Why do you hate Irish?

riclad · 12-01-2016 10:07PM

everyone born in ireland speaks english,
Therefore unless you want to work in tg4, the civil service,rte,
which covers 0.1 per cent of students studying irish is of no use to you in the real world
,employers dont really care if you studied irish,
as opposed to english ,maths , science which have some relevance to your job.
Someone who got a D in english may not be offered a job as a journalist with the irish times .

If all Students studied french ,german or it pc language coding it would actually help the irish economy .
WE are spending millions so that 90 per cent of student,s
can maybe read a bit of irish .
its an awful waste of money.
And we have a limited amount of money to spend in education each year.

IS there someone on an island off kerry that cant speak english or understand it?

Dughorm · 12-01-2016 10:28PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind it being compulsory up to Junior Cert, but certainly not for Leaving Cert.

I've yet to hear an argument for English or Maths to be mandatory at leaving cert other than "it's unquestionable" or "it's useful" which is patently isn't for most..

If people want to introduce an A-level style leaving cert that is one thing, but at the syllabi stand at present I don't think it's adequate to have Irish optional at leaving cert.

Imagine going through school, spending 1st class through 3rd year i.e. 8 years learning Irish and never being examined on your ability to utter a word of it. That is unacceptable.

Iwasfrozen · 12-01-2016 10:30PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I've yet to hear an argument for English or Maths to be mandatory at leaving cert other than "it's unquestionable" or "it's useful" which is patently isn't for most..

If people want to introduce an A-level style leaving cert that is one thing, but at the syllabi stand at present I don't think it's adequate to have Irish optional at leaving cert.

Imagine going through school, spending 1st class through 3rd year i.e. 8 years learning Irish and never being examined on your ability to utter a word of it. That is unacceptable.

The let's make all subjects optional.

Dughorm · 12-01-2016 10:31PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The let's make all subjects optional.

That's consistent. (I don't agree with it but at least it's a reasonable proposal)

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 10:43PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I've yet to hear an argument for English or Maths to be mandatory at leaving cert other than "it's unquestionable" or "it's useful" which is patently isn't for most..

If people want to introduce an A-level style leaving cert that is one thing, but at the syllabi stand at present I don't think it's adequate to have Irish optional at leaving cert.

Imagine going through school, spending 1st class through 3rd year i.e. 8 years learning Irish and never being examined on your ability to utter a word of it. That is unacceptable.

Really your questioning of Maths and English as mandatory subjects shouldn't dignify a response because its laughable but seeing as you obviously haven't read most of the thread I will indulge you...

Maths is necessary for the development of critical and logical thinking, one of the many reasons why people with engineering degrees end up in jobs that don't use engineering but its the way of thinking/mindset they've developed as a result.

English is the main language of business in Ireland and having a high standard of English is a huge help in succeeding in life, of course there are exceptions, some people don't use much English but they're better for having developed their English further as they have the option of progressing thanks to their good level of English

Shep_Dog · 12-01-2016 10:47PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

They are funded in the same way English language jobs are funded in education, the media and the Arts. Good enough for you?

So, the only jobs for Irish speakers are funded by the state? None in the real economy?

Dughorm · 12-01-2016 11:05PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

Really your questioning of Maths and English as mandatory subjects shouldn't dignify a response because its laughable but seeing as you obviously haven't read most of the thread I will indulge you...

Maths is necessary for the development of critical and logical thinking, one of the many reasons why people with engineering degrees end up in jobs that don't use engineering but its the way of thinking/mindset they've developed as a result.

English is the main language of business in Ireland and having a high standard of English is a huge help in succeeding in life, of course there are exceptions, some people don't use much English but they're better for having developed their English further as they have the option of progressing thanks to their good level of English

One's level of English is assessed in the other subjects perfectly adequately for most

Everyone doesn't need maths to the level required for an engineering degree.

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 11:13PM

Dughorm wrote: »

One's level of English is assessed in the other subjects perfectly adequately for most

Everyone doesn't need maths to the level required for an engineering degree.

You obviously aren't familiar with the standard of English among teenagers, it makes for grim reading...

I didn't say they did, I was just making the point that Maths helps you develop other skills outside of Maths; you don't need to ever use Maths after secondary school to have benefited from it

Dughorm · 13-01-2016 12:45AM

Brendan97 wrote: »

You obviously aren't familiar with the standard of English among teenagers, it makes for grim reading...

I didn't say they did, I was just making the point that Maths helps you develop other skills outside of Maths; you don't need to ever use Maths after secondary school to have benefited from it

Perhaps you don't need to ever use Irish after secondary school to have benefited from it as well?

I certainly did for several years before I decided to top up my skills.

Shurimgreat · 13-01-2016 02:00AM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So, the only jobs for Irish speakers are funded by the state? None in the real economy?

Can you tell us first what use there is for shakespeare in the "real" economy? Again a bit of consistancy required from you here. You are attacking Irish but giving what many consider even less relevant areas a free ride hence your inconsistancy.

Would you consider people working in RTE for example as working in the real economy?

I note a distinct bias against Irish in your posts.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-01-2016 03:54AM

Dughorm wrote: »

I've yet to hear an argument for English or Maths to be mandatory at leaving cert other than "it's unquestionable" or "it's useful" which is patently isn't for most..

If people want to introduce an A-level style leaving cert that is one thing, but at the syllabi stand at present I don't think it's adequate to have Irish optional at leaving cert.

Eh...? The syallabus is poor, so therefore everyone should do it..? Or am I misunderstanding that?

Imagine going through school, spending 1st class through 3rd year i.e. 8 years learning Irish and never being examined on your ability to utter a word of it. That is unacceptable.

IN what possible scenario is this going to happen?

Shep_Dog · 13-01-2016 06:01AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Can you tell us first what use there is for shakespeare in the "real" economy?

The question is if there are any jobs in the real economy which require Irish. This would indicate if Irish is used in commercial activities as this would normally be expected in a 'living' language. A sure indicator that a language has failed, would be if it entirely depends on state intervention for such things as employment, broadcast services or newspapers.

riclad · 13-01-2016 10:24AM

I Regard irish as part of culture,like poetry,or trad music or art,
i think it would be ridiculous for every student to study music,or art ,
Let those who want to study it.
many people resent it as they must spend many hours ,studying this,
even though it has no relevance in getting a job,
Great for those who wanna work for rte, tg4, irish language radio ,eg 0.1 per cent of the student population .
its a minority interest ,
Even in the gaeltacht everyone can speak english .
I did the leaving cert,
no one ever asked me to speak a word of irish .
I think i got a d in irish .

Shurimgreat · 13-01-2016 12:21PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The question is if there are any jobs in the real economy which require Irish. This would indicate if Irish is used in commercial activities as this would normally be expected in a 'living' language. A sure indicator that a language has failed, would be if it entirely depends on state intervention for such things as employment, broadcast services or newspapers.

Before the advent of stations like today fm virtually all english language broadcasting in this country was dependent on tv licence etc funding. The bbc in the uk is entirely publicly funded. In other words your point is wholly irrelevant. There are tens of thousands of native speakers in this country. Do you think they shouldn't have a radio station for example? Do you think they shouldn't have the right to be educated in Irish or have state documents translated into Irish?

Your bias against our native language is hard to understand. Its there, it exists, deal with that fact and then we can move the discussion on. Anything exists is living whether you'd like to will it to die or not. You certainly have an apathy towards the language and an antipathy.

Sleepy · 13-01-2016 12:56PM

The lack of logic and critical thinking skills amongst those arguing for compulsory Irish in this thread is beginning to provide a solid argument for the abolition of the language, never mind the removal of it's compulsion. It must be rotting the minds of those who speak it frequently tbh.

Shakespeare makes up about a quarter of the Leaving Cert English paper. The author is credited with having created over 1,700 words in our modern vocabulary. And even if you can't see why that makes him worthy of study in a subject that teaches students how to communicate in that language, it's still not an argument for another subject to be mandatory.

A being true does not make B false. This is one of the logical skills you were supposed to pick up in mathematics.

So, the question is not about the usefulness or otherwise of Maths or English (or elements of either syllabus). It's about the value of forcing every student in the country to study Irish.

I contend there is no value to this and have yet to hear a logical argument that implies there is. So far we have:

Shurimgreat claiming that there are thousands of jobs available to Irish speakers conveniently ignoring the fact that the vast majority of these positions exist to force future generations to learn it or would continue to exist were we to remove the artificial requirements for Gardaí, Civil Servants, Barristers, Primary School teachers etc. to be able to pass an Irish language exam. There might be a few dozen, or even a couple of hundred jobs available to those with strong Irish in the real economy but there'll always be enough of you with the interest in Irish to take up these positions. No one is trying to deny you the opportunity to learn the language or to teach it to your own kids.

The argument that learning a second language at a young age is beneficial to cognitive development is a valid one. Yet there's no good reason for this to be Irish and significantly stronger arguments for that second language to be that of one of our major trading partners, or one which at least increases the number of people with whom you can communicate.

The claim that Irish is of significant cultural importance to warrant it being forced upon every student, again, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If Irish was a significant enough part of our culture, it wouldn't need to be forced upon anyone. Cultures change and evolve with time (as living languages do), our culture has evolved past DeValera's notion of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads on an isolationist Island where we allowed paedophile priests to imprison women for the "crime" of falling pregnant from pre-marital sex in a society where contraception was banned (and lets' not even get into the rampant homophobia). That's not to say that Irish doesn't have a place in our culture, it certainly does: right alongside Hurling, GAA, Traditional Music and washing down oysters with Guinness. No one's arguing that any of these should be mandatory subjects of study for all Irish people and they're right not to.

Have I covered all the arguments? Is there a solid one waiting to raise it's head?

Sleepy · 13-01-2016 01:02PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Before the advent of stations like today fm virtually all english language broadcasting in this country was dependent on tv licence etc funding. The bbc in the uk is entirely publicly funded. In other words your point is wholly irrelevant. There are tens of thousands of native speakers in this country. Do you think they shouldn't have a radio station for example? Do you think they shouldn't have the right to be educated in Irish or have state documents translated into Irish?

Tens of thousands? Got a source for that? (excluding the self reporting census statistics whereby every eejit with Leaving Cert Irish can claim it, or figures based on grant claims since we know that large numbers of those are spurious).

Should they have a radio station? Not if they don't pay for it.

Should they have a right to be educated through Irish? No IMO.

Should they have the right to have state documents translated into Irish? Again, no. It's a massive waste of money: the language doesn't have the vocabulary to match up to the task and the documents aren't requested in Irish (unless someone is trying to make the point that it's not available in their hobby horse language). I have personal professional experience of this.

It's a simple matter of economic reality. The taxpayer can't, and shouldn't be expected to, pick up the tab for anyone's hobby horse. Besides, we probably have more native Polish speakers in the country than native Irish speakers at this stage, should we pay for Polish TV and Radio Stations? Teach kids through Polish if they desire (and give them bonus points for college matriculation on top of this)? Translate all state documentation into Polish?

And if you answer yes to all of the above, where do you stop? Chinese? French? Welsh? Swahili? Dothraki? Klingon? And who pays for all of this unnecessary translation, teaching and broadcasting?

recipio · 13-01-2016 01:07PM

It is a 'gateway' language - the State, being the largest employer,control entry to its ranks by excluding non Irish speakers. This is a monstrous injustice and a direct legacy of independence. Unionists predicted this in 1912 this and wanted none of it.
The real question is why no politician has the courage to tackle this policy of compulsion.

astrofool · 13-01-2016 01:25PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I've yet to hear an argument for English or Maths to be mandatory at leaving cert other than "it's unquestionable" or "it's useful" which is patently isn't for most..

If people want to introduce an A-level style leaving cert that is one thing, but at the syllabi stand at present I don't think it's adequate to have Irish optional at leaving cert.

Imagine going through school, spending 1st class through 3rd year i.e. 8 years learning Irish and never being examined on your ability to utter a word of it. That is unacceptable.

Irish is the only mandatory subject, English and Maths are optional, however most schools and courses will teach them to everyone. The only reason everyone is taught Irish is because they are mandated to.

Carson10 · 13-01-2016 03:19PM

I live in Ireland, an English speaking country. Why would I need to know a another language?

swimming in a sea · 13-01-2016 04:04PM

astrofool wrote: »

Irish is the only mandatory subject, English and Maths are optional, however most schools and courses will teach them to everyone. The only reason everyone is taught Irish is because they are mandated to.

I'm not sure how you define mandatory, as I refused to it for my leaving cert and didn't "fail" my leaving cert. It meant I limited my options for 3rd level. The only universities that I could apply to were UL and DCU, I think this is still the case.

So obviously it is not a state requirement for universities if UL and DCU don't require Irish, so the other universities need to change their enrolment polices.

Shurimgreat · 13-01-2016 04:06PM

Sleepy wrote: »

The lack of logic and critical thinking skills amongst those arguing for compulsory Irish in this thread is beginning to provide a solid argument for the abolition of the language, never mind the removal of it's compulsion. It must be rotting the minds of those who speak it frequently tbh.

Shakespeare makes up about a quarter of the Leaving Cert English paper. The author is credited with having created over 1,700 words in our modern vocabulary. And even if you can't see why that makes him worthy of study in a subject that teaches students how to communicate in that language, it's still not an argument for another subject to be mandatory.

A being true does not make B false. This is one of the logical skills you were supposed to pick up in mathematics.

So, the question is not about the usefulness or otherwise of Maths or English (or elements of either syllabus). It's about the value of forcing every student in the country to study Irish.

I contend there is no value to this and have yet to hear a logical argument that implies there is. So far we have:

Shurimgreat claiming that there are thousands of jobs available to Irish speakers conveniently ignoring the fact that the vast majority of these positions exist to force future generations to learn it or would continue to exist were we to remove the artificial requirements for Gardaí, Civil Servants, Barristers, Primary School teachers etc. to be able to pass an Irish language exam. There might be a few dozen, or even a couple of hundred jobs available to those with strong Irish in the real economy but there'll always be enough of you with the interest in Irish to take up these positions. No one is trying to deny you the opportunity to learn the language or to teach it to your own kids.

The argument that learning a second language at a young age is beneficial to cognitive development is a valid one. Yet there's no good reason for this to be Irish and significantly stronger arguments for that second language to be that of one of our major trading partners, or one which at least increases the number of people with whom you can communicate.

The claim that Irish is of significant cultural importance to warrant it being forced upon every student, again, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If Irish was a significant enough part of our culture, it wouldn't need to be forced upon anyone. Cultures change and evolve with time (as living languages do), our culture has evolved past DeValera's notion of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads on an isolationist Island where we allowed paedophile priests to imprison women for the "crime" of falling pregnant from pre-marital sex in a society where contraception was banned (and lets' not even get into the rampant homophobia). That's not to say that Irish doesn't have a place in our culture, it certainly does: right alongside Hurling, GAA, Traditional Music and washing down oysters with Guinness. No one's arguing that any of these should be mandatory subjects of study for all Irish people and they're right not to.

Have I covered all the arguments? Is there a solid one waiting to raise it's head?

You hate and abhor Irish with every last fibre of your being. We get it. You have argued it should be abolished forthwidth and has no future. So any more discussions with you about the subject would waste both our times. Good luck in your view. Talking to you has made my life immeasureably less fulfilling!

osarusan · 13-01-2016 04:09PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You hate and abhor Irish with every last fibre of your being. We get it. You have argued it should be abolished forthwidth and has no future. So any more discussions with you about the subject would waste both our times. Good luck in your view. Talking to you has made my life immeasureably less fulfilling!

Apart from the first paragraph I thought it was a very fair post to be honest.

I don't think there's anything in it for you to get in a huff over.

recipio · 13-01-2016 04:11PM

Carson10 wrote: »

I live in Ireland, an English speaking country. Why would I need to know a another language?

Helmut Kohl used to say 'when you are buying from us we will speak English but when you are selling to us you will speak German'
Knowledge of European languages is an essential part of living in the 21st century.
I did the leaving back in the Jurassic era and did Irish and latin.:eek:

Shurimgreat · 13-01-2016 04:23PM

osarusan wrote: »

Apart from the first paragraph I thought it was a very fair post to be honest.

I don't think there's anything in it for you to get in a huff over.

Not in a huff. The poster can be quite offensive and ridiculous in his/her posts. The idea that the irish language has no special signicance to the irish people is ridiculous. The poster has extreme views against irish and becomes more ridiculous and extreme with each post.

astrofool · 13-01-2016 04:31PM

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I'm not sure how you define mandatory, as I refused to it for my leaving cert and didn't "fail" my leaving cert. It meant I limited my options for 3rd level. The only universities that I could apply to were UL and DCU, I think this is still the case.

So obviously it is not a state requirement for universities if UL and DCU don't require Irish, so the other universities need to change their enrolment polices.

You did officially "fail" the exam, unless you had an exception for Irish, in reality, the only thing that keeps it mandatory is the entry requirement for NUI 3rd level colleges, Trinity does not require Irish, for example. I don't think people would care about the fail result if it didn't affect their college chances (though I'm sure the state would probably stick their oar in if it happened en masse, we can send in some Irish speaking assistants to ensure that everyone in class is listening, and ban them from studying other subjects).

See:
http://www.nui.ie/college/entry-requirements.asp

Sleepy · 13-01-2016 04:57PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You hate and abhor Irish with every last fibre of your being. We get it. You have argued it should be abolished forthwidth and has no future. So any more discussions with you about the subject would waste both our times. Good luck in your view. Talking to you has made my life immeasureably less fulfilling!

So, you're saying you don't have an argument then?

I get that you love Irish as much as I dislike it. That's your prerogative and I wouldn't seek to deny you the opportunity to learn it and insist you do something else. You seem unwilling to extend this freedom to my children though.

osarusan wrote: »

Apart from the first paragraph I thought it was a very fair post to be honest.

I don't think there's anything in it for you to get in a huff over.

The first line was a bit bitchy to be fair. But when one side of the debate line up strawman after strawman and fail to make a single solid argument to support their view, it gets a little frustrating.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Not in a huff. The poster can be quite offensive and ridiculous in his/her posts. The idea that the irish language has no special signicance to the irish people is ridiculous. The poster has extreme views against irish and becomes more ridiculous and extreme with each post.

The Irish language has special significance to *some* Irish people, clearly yourself included. That it holds such special significance for you, does not justify your desire to maintain the status quo whereby it's forced upon the rest of us (or our children).

You can try calling my posts "ridiculous and extreme" or you can try debating them. The fact you're opting for the former option suggests to me that you know you're wrong but rather than admit it would try to shame, harangue or bully others into doing as you want them to. It seems a perennial tactic of the Irish lobby tbh.

Shurimgreat · 13-01-2016 05:01PM

Sleepy wrote: »

So, you're saying you don't have an argument then?

I get that you love Irish as much as I dislike it. That's your prerogative and I wouldn't seek to deny you the opportunity to learn it and insist you do something else. You seem unwilling to extend this freedom to my children though.

The first line was a bit bitchy to be fair. But when one side of the debate line up strawman after straw man and fail to make a single solid argument to support their view, it gets a little frustrating.

The Irish language has special significance to *some* Irish people, clearly yourself included. That it holds such special significance for you, does not justify your desire to maintain the status quo whereby it's forced upon the rest of us (or our children).

You can try calling my posts "ridiculous and extreme" or you can try debating them. The fact you're opting for the former option suggests to me that you know you're wrong but rather than admit it would try to shame, harangue or bully others into doing as you want them to. It seems a perennial tactic of the Irish lobby tbh.

I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down. When that happens I will consider responding but I don't see it happening soon so I'm just going to ignore you as is also my perogative. The last thing I need is an aggressive poster jumping down my neck!

osarusan · 13-01-2016 05:05PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The idea that the irish language has no special signicance to the irish people is ridiculous.

I think this thread show that for a large majority, the Irish language has no special significance to them.

Obviously, you wish that they did not feel that way, but they do, and I haven't seen many arguments that suggest they are wrong, or missing something, to feel that way.

Shurimgreat · 13-01-2016 05:07PM

osarusan wrote: »

I think this thread show that for a large majority, the Irish language has no special significance to them.

The thread is split 50/50 roughly. There are vocal people on both sides.

Put it another way it most definitely has more significance than swahili

osarusan · 13-01-2016 05:08PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The thread is split 50/50 roughly.

I don't think that is accurate at all.

Why do you hate Irish?

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