin · 02-02-2016 12:45AM

Letree wrote: »

Leave it where it is its part of history. Besides the majority of the students want it left there. Can't always be pandering to the hysterical few.

Think you're confused there - the vote was a majority for removal.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35359530

Badly Drunk Boy · 02-02-2016 01:05AM

I hear the also want the Rhodesian Ridgeback renamed the Zimbabwean Ridgeback, and are putting pressure on the Kennel Club to make this happen. *

* May not be true.

Azalea · 02-02-2016 01:07AM

Sand wrote: »

The people behind this sort of thing are cut from the same sort of cloth as ISIS and the Taliban.

They're really really not.

The Backwards Man · 02-02-2016 01:13AM

Replace it with a statue of Nick Price and Peter Ndlovu kicking seven shades of shíte out of Bruce Grobelaar for besmirching the good name of Zimbabwean sportspeople.

We could all get behind that.

Sand · 02-02-2016 01:17AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well it wasn't common place amongst Africans and he did bring it there. His views may have been common but nothing seems to stand out about the man that we should honour?

No one is asking you to honour the man. The statue is on Oxfords grounds. The man setup the Rhodes scholarship at Oxford, the first international study scholarship of its kinds. Hence he gets a statue as a major benefactor of Oxford.

You can choose to pass on by without concern.

RDM_83 again · 02-02-2016 01:19AM

Nodin wrote: »

Think you're confused there - the vote was a majority for removal.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35359530

It was a SU vote, doesn't tell you much about what the average student thinks, I would presume that the wider student body at the college hold them.in the same contempt that most uni's do

K-9 · 02-02-2016 02:08AM

A statue hardly needs to be there, historical records and infamy still goes on.

I wouldn't expect a big statue of Craig to be kept at Stormont, because, well, that's just history.

Cecil Rhodes and removing traces of colonialism/bad things

Comments