Why do you hate Irish?

Sleepy · 12-01-2016 06:32PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

With Irish, they'll have expereinced it so they'll defintiely know whether they like it or not.

Everything else is choice. They won't know a lot of the time, but what else are you proposing? Make everything compuslry? Take all choice away from the student?

If you're arguring "how does the student know?" well - how do YOU know better than the student?

I'd argue that Irish should be replaced with a modern European language at primary level and made an optional subject available at Junior Cert level.

The Irish language is little more than a cultural curio that the founding fathers of our Republic happened to be interested in. It doesn't warrant the level of time wasted on it at present and not even a reformed curriculum which actually managed to teach students to speak the language would be. It's simply not as important to know as English or Maths. No other single subject is. Yes, we need to teach History, Geography, Science, a language etc. etc. in order to provide children with rounded educations but I don't believe Irish is a necessary part of that and have never heard a convincing argument that it is.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

@Sleepy, the study of Shakespeare takes over a massive amount of time in Secondary School. There is also the 19th Century English novel, as well as one or other of the Irish poets - from memory you usually have to study two in detail to be certain. How relevant are 19th century English novels, Elizabethan English, or early 20th century Irish poets to modern Irish people? Arguably no relevance at all, and especially not to the modern workplace. You are missing the point about education system being rounded and producing people with rounded interests both inside and outside the workplace. We don't need students who are solely produced for the workplace. They should have wide interests, in sport, music, the arts, history, culture and so on. If you want your kids to be robots only capable of working and little else, by all means move away from Ireland to avoid the dreaded "Irish".

I agree that the education system needs to be rounded. I disagree that Irish represents a valuable part of a rounded education. To me, it represents an opportunity cost, a wasted opportunity to teach something of worth.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Oh yes I mean its terrible for the people of Connemara not being forced to work in a language which is foreign to them (ie English).

You do realise there are native Irish speakers? Would you force them to work in English? The budget of TG4 is a pittance of the English language budget coming from the TV licence. In fact far more money is spent on buying US TV dramas, films, and so on. But hey better for RTE to spend money abroad than on local people, just so long as we aren't paying for Irish.

I grew up in Galway. There are miniscule numbers of native Irish speakers who can't better communicate in English and they're a dying breed. Irish simply doesn't have the vocabulary or the critical mass of speakers to maintain a vocabulary that keeps up with the modern world.

TG4 is an expensive sop to an interest group. RTE is no less wasteful but it does, at least, attract a reasonable audience. I'd be all for abolishing the TV Licence and letting RTE stand or fall on it's commercial merit. Whether they could manage that is an open question (and one for a different thread). If TG4 can do that, fair play to all involved but I think we all know that's a fantasy. It's not commercially viable and it never will be.

There's very little about the Irish language that is viable tbh.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 06:41PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By that logic every subject should be mandatory. There is no reason why Irish should be given a special place.

I feel we are stuck in a cycle here. There is no reason why Shakespeare, 19th Century English novels or early 20th century Irish poets should be given a special place and yet they are. There is no reason why most of maths is given a special place when its never going to be used by most people.

Sleepy · 12-01-2016 06:44PM

You're building a strawman Shurimgreat. Your argument that elements of the English and Maths curriculum's are of questionable benefit is not, and never will be, an argument for maintaining Irish as a mandatory subject at any level of education.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 06:46PM

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd argue that Irish should be replaced with a modern European language at primary level and made an optional subject available at Junior Cert level.

The Irish language is little more than a cultural curio that the founding fathers of our Republic happened to be interested in. It doesn't warrant the level of time wasted on it at present and not even a reformed curriculum which actually managed to teach students to speak the language would be. It's simply not as important to know as English or Maths. No other single subject is. Yes, we need to teach History, Geography, Science, a language etc. etc. in order to provide children with rounded educations but I don't believe Irish is a necessary part of that and have never heard a convincing argument that it is.

I agree that the education system needs to be rounded. I disagree that Irish represents a valuable part of a rounded education. To me, it represents an opportunity cost, a wasted opportunity to teach something of worth.

I grew up in Galway. There are miniscule numbers of native Irish speakers who can't better communicate in English and they're a dying breed. Irish simply doesn't have the vocabulary or the critical mass of speakers to maintain a vocabulary that keeps up with the modern world.

TG4 is an expensive sop to an interest group. RTE is no less wasteful but it does, at least, attract a reasonable audience. I'd be all for abolishing the TV Licence and letting RTE stand or fall on it's commercial merit. Whether they could manage that is an open question (and one for a different thread). If TG4 can do that, fair play to all involved but I think we all know that's a fantasy. It's not commercially viable and it never will be.

There's very little about the Irish language that is viable tbh.

What part of Irish culture would you see taught in our schools out of interest? Its fairly clear the teaching of modern European languages is an even bigger waste of time than teaching Irish. No-one I know is fluent in a modern European language. When they go on business to Europe, guess what language that business is carried out in? English.

Learning French, Spanish, Russian etc is pretty pointless other than if you are going on holidays there and from experience everyone there in the tourist industry speaks pretty good English.

There are tens of thousands who speak Irish fluently, so I think you are deliberately underplaying that. From experience I know of many who speak it on a daily basis.

You still haven't made a strong enough case for it to be dropped as a compulsory subject. Maybe you'd like to see Irish die out, thankfully a lot of us wouldn't.

catbear · 12-01-2016 06:56PM

I wouldn't discount spanish too quickly, almost all of south america and a lot of north america is a pretty big market.
A brother in law who's a chef in New york tells me even the italians kitchens are mostly spanish speaking now.

Iwasfrozen · 12-01-2016 07:20PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

What part of Irish culture would you see taught in our schools out of interest? Its fairly clear the teaching of modern European languages is an even bigger waste of time than teaching Irish. No-one I know is fluent in a modern European language. When they go on business to Europe, guess what language that business is carried out in? English.

Learning French, Spanish, Russian etc is pretty pointless other than if you are going on holidays there and from experience everyone there in the tourist industry speaks pretty good English.

There are tens of thousands who speak Irish fluently, so I think you are deliberately underplaying that. From experience I know of many who speak it on a daily basis.

You still haven't made a strong enough case for it to be dropped as a compulsory subject. Maybe you'd like to see Irish die out, thankfully a lot of us wouldn't.

So your response to Irish being a useless language to to try grossly downplay the importance of other languages?

Irish should be an optional subject. This won't kill the language despite your hyperbole.

Shep_Dog · 12-01-2016 07:45PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

What part of Irish culture would you see taught in our schools out of interest?

I'd suggest folklore, history,songs, music and a few polite phrases. The attempt to teach the whole language is unnecessary and is obviously part of the 'reinstate-as common-language-of Ireland' agenda, which is a hangover from the isolationist, ultra-nationalist politics of the past century.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 08:00PM

So force a modern European language on everyone in primary school so a very small minority will use it on a daily basis as adults. Talk about contradicting oneself!

I fell for the bullsh*t growing up that we'd all need a modern european language. Hell there was even talk of us needing to learn chinese because china would eventually rule the world. Guess what! You talk to people from these nations through work and they all speak English. Increasingly English is viewed as the must have language of international business and commerce. So essentially the majority of students learning French and similar are wasting their time. France is just one market in a very diverse world. Unless your main client is french ( rare), you plan to live in france (still rare but immersion is a bigger factor) or other rare factors learning french is on balance pointless. It should not be compulsory.

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 08:03PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I feel we are stuck in a cycle here. There is no reason why Shakespeare, 19th Century English novels or early 20th century Irish poets should be given a special place and yet they are. There is no reason why most of maths is given a special place when its never going to be used by most people.

I'd agree that Shakespeare, etc. are a bit useless but at the same time there is no question over its position as a mandatory subject and English can be used in future so it is practical.

Maths is the same in that its position as a mandatory subject can't be questioned, most of the growth in the economy requires math related degrees, its very useful for those who go into those areas (the number of people is increasing every year), Maths also helps to further develop critical and logical thinking which are very useful even if you don't ever use algebra or trigonometry, etc.

Irish on the other hand has no use other than for cultural purposes, it is useless for employment, it would be better off being an optional subject or a hobby. A good few (obviously not all, but majority) of the arguments for keeping Irish as a mandatory subject can also be used to justify making Gaelic Football or Hurling mandatory subjects, and those are absurd ideas, and that's how absurd people sound when they try say Irish must be kept as a mandatory subject; by all means have Irish as an optional subject, don't scrap it because it's nice to have (just like art or music) but don't force it down everybody's throats.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 08:08PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

Irish on the other hand has no use other than for cultural purposes, it is useless for employment, it would be better off being an optional subject or a hobby. A good few (obviously not all, but majority) of the arguments for keeping Irish as a mandatory subject can also be used to justify making Gaelic Football or Hurling mandatory subjects, and those are absurd ideas, and that's how absurd people sound when they try say Irish must be kept as a mandatory subject; by all means have Irish as an optional subject, don't scrap it because it's nice to have (just like art or music) but don't force it down everybody's throats.

Unless you want to be a primary teacher, a secondary teacher teaching irish, an irish lecturer in college, teach irish grinds, work in the gaeltacht as a teacher, want to work for tg4, or work in the Arts through Irish and many other jobs.

When was the last time you were asked about shakespeare in a job intereview. So when you think of it, a knowledge of irish leads to far more job opportunities than knowing shakespeare inside out.

There are thousands if not tens of thousands of jobs where a reasonable fluency in irish is nessecary.

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 08:22PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Unless you want to be a primary teacher, a secondary teacher teaching irish, an irish lecturer in college, teach irish grinds, work in the gaeltacht as a teacher, want to work for tg4, or work in the Arts through Irish and many other jobs.

When was the last time you were asked about shakespeare in a job intereview. So when you think of it, a knowledge of irish leads to far more job opportunities than knowing shakespeare inside out.

There are thousands if not tens of thousands of jobs where a reasonable fluency in irish is nessecary.

Other than in media like TG4, the only use of learning Irish is to teach it to others, that cycle could easily be cut out and not missed. You could work in French media or become a french teacher, so why does French not also warrant a place as a mandatory subject??? It doesn't and neither does Irish. The fact remains that Irish should only be an optional subject, there is no logical argument that can be made for it being mandatory.

I'm saying English is important, its important in most jobs to have good English. If you look at my post I made reference to Shakespeare not being useful, but there is so much of the subject that is useful. To compare the practicality of English to the practicality of Irish is ridiculous, and makes me question why I'm taking you seriously.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 08:28PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

Other than in media like TG4, the only use of learning Irish is to teach it to others, that cycle could easily be cut out and not missed. You could work in French media or become a french teacher, so why does French not also warrant a place as a mandatory subject??? It doesn't and neither does Irish. The fact remains that Irish should only be an optional subject, there is no logical argument that can be made for it being mandatory.

I'm saying English is important, its important in most jobs to have good English. If you look at my post I made reference to Shakespeare not being useful, but there is so much of the subject that is useful. To compare the practicality of English to the practicality of Irish is ridiculous, and makes me question why I'm taking you seriously.

If the language was optional it would still need to be taught. Some people actually like Irish and want to speak and learn it. Terrible I know. Maybe they should be locked up!

As others have said no-one has an issue with modern business English. Many from an older generation pre universal secondary education never learned shakespeare having left school early. They learned how to read and write and most got by and still get by fine.

You don't need Elizabethan English to be good at English. If anything it is an unnessecary distraction and probably should be dropped. Its 400 years old. Do you hear anyone now a days speak like MacBeth, or Romeo and Juliet?

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 08:37PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

If the language was optional it would still need to be taught. Some people actually like Irish and want to speak and learn it. Terrible I know. Maybe they should be locked up!

It would need to be taught, but so does French, Spanish, German and whatever other languages are offered but that doesn't mean they should be mandatory.

Or maybe they should choose to do it? because as I've outlined before it should still be offered as an optional language. Some people like Gaelic football/Hurling and want to learn how to play and compete, but does that warrant it a place on the curriculum???

I don't hate Irish, its nice to have, but I would equate it to Art and Music, nice to have but the thought of them being mandatory is ridiculous, all deserving of their place as a subject but none of them should be mandatory.

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 08:42PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

As others have said no-one has an issue with modern business English. Many from an older generation pre universal secondary education never learned shakespeare having left school early. They learned how to read and write and most got by and still get by fine.

You don't need Elizabethan English to be good at English. If anything it is an unnessecary distraction and probably should be dropped. Its 400 years old. Do you hear anyone now a days speak like MacBeth, or Romeo and Juliet?

Yes, and as I've said before, I AGREE, Shakespeare isn't useful, but so much of the subject is useful.

Even through I disagree with Shakespeare being taught, it does have practical applications because when a student writes an essay answer on Shakespeare they don't write it in Shakespearean language, sure they quote from the plays but when they're writing their answer they're using good modern English and it has to do them some good practising writing good English.

So can we move on from this because I've said I agree that Shakespeare is useless, I don't know why you're hanging onto the subject of Shakespeare.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 08:45PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

It would need to be taught, but so does French, Spanish, German and whatever other languages are offered but that doesn't mean they should be mandatory.

Or maybe they should choose to do it? because as I've outlined before it should still be offered as an optional language. Some people like Gaelic football/Hurling and want to learn how to play and compete, but does that warrant it a place on the curriculum???

I don't hate Irish, its nice to have, but I would equate it to Art and Music, nice to have but the thought of them being mandatory is ridiculous, all deserving of their place as a subject but none of them should be mandatory.

Gaelic football/hurling plays a massive part in primary extra curricular activities so not sure its a great comparison. Most national schools enter teams in cumman na mbunscoil competitions. The influence continues at secondary level. The gaa has significant influence in schools.

As stated there are a lot of jobs and careers dependent on irish. If you remove it as being compulsorary it reduces many students opportunities. They'd be a long way behind native speakers when it came to college or jobs. Not very fair that. On balance there are more than enough career opportunities to keep irish compulsory, certainly far more than Shakespeare.

Magico Gonzalez · 12-01-2016 08:48PM

All I read here from the side that wants to keep Irish compulsory is "Irish must be forced upon adolescents and young teenagers because they dont appreciate how culturally important it is"

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 08:54PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Gaelic football/hurling plays a massive part in primary extra curricular activities so not sure its a great comparison. Most national schools enter teams in cumman na mbunscoil competitions. The influence continues at secondary level. The gaa has significant influence in schools.

As stated there are a lot of jobs and careers dependent on irish. If you remove it as being compulsorary it reduces many students opportunities. They'd be a long way behind native speakers when it came to college or jobs. Not very fair that. On balance there are more than enough career opportunities to keep irish compulsory, certainly far more than Shakespeare.

But you can always opt out, you're never forced to partake, whereas you are forced to do Irish. Gaelic Football is a hobby but Irish is a mandatory subject despite both having the same credentials for being a mandatory subject, and, to be clear, neither of them should be.

It doesn't at all reduce the opportunities, the students who want to go into jobs that require Irish just choose it as their optional language, its not like I'm proposing Irish being banned from schools.

Yes while I would agree with that point, there is one problem with it, Shakespeare isn't a subject.... but English is actually a subject and its position as a mandatory subject is unquestionable. Irish position as a mandatory subject is laughable, it should be optional and no more than that.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 08:54PM

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

All I read here from the side that wants to keep Irish compulsory is "Irish must be forced upon adolescents and young teenagers because they dont appreciate how culturally important it is"

Wow well done for compresseing an entire thread into one sentence. There's cultural significance, thousands of job opportunities, the need for a rounded education including the teaching of things people don't like or even hate.

If we only had an education system involving subjects that people like it would be much the poorer. We should leave it to the experts to decide. Not have some x factor popularity contest.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 09:01PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

But you can always opt out, you're never forced to partake, whereas you are forced to do Irish. Gaelic Football is a hobby but Irish is a mandatory subject despite both having the same credentials for being a mandatory subject, and, to be clear, neither of them should be.

It doesn't at all reduce the opportunities, the students who want to go into jobs that require Irish just choose it as their optional language, its not like I'm proposing Irish being banned from schools.

Yes while I would agree with that point, there is one problem with it, Shakespeare isn't a subject.... but English is actually a subject and its position as a mandatory subject is unquestionable. Irish position as a mandatory subject is laughable, it should be optional and no more than that.

Shakespeare is not a subject but it is a hugely time consuming part of English. Its relevance to today is questionable. I believe it should not be compulsory as part of the leaving cert cycle. People should be allowed choose between shakespeare or more modern playwrights. In terms of irrelevance it is even more so than irish for reasons I outlined above. And the chances of you living among or working with people speaking Elizabethan English are zilch.

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 09:08PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Shakespeare is not a subject but it is a hugely time consuming part of English. Its relevance to today is questionable. I believe it should not be compulsory as part of the leaving cert cycle. People should be allowed choose between shakespeare or more modern playwrights. In terms of irrelevance it is even more so than irish for reasons I outlined above. And the chances of you living among or working with people speaking Elizabethan English are zilch.

And Irish is a hugely time consuming part of school, Shakespeare shouldn't be mandatory and neither should Irish.

Writing the essays about Shakespeare can be practical for practising writing good English, Irish isn't practical at all.

And I could also make the argument that Shakespeare (like all good literature) should be taught because it is culturally significant, but I won't because that isn't a good point to make and doesn't warrant it being mandatory, just like Irish. We can now agree than neither Irish nor Shakespeare should be mandatory.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 09:09PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

Yes, and as I've said before, I AGREE, Shakespeare isn't useful, but so much of the subject is useful.

Even through I disagree with Shakespeare being taught, it does have practical applications because when a student writes an essay answer on Shakespeare they don't write it in Shakespearean language, sure they quote from the plays but when they're writing their answer they're using good modern English and it has to do them some good practising writing good English.

So can we move on from this because I've said I agree that Shakespeare is useless, I don't know why you're hanging onto the subject of Shakespeare.

I will move on. The point I'm making is if you go through the curriculum you can see that actually most of it seems irrelevant on the face of it. Modern languages are massively over played. I or no-one I know speaks it day in day out while living here. You could replace Irish with another compulsory subject but which one. There's a chance it would be irrelevant to most people as people end up in vastly diverse careers. Irish is no better or worse or no more useful or not than most subjects. I know a lot of people who have only used basic maths and certainly not scientific equations since leaving school and also have never read a book and rarely read a newspaper. Most of education is irrelevant to most people. We still need to teach them though.

Shep_Dog · 12-01-2016 09:10PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

As stated there are a lot of jobs and careers dependent on irish. If you remove it as being compulsorary it reduces many students opportunities.

Can you describe these jobs and how they're funded?

Shep_Dog · 12-01-2016 09:12PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We should leave it to the experts to decide.

You mean self-serving interests in the Irish lobby?

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 09:16PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Can you describe these jobs and how they're funded?

They are funded in the same way English language jobs are funded in education, the media and the Arts. Good enough for you?

I guess you are against subsidising and funding all these in English now? If you were to be the least bit consistant you would be.

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 09:16PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I will move on. The point I'm making is if you go through the curriculum you can see that actually most of it seems irrelevant on the face of it. Modern languages are massively over played. I or no-one I know speaks it day in day out while living here. You could replace Irish with another compulsory subject but which one. There's a chance it would be irrelevant to most people as people end up in vastly diverse careers. Irish is no better or worse or no more useful or not than most subjects. I know a lot of people who have only used basic maths and certainly not scientific equations since leaving school and also have never read a book and rarely read a newspaper. Most of education is irrelevant to most people. We still need to teach them though.

We could not replace it at all and just give people another optional subject.

But Business subjects and Science subjects (maybe even Geography), despite not being useful to everyone after they leave, are definitely and unquestionably better candidates to be mandatory subjects than Irish. I'm not saying they should be (and Geography definitely shouldn't be but it merits mandatory status more than Irish does), I'm just saying it makes more sense than having Irish as a mandatory subject.

jobbridge4life · 12-01-2016 09:16PM

I used to hate Irish. I used to loathe it. I'd be filled with anxiety first then resentment every time a class would start. Thankfully I have latterly evolved in my opinion of the language. Nowadays I can see its importance and its dignity, at the time when I was learning it, the attitude of my teachers and others robbed me of that chance.

Reasons I think I hated Irish...
1. It is(was at least) taught in a woefully inadequate way.
2. Certain teachers, classmates and an element of society told me if I couldn't speak Irish or I found it difficult to learn that I was somehow less than. A truly proud Irish person needed to speak it and/or could learn it with relative ease. If you didn't fit in those categories you were a sort of 'less than' Irish person.
3. Its association with violent Republicanism and regressive Catholicism. (this has changed utterly during and particularly since my time in the class room)

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 09:23PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I used to hate Irish. I used to loathe it. I'd be filled with anxiety first then resentment every time a class would start. Thankfully I have latterly evolved in my opinion of the language. Nowadays I can see its importance and its dignity, at the time when I was learning it, the attitude of my teachers and others robbed me of that chance.

Reasons I think I hated Irish...
1. It is(was at least) taught in a woefully inadequate way.
2. Certain teachers, classmates and an element of society told me if I couldn't speak Irish or I found it difficult to learn that I was somehow less than. A truly proud Irish person needed to speak it and/or could learn it with relative ease. If you didn't fit in those categories you were a sort of 'less than' Irish person.
3. Its association with violent Republicanism and regressive Catholicism. (this has changed utterly during and particularly since my time in the class room)

And those are great reasons why it should be kept on as an optional subject.

It definitely shouldn't be mandatory, I honestly haven't seen one argument in this entire thread that even made me stop to consider whether it should be, the arguments have been terribly weak and sentiment based.

jobbridge4life · 12-01-2016 09:45PM

Brendan97 wrote: »

And those are great reasons why it should be kept on as an optional subject.

It definitely shouldn't be mandatory, I honestly haven't seen one argument in this entire thread that even made me stop to consider whether it should be, the arguments have been terribly weak and sentiment based.

At what level?

Personally I feel it should be compulsory until the completion of the Junior Cert.

Brendan97 · 12-01-2016 09:48PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

At what level?

Personally I feel it should be compulsory until the completion of the Junior Cert.

I wouldn't mind it being compulsory up to Junior Cert, but certainly not for Leaving Cert.

Iwasfrozen · 12-01-2016 09:54PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

At what level?

Personally I feel it should be compulsory until the completion of the Junior Cert.

I could accept that as a compromise.

Why do you hate Irish?

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