Why do you hate Irish?

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Seriously time for both sides of this debate to give it up, you're going round in circles

Go direach!

Edit: translation exactly

Oh and just in case thattequilagirl does not translate her post the gist is she is seriously bored of it now.

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

A country without a language, is a country without a soul.

Good to hear you believe the entirety of the new world lacks soul.

I'll tell those Rio dancers to leave it off this year, Caoimhgh1n thinks they don't have soul. Seriously, has there ever been a more anti intellectual, brain dead quote?

Dughorm wrote: »

So after 1000 posts in this thread I think we have proven that far from being quiet in the grave, Irish is alive generating much discussion and debate!

So many posters have provided amazing insights on both sides of the argument!

Are we closer to answering the question "why do you hate Irish"? I think we are - but I think we have also shown that many people don't hate the language at all - but actually have real love for it! Long may it continue!

Cerainly not dead! Problem is, not really thriving either.

The amount of people who "hate" the langauge is generally low, but the porblem is that the amount of people who are indifferent to it is extremly high.

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

A country without a language, is a country without a soul.

That's massively insulting to a lot of people around the world who don;t have an indigenous languge.

I've no problem with the Irish language. It's part of who we are as a people & all that.

Let anybody learn it, study the literature, poetry & so on....

In their own time of course. Sure, there seems to be plenty of folk on here that seem interested enough.............till they have to dig into their own pockets to do it!

The language is no problem. It's just that there's a certain section of Hawks out there that for whatever reason (usually self interest), that spoil the whole show for everyone else.

Ram it down the throat of everyone & to hell with the cost!.

These types feel zero guilt about the problems they cause. Zero!

As long as the long suffering Taxpayer pays to keep them on their hobby-horse, they will ride it for all it's worth!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That's massively insulting to a lot of people around the world who don;t have an indigenous language.

Ah now that is a bit disingenuous!

Name ANY sovereign state that does not have an indigenous language?
Even in the USA there is Native American languages spoken and in Australia there are still aborigines chatting away.
From wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_language
It is estimated that 6,809 "living" languages exist in the world today, but 90% of them are spoken by fewer than 100,000 people. Some languages are very close to disappearing.

For those who are interested Irish is not an extinct language:
http://www.linguistlist.org/forms/langs/get-extinct.cfm

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We were getting on so well and you come out with a statement like this? I outlined the democratic process to you, the role the department of education in deciding what stays and goes as part of an elected government and you describe me as needing a big stick. Immature much? Its hard to have a mature conversation when you resort to statements like this.

Ultimately like I said, you need to go through the democratic process to get a change, so off you go. Let us know how you get on. You wouldn't be using a big stick now to force the majority to change their minds?

Like I said some of your views are in an extreme minority, thankfully.

Mature conversation? You seem incapable of conversing tbh since you've avoided every point and question put to you in this debate (despite me answering plenty of off-topic, irrelevant questions of yours out of politeness).

The democratic process to get change is long since under way. Fine Gael have had the removal of compulsory status of Irish as a policy for years now. I suspect that this is supported by a narrow majority of the population: while polls being discussed in the media to swing back and forth on the issue but those showing a majority in favour of the retention of the status are invariably those conducted by the elements of the Irish language lobby and as a professional in the data analytics's industry, I can assure you this is no coincidence.

Dughorm wrote: »

"Practical" value again?

Yes. Foreign languages hold a practical value that Irish does not hold, in addition to having the developmental value that Irish does have. This makes it a better candidate for a subject of study imo. I don't see any benefit to the learning of Irish over the learning of Spanish and the only arguments that there are any are of the specious "but I like it" variety.

We already speak English "the" international language of business - I don't think we are disadvantaged in that regard. Learning more languages is a good thing and that is why learning foreign languages is recommended but not mandatory.

Don't you realise you want to replace one mandatory national language with a mandatory foreign language?!

Now look at the question you posed:"why should you have the right to force anyone to study Irish?"

Why do you claim the right to force children to study a foreign language?

I'm not mandating any language in particular and I thought we were already in agreement that the learning of a second language in national school was of developmental benefit for students. Perhaps a reasonable compromise here would be the replacement of Irish as a compulsory part of the national school curriculum with a requirement for a second language in general which could be decided upon at a school by school basis allowing parents choice as to whether they'd like their kids to learn Irish / Spanish / French etc.

Practically, I think most schools would continue to teach Irish (path of least resistance, their staff are already trained to do so etc.) but it would allow those of us who'd prefer our children to receive a better education to set up our own schools a la the educate together model.

I wouldn't be in favour of any compulsory language beyond national school and tbh, consider the requirement for a foreign language (or Irish) to be a rather unfair matriculation requirement for any subject that doesn't involve the study of language at third-level e.g. I see no reason for an engineering student to have any secondary education in Irish, Spanish or French.

You have spent quite a while saying that the "Shakespeare" argument is irrelevant and yet you have no problem shovelling in that same "flawed" logic when it suits you!

As you say yourself "A being true does not make B false. This is one of the logical skills you were supposed to pick up in mathematics."

Just because the constitution contains those provisions (A being true) doesn't mean that the reference to Irish being a national language in the constitution is not valid (does not make B false).

At least engage with the argument instead of trying to dismiss the constitution when it doesn't suit you!

But what is the argument beyond "the constitution says it's an official language" therefore it is? I've never argued that it's an official language of Ireland, just that the money this forces us to spend on that status is a waste (translation).

It being an official language doesn't justify it's compulsory status for Leaving Cert, Junior Cert or even National school. Blue is the official colour of Ireland, yet our sports teams all play in green.

The constitution is a pretty flawed document and an unsound formation for most arguments. We wouldn't accept it as the basis for an argument that women shouldn't engage in the workplace or for the existance of God so I don't see how we can accept it as the basis for ramming Irish down the throats of a population that are largely uninterested in learning any more than the "cupla focal".

Really? Because I haven't been convinced.

Well, they were your arguments!

You seem to be relying on the fact that it's an official language of the state. This I can see as a valid argument for the translation of our laws into Irish. I'd consider the argument that such a practice is wasteful to be equally valid.

I'm not seeing how this status makes it valid to compel students to study the language for 13 years.