Why do you hate Irish?

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 01:17AM

Most of the English language has come from a hodge podge of other languages. In addition there are numerous words taken from other languages such as entrepreneur. Languages borrow from each other all the time. Irish is not unique in this.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2016 01:33AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Everyone will take something from the education system. 95% mightn't use Shakespeare again but 5% might if they go into the Arts or become an English teacher. The same for the poets. Also the modern languages. And Irish if someone goes on to become a primary teacher or other areas where Irish used.

Think there's a bit of confirmation bias there: you seem to think compuslory Irish is nessecary, so you have to make an arguement for compulsroy everything.

I'd argue that 5% is a not only a very poor result from an investment of 100%, but also that the figure is inflated and that the actual amount of course content on the leaving cert that is actually turned into practical useage, is a lot lower. Especially when you average it out per student.

Therefore, I'd argue that compulsory subjects are a negative aspect.

Its a good question but its unfair to single out Irish above other subjects. How relevant is the Elizabethan English used by Shakespeare for example. Or how relevant is Dickens? There is a move to introduce computer programming early now in schools so that's good.

True - as I've argued before.
- no subject should be conpulsory after Junior Cert
- a good course should have a mix of subjects that are lifeskill and interesting to the student.

At the moment, very little of the leaving cert compulsory modules fall into either category.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 02:15AM

Some people actually have varied interests in adulthood. They can work as an engineer but be interested in the arts or play music in their spare time. They can appreciate W B Yeats or Beethovan or be interested in Shakespeare. School should never ever ever be just about preparing people for the workplace alone. It should also encourage a wide variety of interests. Students are human beings not units of labour trained to serve capitalist masters.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2016 02:30AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Some people actually have varied interests in adulthood. They can work as an engineer but be interested in the arts or play music in their spare time. They can appreciate W B Yeats or Beethovan or be interested in Shakespeare. School should never ever ever be just about preparing people for the workplace alone. It should also encourage a wide variety of interests. Students are human beings not units of labour trained to serve capitalist masters.

In adulthood yes - but you can't force an interest on someone!

I agree about the content, but it;s not an interest when very few of the students are interested in it. Irish is a prime example of this: if people choose to learn it as adults (or kids for that matter) - let them.

If they don;t, don''t. THIS is where the discontent (or, at worst) hatred comes from.

catbear · 12-01-2016 02:33AM

I wonder how this thread would have went if it was titled "Why do you hate compulsory Irish?"

somefeen · 12-01-2016 02:53AM

I hated Irish when I was a child. I went to a gealscoil for primary and secondary and to me it was the language of school. I hated school so anything linked to that I hated just as much.
Luckily being forced to speak it meant I left school very fluent in it and I actually enjoy the language now though my fluency is lost due to under use.

For me the barrier to getting people to embrace the language is as much about how its taught as the people that do use it. There is a certain types gealtacht head that I just don't get along with. Two types actually

1. Mad religious, dancing at the crossroads, whole family sits around playing trad ****ers
2. Annoying atheist, hippy, surfer, guitar playing, hector wannabe ****ers

Despite loving the language and wanting to see it used more often I cant stand these crowds and you will find plenty of them where ever Irish is spoken.
And its a damn shame, understanding the language gives me a stronger connection to my culture and to the very landscape of Ireland.

To me its not about keeping something that's dying alive at all costs. When you understand Irish you understand how places got there names better, little out of the fecking way places and you can hazard a decent guess. You understand the odd way Irish people construct sentences ( "I'm after doing X" is a relic of our Geailge days)

Its like Ireland is a giant computer. Modern Irish, english speaking society is like the operating system (probably Windows Vista cos' y'know....) and Irish is like the BIOS. We just installed English onto Irish and it still has an influence.
Then under that there's the machine language which would be the equivalent of grunting and hand gestures

Shep_Dog · 12-01-2016 06:55AM

somefeen wrote: »

Its like Ireland is a giant computer. Modern Irish, english speaking society is like the operating system (probably Windows Vista cos' y'know....) and Irish is like the BIOS. We just installed English onto Irish and it still has an influence.
Then under that there's the machine language which would be the equivalent of grunting and hand gestures

Most of us are native English speakers and Irish is simply not in our BIOS. Irish is one of those annoying popups installed by a virus that gets in the way when we're trying to do things. In the background, it steals our money and gives it to TG4 and RnaG.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2016 10:22AM

catbear wrote: »

I wonder how this thread would have went if it was titled "Why do you hate compulsory Irish?"

Yeah I know, but that is one of the sticking points of the topic: people develop a dislike for it because they see it being of no practical use and yet it's still forced upon them.

The question is WHY it's still forced upon them when THIS is the direct outcome. When you ask the enthsuiasts this, they sidestep the issue by pointing towards English and Maths and not disscussing how the compulsory aspect may be harming the langugae rather than help it.

LordSutch · 12-01-2016 10:27AM

I hate to say this, but depressingly, things are not going to change!

There is nothing on the horizon to challenge the status quo, wherby Irish remains as our 1st language (as it has for eighty years), it will also remain compulsory for all school children, from junior infants right up to leaving students... while fewer and fewer adults 'in the real world' speak it :cool:

I like the BIOS/pop up analogy above in post 848, and if anything, that background noise is going to get stronger and stronger as we approach the centenary of the 1916 rising, and the lead up to the centenary of independence in 2021/22.

Irish is not going away you know.

PS: I say, make it optional after Inter Cert, make it non compulsory, protect it and cherish it, while recognising that its not really our 1st language (even though it needs to be retained).

thattequilagirl · 12-01-2016 10:48AM

deepesthole wrote: »

One of your "cons" boils down to "other things are useless but I like Irish so it's a special useless".

Nope, you misunderstood that point completely. My argument was that Irish, like art and music, is not a useless subject, and that subjects we learn in school have a value beyond potential future employment.

These are the subjects I took for Leaving Cert:

English
Irish
Maths
French
History
Geography
Home Ec

The only one of those that I use in my career is English. The rest just don't come into it.

But Irish is important to me in connecting with my culture, and became even moreso during the years I lived abroad. I use a very basic level of Maths (probably stuff I learned in fifth/sixth class) to get through day to day life. When I cook, I use the knowledge I gained in Home Ec. When I watch the news, the stuff I learned in History and Geography provides useful context for understanding what's happening in the world. French is probably the subject I use least - since I've never used it outside of school I've lost most of it, but I retain a good degree of Irish because I use it fairly regularly. I'd still like to be more fluent than I am though.

thattequilagirl · 12-01-2016 10:50AM

By the way, I do think kids should have the choice to drop it after Junior Cert. This decision should be made in conjunction with an overhaul of how it is taught.

Deise Vu · 12-01-2016 11:24AM

I don't hate Irish but, to echo at lot of other posters, I have a serious problem with how it was taught to me. Unfortunately for my future love of Irish I am from the Peig generation. I was also forced to read Mickey MCGabhanns Rotha Mór an TSaoil (?). If I hadn't picked up an English version of Mickeys book in a second hand book store I would have failed Leaving Cert Irish even though I was a good student and did very well overall.

Looking back, the main difficulty in those days was that Irish was taught as a maths subject not as a language. The teachers were obsessed with getting the grammar right. My nightmare is seeing my LC Irish teacher shouting 'Tuiseal Ginideach, baininscineach (?)". Instead of speaking you were stammering, trying to work out tables in your head to figure out should there be a 'g' in front of a 'c' or do I need to a couple more 'h's here.

The nadir for me was about a month before the LC Oral Exam when, after 13 years of doing essays, poetry, reading, vocab and grammar, our teacher decided maybe we should try conversing in the language. He started with something simple and asked me where I was from. Incredibly, after 13 years and at least 10 different teachers, it appears I had the wrong sex on my address for all that time. I remember sitting down after suffering the usual humiliating scorn and thinking: "I am fcuking screwed."

Even now, 35 years later, at times of severe stress I still have the 'doing the LC Irsh exam next week and I still can't make head nor tails of Peig' nightmare. It is the only time that I love waking up and I positively bound out of the bedsheets no matter what I have to face that day.

Paramite Pie · 12-01-2016 11:47AM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Most of us are native English speakers and Irish is simply not in our BIOS. Irish is one of those annoying popups installed by a virus that gets in the way when we're trying to do things. In the background, it steals our money and gives it to TG4 and RnaG.

I don't think you quite understood the post. We speak Hiberno-English, which compared to standard English is often grammatically 'incorrect'.

Without knowing any irish whatsoever, we often speak a dialect of English that uses "gaelic" grammar with English words without even realising it. The Irish language forms an invisible backbone to how English is spoken here.

recipio · 12-01-2016 12:10PM

deepesthole wrote: »

Does anybody really "hate" Irish? The only thing most people hate about it is that it's forced on everybody when it's totally useless to them.

I don't hate it - it would be stupid to hate a language but I probably hate the fascist CB who tried to teach it to me.
Irish is a propaganda tool of the Nationalist set who still run this country.
Any liberal or egalitarian Republic would never have introduced compulsory teaching but of course DeValera lacked both of these qualities.

Paramite Pie · 12-01-2016 12:13PM

Dughorm wrote: »

The reason I ask is because some of the vocabulary for newer Irish words doesn't appear to me like it is used in everyday life for example, "oigheann micreathonnach" comes to mind - how would your friends say "I put the ready-meal in the microwave"?

That said, I don't think it's a massive issue for the language - it's malleable.

Can that be shortened to micreathonnach? Only 4 syllables then compared to the 3 in microwave.

"I put the ready-meal in the microwave"

"Cuirim an béile réamhullmhaithe sa oigheann micreathonnach" -- seems way to long to me -- 16 syllables compared to 12 in English. * caution - not a fluent speaker!!* Cut out 'oigheann' and it's only marginally longer.

Maybe literal translations of English terms shouldn't be used, perhaps another adjective like 'prepared' or 'instant'??

*checks online dictionary*

Béile ar an toirt is 'instant meal' which is still a mouthful. Oh dear..:pac:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2016 12:20PM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

"I put the ready-meal in the microwave"

I'll name that tune in four - "I'm nuking it"

Sleepy · 12-01-2016 12:33PM

Dughorm wrote: »

The fact that you would go out of your way to keep your children away from the language would be one indicator....

Yes: an indicator that I consider the study of Irish to be a waste of time and want more for my kids education than to see it wasted. Not an illogical thought pattern at all but obviously you're incapable of applying logic to your beloved irish.

So does History, Geography, Business, Home Economics and many other subjects - there is nothing in English Literature that specifically develops professional "oral and written communication skills".

Leaving Cert English has 50% of it's marks based on the comprehension of a previously unseen piece of text and the composition of an essay. The other half is based on the study of the literature, poetry etc.

Every great writer that I've ever seen asked how to become a better writer has given the same answer: read a lot. By setting prescribed texts and poems students are given the chance to experience different ways that the English language can be used. I'd argue that Shakespeare (as the origin of so much of the modern English language) has a place in that course, though would certainly agree that certain parts of the curriculum could be improved upon. But to state that it doesn't develop communication skills more than other subjects?

That's just wrong.

The key factor here is that you happen to like English as a subject. I studied subjects I had no interest in and did well in them because I didn't have an attitude to them.

Well done but your attempt to insinuate I don't like Irish because I didn't do well in it doesn't wash. I did fine in it, better than I was aiming for in all honesty. My Junior Cert was all A's and B's at higher level and you can be sure I didn't have a massive interest in everything I studied. I think you might be thinking of your own love for Irish and applying your thought processes to me here tbh...

In which case we should all study Business because anyone needs to be able to read their ESB bill and might start a business some day... No, I think cultural reasons and the core elements of a liberal education are better criteria.

If you can't read your ESB bill, studying Business wouldn't help you much tbh. It's ordinary level junior certificate English and maths. Neither Business, Accounting or Economics are a pre-requisite for studying Commerce at 3rd level so your argument falls flat I'm afraid.

And since when has Irish ever formed "a core element of a liberal education"? :rolleyes:

I don't think your suggestion that "if something is worthy of study, there'll be no shortage of people studying it" is remotely realistic and I think you know this. Given the points race people do not choose subjects like Classics, Ancient Latin, Greek, Applied Maths etc.. because they are perceived as difficult even though they are very worthy of study.

Actually Applied Maths was very popular when I was growing up, it was considered to be an easy A if you were already studying Honours Maths and Physics?

Classics, Latin and Greek are all studied pretty extensively on a global scale so, no, there's no shortage of people studying them.

Your argument also flies in the face of the bonus points given for HL maths. Why is there a shortage if it is "something... worthy of study"? Despite the incentive, more do HL Irish than HL Maths - what does that say using your logic? Is HL Irish more worthy of study?

The bonus points for Higher Level Maths are a reflection of the additional effort required by what most would agree is the most challenging subject on the Leaving Certificate curriculum. It had been observed that many students who were perfectly capable of Honours Level were dropping to Ordinary Level in order to have more time to devote to studying easier subjects in order to get higher points. This was a problem as Higher Level Mathematics is essential for many of the third level courses which offer students the best career possibilities (i.e. STEM).

Dughorm wrote: »

Surely children will be more likely to be motivated to learn whatever is presented to them in a fun and attractive manner?

By suggesting to children that Irish is not a "real living language" all you are teaching them is prejudice.

Suggesting? Prejudice? LOL. Irish isn't a "real living language" any more than Klingon or Dothraki are.

There might be a couple of hundred native speakers left, all of whom can communicate perfectly adequately in English.

It doesn't matter how "fun" you try to make Irish, even if you somehow managed to get every student in the country an A1 in Higher Level Leaving Certificate irish, it still wouldn't be a living language any more than if you had every student doing the same in Latin.

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Why does everybody call Irish a dead language? Have they not educated themselves on the numbers who speak it daily and weekly outside of the education system?

Because it doesn't have the critical mass of speakers necessary to allow it to evolve the vocabulary for the modern world.

Because the numbers speaking it are tiny and can't be trusted any more than the census numbers for religion.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Given that your far more likely to converse face to face with a living irish speaker...yes they do exist although you probably haven't bothered leaving your castle to meet one...than a russian, the answer is no, it makes no sense to learn russian.

I genuinely meet more fluent Russian speakers than living Irish speakers. Maybe it's a factor of living in Dublin rather than Spiddal but even there in the heart of the Gaeltacht I notice that half the words used in conversation between Irish speakers are English or the English word with an "ie" added to it - the language is dead, it hasn't been widely enough spoken to allow it to evolve the vocabulary of the world for decades (centuries?).

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Nope, you misunderstood that point completely. My argument was that Irish, like art and music, is not a useless subject, and that subjects we learn in school have a value beyond potential future employment.

That's a fair point, subjects do have a value beyond potential future study or employment. But while that argument can be made for any subject under the sun, it's not a valid argument for that subject to be mandatory.

But Irish is important to me in connecting with my culture

So you'd have studied it whether it was mandatory or not. That's not a valid reason to force it on the rest of us.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2016 01:18PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Yes: an indicator that I consider the study of Irish to be a waste of time and want more for my kids education than to see it wasted. Not an illogical thought pattern at all but obviously you're incapable of applying logic to your beloved irish.

In firness, if you argue in favour of student choice, you have to least give them the experiences on which to base that choice.

This is the same thing in the opposite direction: you're practically making it compulsory for them NOT to study Irish. What YOU see and what YOU want for your kids could well be different from what THEY want for themselves.

You state something similar here later in your post in a repsonce to Tequila Girl.

That's a fair point, subjects do have a value beyond potential future study or employment. But while that argument can be made for any subject under the sun, it's not a valid argument for that subject to be mandatory.

Of all the people who have put forward resosn for hating Irish, I don't think anyone's stated parental dislike of the lanaguge.

Dughorm · 12-01-2016 01:48PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The question is WHY it's still forced upon them when THIS is the direct outcome. When you ask the enthsuiasts this, they sidestep the issue by pointing towards English and Maths and not disscussing how the compulsory aspect may be harming the langugae rather than help it.

I think that we can't lose sight here that most of the resentment is crystalised when the subject is mandatory at leaving cert - the damage is well done by the time the student is 15 - they've been non-learning Irish for near 10 years at this stage and now they've an important exam and Irish feels like a millstone and all that resentment is understandable.

So rather than mandatory Irish being the cause of the resentment it is actually an effect of the resentment and feelings of inadequacy created by terrible teaching and a poor primary/junior cert syllabus.

Dughorm · 12-01-2016 01:59PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Irish is one of those annoying popups installed by a virus that gets in the way when we're trying to do things. In the background, it steals our money and gives it to TG4 and RnaG.

Any examples of how Irish gets in the way when you're trying to do things?

Sleepy · 12-01-2016 02:00PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In firness, if you argue in favour of student choice, you have to least give them the experiences on which to base that choice.

This is the same thing in the opposite direction: you're practically making it compulsory for them NOT to study Irish. What YOU see and what YOU want for your kids could well be different from what THEY want for themselves.

You state something similar here later in your post in a repsonce to Tequila Girl.

Of all the people who have put forward resosn for hating Irish, I don't think anyone's stated parental dislike of the lanaguge.

And what experience had any of us of French, German, Technical Graphics, Woodwork, etc. when choosing our subjects for Junior Cert? Most likely none, and certainly no classroom experience.

If my kids choose to study Irish, I'll be disappointed in they lack of sense but would encourage them to do their best in it and wouldn't forbid them from choosing it. Unfortunately, there's some who believe they have the right to make that choice for me and my children on the sole basis of their own interest in the language.

Dughorm wrote: »

I think that we can't lose sight here that most of the resentment is crystalised when the subject is mandatory at leaving cert - the damage is well done by the time the student is 15 - they've been non-learning Irish for near 10 years at this stage and now they've an important exam and Irish feels like a millstone and all that resentment is understandable.

So rather than mandatory Irish being the cause of the resentment it is actually an effect of the resentment and feelings of inadequacy created by terrible teaching and a poor primary/junior cert syllabus.

Honestly? I can remember not liking Irish lessons in Senior Infants.

I'd be fairly certain I had better spoken Irish in 6th class than I did by 3rd year though.

thattequilagirl · 12-01-2016 02:03PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I think that we can't lose sight here that most of the resentment is crystalised when the subject is mandatory at leaving cert - the damage is well done by the time the student is 15 - they've been non-learning Irish for near 10 years at this stage and now they've an important exam and Irish feels like a millstone and all that resentment is understandable.

So rather than mandatory Irish being the cause of the resentment it is actually an effect of the resentment and feelings of inadequacy created by terrible teaching and a poor primary/junior cert syllabus.

So, it seems like your major problem is that after so many years of learning it, kids don't have a real grasp of it.

Would reforming the way the language is taught to make it more accessible not be a better solution than axing it from the curriculum?

The thing is, I probably wouldn't have chosen to study Irish at 15, but I'm glad I did now.

Dughorm · 12-01-2016 02:22PM

Sleepy wrote: »

And what experience had any of us of French, German, Technical Graphics, Woodwork, etc. when choosing our subjects for Junior Cert? Most likely none, and certainly no classroom experience.

Don't 1st year pupils have a taster of each subject for a term for these optional subjects? Perhaps it varies from school to school.

Sleepy wrote: »

If my kids choose to study Irish, I'll be disappointed in they lack of sense but would encourage them to do their best in it and wouldn't forbid them from choosing it. Unfortunately, there's some who believe they have the right to make that choice for me and my children on the sole basis of their own interest in the language.

Honestly? I can remember not liking Irish lessons in Senior Infants.

I'm delighted you're moderating your position here somewhat - even though you would still be disappointed (

:() in your children at least you wouldn't be imposing your own impressions on them.

(impressions you formed in Senior Infants? - you were hardly in a position to have a mature or informed viewpoint on the subject at that age*?)

*unless you were one of these wonder-children who do Oxford degrees at age 12!

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd be fairly certain I had better spoken Irish in 6th class than I did by 3rd year though.

This is very true. That's how much damage the junior cert syllabus does - it is shameful there is no JC Oral exam and says a lot about the teaching imho.

Sleepy · 12-01-2016 02:46PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Would reforming the way the language is taught to make it more accessible not be a better solution than axing it from the curriculum?

No one is suggesting axing it, just removing it's undeserved status as a core, mandatory subject. And yes, I'm sure reforming the way the language is taught would be a good thing for the poor kids that choose to study it (or whose parents force them to).

Dughorm wrote: »

Don't 1st year pupils have a taster of each subject for a term for these optional subjects? Perhaps it varies from school to school.

We never had that, but it's a couple of decades since I started secondary school. A good idea though.

I'm delighted you're moderating your position here somewhat - even though you would still be disappointed (:() in your children at least you wouldn't be imposing your own impressions on them.

I'd call it more an opinion than an impression. It's my opinion Irish is a worthless subject of study unless you want to pursue a job that has an artificial requirement for it (teaching, gardaí etc.) or want to be a parasite working for TG4 or some other arm of government in an unnecessary translation position etc.

Other's disagree with that opinion and that's their prerogative. However, the problem is that the status quo only respects one of those opinions and forces it on those of a different view.

(impressions you formed in Senior Infants? - you were hardly in a position to have a mature or informed viewpoint on the subject at that age*?)

My opinions on the teaching of the subject were formed as a teenager being forced to study it and, unlike those arguing for the retention of the compulsory status of Irish, stand up to logical examination.

My dislike of the subject pre-dates those opinions, I just mentioned it as a btw.

Iwasfrozen · 12-01-2016 03:06PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Nope, you misunderstood that point completely. My argument was that Irish, like art and music, is not a useless subject, and that subjects we learn in school have a value beyond potential future employment.

These are the subjects I took for Leaving Cert:
English

Irish

Maths

French

History

Geography

Home Ec

The only one of those that I use in my career is English. The rest just don't come into it.

But Irish is important to me in connecting with my culture, and became even moreso during the years I lived abroad. I use a very basic level of Maths (probably stuff I learned in fifth/sixth class) to get through day to day life. When I cook, I use the knowledge I gained in Home Ec. When I watch the news, the stuff I learned in History and Geography provides useful context for understanding what's happening in the world. French is probably the subject I use least - since I've never used it outside of school I've lost most of it, but I retain a good degree of Irish because I use it fairly regularly. I'd still like to be more fluent than I am though.

OK. Are you against Irish being made optional in secondary school?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2016 03:31PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I think that we can't lose sight here that most of the resentment is crystalised when the subject is mandatory at leaving cert - the damage is well done by the time the student is 15 - they've been non-learning Irish for near 10 years at this stage and now they've an important exam and Irish feels like a millstone and all that resentment is understandable.

So rather than mandatory Irish being the cause of the resentment it is actually an effect of the resentment and feelings of inadequacy created by terrible teaching and a poor primary/junior cert syllabus.

Very true, but if that's the effect, then the cause neesd to be treated.

After **** knows how many decades of refusal to turn it in an interesting language, I don;t have any faith in it happenign soon.

Announce that it's going to be made optional for secondary school in three years time, and watch how fast they move. They unfortunately need this kick up the arse, or they'll just sit around playing with themselves.

Sleepy wrote: »

And what experience had any of us of French, German, Technical Graphics, Woodwork, etc. when choosing our subjects for Junior Cert? Most likely none, and certainly no classroom experience.

If my kids choose to study Irish, I'll be disappointed in they lack of sense but would encourage them to do their best in it and wouldn't forbid them from choosing it. Unfortunately, there's some who believe they have the right to make that choice for me and my children on the sole basis of their own interest in the language.

.

With Irish, they'll have expereinced it so they'll defintiely know whether they like it or not.

Everything else is choice. They won't know a lot of the time, but what else are you proposing? Make everything compuslry? Take all choice away from the student?

If you're arguring "how does the student know?" well - how do YOU know better than the student?

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Would reforming the way the language is taught to make it more accessible not be a better solution than axing it from the curriculum?

The thing is, I probably wouldn't have chosen to study Irish at 15, but I'm glad I did now.

Who's talking about "axing" it? See point above - they've had decades to reform it and they're still nowhere nearer to make it an interesting language.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 05:00PM

@Sleepy, the study of Shakespeare takes over a massive amount of time in Secondary School. There is also the 19th Century English novel, as well as one or other of the Irish poets - from memory you usually have to study two in detail to be certain. How relevant are 19th century English novels, Elizabethan English, or early 20th century Irish poets to modern Irish people? Arguably no relevance at all, and especially not to the modern workplace. You are missing the point about education system being rounded and producing people with rounded interests both inside and outside the workplace. We don't need students who are solely produced for the workplace. They should have wide interests, in sport, music, the arts, history, culture and so on. If you want your kids to be robots only capable of working and little else, by all means move away from Ireland to avoid the dreaded "Irish".

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 05:10PM

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd call it more an opinion than an impression. It's my opinion Irish is a worthless subject of study unless you want to pursue a job that has an artificial requirement for it (teaching, gardaí etc.) or want to be a parasite working for TG4 or some other arm of government in an unnecessary translation position etc.

Oh yes I mean its terrible for the people of Connemara not being forced to work in a language which is foreign to them (ie English).

You do realise there are native Irish speakers? Would you force them to work in English? The budget of TG4 is a pittance of the English language budget coming from the TV licence. In fact far more money is spent on buying US TV dramas, films, and so on. But hey better for RTE to spend money abroad than on local people, just so long as we aren't paying for Irish.

Shurimgreat · 12-01-2016 06:00PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So, it seems like your major problem is that after so many years of learning it, kids don't have a real grasp of it.

Would reforming the way the language is taught to make it more accessible not be a better solution than axing it from the curriculum?

The thing is, I probably wouldn't have chosen to study Irish at 15, but I'm glad I did now.

I'd feel the same way. I'm glad my education was rounded and I was exposed in school to subjects which at the time didn't seem relevant, seemed a waste of time and so on, but culturally are important when you think about it. Our education system is pretty good and strikes a balance between culturally significant subjects and subjects necessary for future careers. Clearly some people have a hatred of Irish, had a bad experience of it and think it worse than torture. Luckily they are not in charge of designing the curriculum, otherwise they'd only include "sexy" subjects. A lot of people find their roots and ancestry and their native language interesting. Education should be about catering to as many interests as possible.

Iwasfrozen · 12-01-2016 06:22PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'd feel the same way. I'm glad my education was rounded and I was exposed in school to subjects which at the time didn't seem relevant, seemed a waste of time and so on, but culturally are important when you think about it. Our education system is pretty good and strikes a balance between culturally significant subjects and subjects necessary for future careers. Clearly some people have a hatred of Irish, had a bad experience of it and think it worse than torture. Luckily they are not in charge of designing the curriculum, otherwise they'd only include "sexy" subjects. A lot of people find their roots and ancestry and their native language interesting. Education should be about catering to as many interests as possible.

By that logic every subject should be mandatory. There is no reason why Irish should be given a special place.

Why do you hate Irish?

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