Does anyone have sympathy for these taxi drivers?

Snickers Man · 22-01-2016 11:30AM #1

Not sure whether this is the correct forum. Search engine doesn't appear to be working post DDOS attack so I can't determine whether this is being discussed already or not.

Three taxi drivers who tried to take cases for compensation for the sudden devaluation of their investments in taxi plates against various government bodies and departments have failed in their bid for costs. They are likely to be out of pocket to the tune of millions.

Read about it in the Times or in the Indo

Their point seems to be that when taxis were deregulated, the value of the plates suddenly plummeted. They feel the should have been compensated for the loss of their investments.

For those of insufficient years: the situation up until the late 90s was that the number of taxi plates was limited. The government wouldn't or couldn't issue new ones. Taxi unions fought hard against any issuance of new plates to allow new taxis on to the market. Nominally new taxi plates were relatively inexpensive: I think they were about IR£5000, but that was a totally arbitrary sum because none, or almost none, were being issued anyway.

The only way for a taxi investor to get a plate was to buy one from an existing plate owner. Anecdotally the price on the secondary market just prior to devaluation was between IR£70 to IR£80,000.

Then following a court case devaluation occurred overnight and there was no restriction on the issue of new plates to suitably equipped drivers.

Naturally, a lot of existing plate owners were upset because the value of their investments was suddenly worthless.

But should they have been compensated by the government because their investments in what was clearly an untenable system went wrong?

Discuss (Politely now!!!)

biko · 22-01-2016 11:36AM

I understand their point but an investment is a risk. When it was deregulated they did lose out but no way government can be expected to "compo" them.

kneemos · 22-01-2016 11:39AM

Thought they got tax benefits or something back in the day.
Definitely remember them lobbying for compensation.

HalloweenJack · 22-01-2016 11:40AM

Nope, only our glorious bankers get dig-outs. The rest of us just have to get on with it.

Comhrá · 22-01-2016 11:47AM

Yeah I do feel sorry for them. They're entitled to their day in court like anyone else and even though they would have understood the risks, but if they are facing financial ruin as a consequence of their legitimate endeavour, yeah I have every sympathy for them.

c_man · 22-01-2016 11:48AM

No, not really.

kneemos wrote: »

Thought they got tax benefits or something back in the day.

Yeah, they didn't pay any.

Muahahaha · 22-01-2016 11:54AM

Have to say I generally don't feel sympathy for taxi drivers but in this case I can see their point. There was a small number of drivers who paid £100,000 for a plate literally 6 months before the government de-regulated and their plates were made worthless over night. The vast majority of taxi drivers had their plates from day one and they were passed father to son, they never paid anywhere near £100k for them, more like a few hundred pounds. As to whether or not the State should compensate them I'm not so sure. But I do have some sympathy with the small group who were left with a £100k debt which became impossible to pay because of de-regulation.

In any event I seem to remember Baldy Noonan having an election pledge in his disastrous 2002 election campaign that he would compensate the drivers. He's in power now and done nothing. Another Fine Gael broken promise I guess.

the_syco · 22-01-2016 12:00PM

They bought the plates thinking that they were set for life. They thought wrong.

Should they be compensated for thinking that they could rip us off for life? No. The government didn't rip them off; other taxi drivers ripped them off.

dissed doc · 22-01-2016 12:08PM

It is more of a what if scenario, but if these taxi drivers were run by e.g. an American company, could they get automatic compensation from the government under the TTIP contract between EU and US.

If a US company suffers financially due to decisions of an EU government, they get compensation. Is it also for individuals with Ltd. Companies.

The Backwards Man · 22-01-2016 12:46PM

No sympathy at all, you pays your money, you makes your choice, same as investing in anything else. Best part about deregulation was it only came into effect because the taxi drivers fought tooth and nail against a few hundred extra licenses being issued and lost.

Never underestimate the stupidity or self entitlement of the average SPSV license holder.

TheBlock · 22-01-2016 12:50PM

the_syco wrote: »

other taxi drivers ripped them off.

Correct in more ways than one. Did any of the Taxi Driver Union Bosses who held numerous plates sell any plates prior to deregulation.

I know the answer by the way.

donegaLroad · 22-01-2016 12:57PM

yes of course I feel sympathy for those taxi drivers. Some of them re-mortgaged their homes to buy those plates just before they were deregulated.

I know the terms and conditions would probably have said 'value of investments can go down as well as up' blah de blah, but who was to know they would drop by 90%?

Surely someone in authority would have known what was coming, and would have been in the position to warn these people before they bought the plates?

astrofool · 22-01-2016 01:04PM

These were the equivalent of a hedge fund buying up junk debts and then suing to try and get the full value on them. Deregulation was on the cards for years, and everyone in the industry knew it, they went in expecting a big pay-out from the taxpayer, and it, rightly, blew up in their faces.

No sympathy whatsoever, and they should have cut their losses before running up mountains of legal bills (that they won't pay anyway as they will go bankrupt). Idiots of the highest order.

Graham · 22-01-2016 01:05PM

donegaLroad wrote: »

yes of course I feel sympathy for those taxi drivers. Some of them re-mortgaged their homes to buy those plates just before they were deregulated.

I know the terms and conditions would probably have said 'value of investments can go down as well as up' blah de blah, but who was to know they would drop by 90%?

Surely someone in authority would have known what was coming, and would have been in the position to warn these people before they bought the plates?

Please explain how would that warning have helped? It would have meant the previous plate owners (who may have also re-mortgaged) took the hit instead

jackofalltrades · 22-01-2016 01:29PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

But should they have been compensated by the government because their investments in what was clearly an untenable system went wrong?

Discuss (Politely now!!!)

It wasn't an investment, it was a pyramid scheme.
Created by some taxi drivers to make money out of other taxi drivers.
And they screwed over customers and used all the political power that they had to maintain it.
Should the state compensate them, no.
The state has no business in compensating people who make bad "investments".

the_syco · 22-01-2016 01:31PM

donegaLroad wrote: »

Some of them re-mortgaged their homes to buy those plates just before they were deregulated.

Instead of self regulating themselves, and selling the plates off at cost, they decided to fleece each other, and have the plate cost spiral out of control.

Turtyturd · 22-01-2016 01:47PM

Nope, no sympathy at all. They tried to close off an industry that requires little to no skill, and was severely in need of an expanded workforce so that they could continue earn far beyond what they should. It was a nice earner but their greed came back and bit them in the ar*e. Take it on the chin and move on.

22-01-2016 02:08PM

Taking a balanced view I do feel sympathy for them on the other had it was an investment although I agree with deregulation it should have been handled much better.

The only way to make money should be by you skill and ability not by closing the entry gates to the industry or profession.

There use to be some mad regulations for opening a pharmacy and that's sort of thing is nonsense. I would also deregulate the drinks industry ( but not increase opening hours ).

tritium · 22-01-2016 02:15PM

Dereg had been on the cards for years, anyone who paid 100k six months before it happened was frankly an idiot, and they shouldn't be compensated for stupidity.

The form dereg eventually took was due to the difficulties existing taxi drivers had created around every other proposal. A large part of the blame actually sits with them.

They also got a pretty good break on the loss against their tax at the time as I recall

ohmplate · 22-01-2016 02:17PM

I don't miss walking 5 miles home at 4 in the morning watching taxis head back into town. They ****ed themselves over really.

They're also still involved in some abhorrent behaviour in various city centre ranks where foreign taxi drivers are not allowed use them. I always make a point of flagging taxis down beside these ranks when I'm near them.

astrofool · 22-01-2016 02:26PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

It wasn't an investment, it was a pyramid scheme.
Created by some taxi drivers to make money out of other taxi drivers.
And they screwed over customers and used all the political power that they had to maintain it.
Should the state compensate them, no.
The state has no business in compensating people who make bad "investments".

I think this is important, the state made no gains from this, it was taxi drivers themselves who were driving the prices up, and creating false value from a closed system, all the money paid out for taxi plates went into the back pocket of another taxi driver (I'm sure tax was declared on all these transactions...).

Tropheus · 22-01-2016 02:27PM

The taxi business before regulation really grinded my gears. It was a gravy train for those lucky enough to own a plate. It wasn't a service for the commuter as it was nearly impossible to get a taxi late at night as most of the drivers wanted to work days. Short or overly long journeys were also difficult to get as drivers could pick and chose. They also resisted card payments for years and would only deal in cash. It was embarrassing telling anyone coming to visit Ireland that they could only pay for a taxi in cash. I'm sure plenty of people were caught out at the airport.

Deregulation brought the industry into line with other countries and other lines of business. If I own a newsagent, I can't expect the government to stop another newsagent opening within a mile radius of me. Yet, that's the protection afforded to taxi drivers.

Deregulation was flagged well in advance so I have little sympathy. Time to get stuck in and earn a living like everyone else.

TommyKnocker · 22-01-2016 02:32PM

As I understand it (father was a taxi driver) they never "Owned" the plates. The plates always remained the property of the carriage office as it was at the time.

CageWager · 22-01-2016 02:36PM

People need to get real about the work they are doing. Luas drivers, taxi drivers etc. No offence to any of them but these just aren't jobs that command professional salaries of 50k+. Everyone see's the other guy doing an "easy job" - accountant, solicitor etc. and wants to be paid the same. I'm sure it's tough being a taxi driver, but that doesn't change the fact that market forces determine the level at which you will be compensated.

I don't think any industry deserves protection from the government to facilitate a gravy train for the few people that already have a licence - Im a consultant and I'd love if the government put a moratorium on licences being issued in my field so I could clean up but that's not the real world so I just get on with it.

In terms of losing their investment, tough shít.. People need to take personal responsibility. If you buy anything, a house/taxi plate/stock, it is at your own risk - caveat emptor. Nobody owes you anything.

Triangla · 22-01-2016 02:39PM

Why not go knocking on the door of the person that sold them the plates instead of asking Joe Public to stump up.

suicide_circus · 22-01-2016 02:51PM

I feel sorry for anyone who loses out, like someone who bought a shoebox apartment in some field in north Dublin for 400k only to find out that the walls are insulated with napalm. But should the tax payer foot the bill? Nope.

astrofool · 22-01-2016 03:14PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

I feel sorry for anyone who loses out, like someone who bought a shoebox apartment in some field in north Dublin for 400k only to find out that the walls are insulated with napalm. But should the tax payer foot the bill? Nope.

Well, in these cases it should be "Home Bond" which covered most new builds, or the council that signed off on the construction work and issued the certificates. In reality the councils blame the builders, home bond covered nothing, so the homeowner who bought with good intentions and has professional certificates saying they bought a well built property, signed off by named professionals who now disavow any responsibility, end up with an asset worth a fraction of what they paid for it.

wendell borton · 22-01-2016 03:17PM

Buying a licence wasn't an investment, it was a legal requirement for them to be able carry out their work.

Graham · 22-01-2016 03:19PM

wendell borton wrote: »

Buying a licence wasn't an investment, it was a legal requirement for them to be able carry out their work.

Why did some drivers have multiple plates?

jimgoose · 22-01-2016 03:21PM

I have every sympathy for them. A lot of people lost an awful lot of money, including a bit of a retirement nest-egg that was being depended on. Having said that, assets can be like that - one day it's all humming along tickety-boo, the next something changes, or the Government tweaks something, and it's all www. titsup. com. The situation prior to deregulation was a thundering disgrace, by the way - it was all very tidy for the drivers and operators, with the customer left go and fuck him/herself. Swings and roundabouts. The High Court costs High Money.

Mod-Link to porn site removed.

Wabbit Ears · 22-01-2016 03:39PM

So, when deregulation happened and supply was high did the taxi industry obey the laws of supply and demand? They did in their hoop. Instead of increasing Demand For The Service By dropping Prices the regulator increased prices. To much supply, low demand for the service due to the high prices and it's somehow the government's fault.

I remember I used to get the local hackney everywhere. Then deregulation came about, the Hackneys all slapped plates on their cars and increased the price per journey by a factor of 5. I just started to walk instead.

Does anyone have sympathy for these taxi drivers?

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