Sledging and the underage game...

Blackclaret · 11-01-2016 10:17am #1

Interested to hear peoples views on the sledging of players in the underage game. How common is it and what the appropriate rulings are. Particularly in relation to the line out thrower and place kicker. It's a nasty enough development in adult games but feel singling out a minor for such attentions needs to be officaly sanctioned as effects could easily extend beyond the playing fields.

The Lost Sheep · 11-01-2016 10:35am

Ive seen it from all angles - player, coach, referee, spectator.
It isn't that common to be honest. If comments are out of order. Find out person and talk to them.
If they are unreasonable ask them to stop. If they don't/refuse contact their club committee/president/youth officer and make a complaint if the comments warrant such action

Zzippy · 11-01-2016 10:54am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Ive seen it from all angles - player, coach, referee, spectator.
It isn't that common to be honest. If comments are out of order. Find out person and talk to them.
If they are unreasonable ask them to stop. If they don't/refuse contact their club committee/president/youth officer and make a complaint if the comments warrant such action

If it's happening it needs to be stamped out early. Is there backup for referees if they report it? Is it taken seriously? Are perpetrators disciplined?
Last thing I'd want to see is sledging like was alleged in underage intercounty GAA matches last year, that was disgusting.

Blackclaret · 11-01-2016 10:55am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Ive seen it from all angles - player, coach, referee, spectator.
It isn't that common to be honest. If comments are out of order. Find out person and talk to them.
If they are unreasonable ask them to stop. If they don't/refuse contact their club committee/president/youth officer and make a complaint if the comments warrant such action

Am sure its pretty uncommon at underage, what worries me is that all the lads in all the teams are in touch with each other on line and the chances of the player being targeted again are that much more likely, its not so much the content but the manner in which it was delivered and fact is had the desired effect. Of course there are ways of sorting it out in the tight but surely the rule book ought to be the first reference.

hurleronditch · 11-01-2016 10:59am

Blackclaret wrote: »

Interested to hear peoples views on the sledging of players in the underage game. How common is it and what the appropriate rulings are. Particularly in relation to the line out thrower and place kicker. It's a nasty enough development in adult games but feel singling out a minor for such attentions needs to be officaly sanctioned as effects could easily extend beyond the playing fields.

Don't know how common it is but vocally putting off a kicker is against the rules of the game. You can't shout when charging a conversion and Ive seen refs giving a general penalty for a player shouting just as a kicker was kicking a penalty at J2 level (same refs at underage). That being said however, nothing to really stop that same player having a nasty word in the kickers ear before the ball is set and everyone has gone back 10 etc

The Lost Sheep · 11-01-2016 11:04am

Zzippy wrote: »

If it's happening it needs to be stamped out early. Is there backup for referees if they report it? Is it taken seriously? Are perpetrators disciplined?
Last thing I'd want to see is sledging like was alleged in underage intercounty GAA matches last year, that was disgusting.

Yes we have a section in match report we fill out for any game we're appointed to where we can note that it occurred and the provincial branches then have a record and can see if there is any club/club team/school where incidents are not one offs. Perpetrators are disciplined and verbal abuse is most certainly taken seriously.

Blackclaret wrote: »

Am sure its pretty uncommon at underage, what worries me is that all the lads in all the teams are in touch with each other on line and the chances of the player being targeted again are that much more likely, its not so much the content but the manner in which it was delivered and fact is had the desired effect. Of course there are ways of sorting it out in the tight but surely the rule book ought to be the first reference.

Just look at the schools threads and FB/Twitter and the rest on the schools competitions. Thankfully youths/clubs rugby has nothing of the intense media coverage(but it could be better at same time) so social media behaviour isn't as much an issue.
Again if looking to rule book. If an incident occurs. Talk to referee and get them to include in their match report. If you feel its necessary ask your club to contact the opposing club and if necessary complain to your provincial youths committee/branch

sydthebeat · 11-01-2016 11:47am

is the OP talking about sledging from the sidelines, or from the opposing players??

theres a big difference in how both should be dealt with.

salmocab · 11-01-2016 11:53am

sydthebeat wrote: »

is the OP talking about sledging from the sidelines, or from the opposing players??

theres a big difference in how both should be dealt with.

Yeah I went to watch my nephew play a couple of months back as he was playing against my club u18s and the carry on of his teams supporters was appalling I eventually told one of them to shut up. It all seemed to stem from their coach who was abusing his own players and the ref verbally, he was from the SH so I suspect a lot of the parents don't know about rugby and assumed he knew his stuff.

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 11:59am

Zzippy wrote: »

If it's happening it needs to be stamped out early. Is there backup for referees if they report it? Is it taken seriously? Are perpetrators disciplined?
Last thing I'd want to see is sledging like was alleged in underage intercounty GAA matches last year, that was disgusting.

Thankfully rare (in the under-age games I do anyway).

I've found when it happens, clubs are quick enough to jump on it. Even if they don't a quick word in the ear of the relevant coach or club officer I've found works wonders - it lets them know you are aware of it and what you'll do if they don't sort it out immediately.

sydthebeat · 11-01-2016 12:01pm

salmocab wrote: »

It all seemed to stem from their coach who was abusing his own players and the ref verbally.

Well theres the problem right there.

as bad as supporters can be at abusing refs, coaches should definitely know better to shut their mouths if the dont agree with decisions.
It rubs off coaches onto players on the pitch then and the coach has lost a route to discipline his players of hes abusing refs himself

but i agree with previous posters that its quite rare in underage games, in my experience anyway.

Blackclaret · 11-01-2016 12:22pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

is the OP talking about sledging from the sidelines, or from the opposing players??

theres a big difference in how both should be dealt with.

I don't want to go into too much detail as its minors involved and in a contact sport establishing boundaries is a difficult enough
thing to get across, what was most striking was the player did not seem to be aware that what he was doing wrong.

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 12:27pm

Blackclaret wrote: »

I don't want to go into too much detail as its minors involved and in a contact sport establishing boundaries is a difficult enough
thing to get across, what was most striking was the player did not seem to be aware that what he was doing wrong.

I think younger players, engaged in a number of sports, sometimes forget or don't realise that what is tolerated in those other sports is not tolerated in rugby and vice versa.

sydthebeat · 11-01-2016 12:38pm

Blackclaret wrote: »

I don't want to go into too much detail as its minors involved and in a contact sport establishing boundaries is a difficult enough
thing to get across, what was most striking was the player did not seem to be aware that what he was doing wrong.

so it was one particular player.

obviously the first port of call is to bring it to the attention of the coach to deal directly with the player.

as for 'official sanctions', a misconduct complaint can be made against the player through official lines, for investigation. i wouldn't expect any sanction though, unless it was an on going issue.

also, you dont say if its minis or youths....

jacothelad · 11-01-2016 12:54pm

Blackclaret wrote: »

I don't want to go into too much detail as its minors involved and in a contact sport establishing boundaries is a difficult enough
thing to get across, what was most striking was the player did not seem to be aware that what he was doing wrong.

The referee should have warned him and his captain as soon as it started. The laws are quite clear on unsporting behaviour and the referee has pretty much carte blanche in these circumstances. sanctions are penalty, then card if repeated.

I've just recalled a bit of 'sledging' from my past. Sometime in the 1970s we were playing against Graystones ( I think). As the first scrum went down our well known and pretty 'brutal' hooker said - Cleaned up for family viewing - "You may have heard of me, I'm "££$%... ^&*." To which the ref replied, " Yes, you're that baldy f7cker, now shut up and get on with the game." The scrum collapsed in laughter and it took about 5 minutes to get started again. Our hooker hardly spoke for the rest of the game - which is unusual for hookers in my experience.

A "This is not soccer" moment.

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 1:12pm

jacothelad wrote: »

The referee should have warned him and his captain as soon as it started. The laws are quite clear on unsporting behaviour and the referee has pretty much carte blanche in these circumstances. sanctions are penalty, then card if repeated.

I've just recalled a bit of 'sledging' from my past. Sometime in the 1970s we were playing against Graystones ( I think). As the first scrum went down our well known and pretty 'brutal' hooker said - Cleaned up for family viewing - "You may have heard of me, I'm "££$%... ^&*." To which the ref replied, " Yes, you're that baldy f7cker, now shut up and get on with the game." The scrum collapsed in laughter and it took about 5 minutes to get started again. Our hooker hardly spoke for the rest of the game - which is unusual for hookers in my experience.

A "This is not soccer" moment.

Depending on the age, talking to the captain might not be productive as if they're not mature enough they won't understand their role.

......and while we're sharing anecdotes.....a few seasons ago I was reffing an U-17s game. Cracking early season fast match. A few minutes before half-time the home team's full-back absolutely smashes an attacking player who'd bolted through. Honestly, the tackle was like something from a training video. He put him down, sprung to his feet and was trying to wrestle the ball from the now prone player who refused to yield......and got pinged for his stubbornness.

With the game stopped, the player was getting to his feet and as he handed the ball to the FB, the FB tussled his hair and said "Thanks, mate" with a stupid grin on his face - so I immediately reversed the penalty, which was duly slotted.

A few minutes later I blew for half-time at which point the coaches came on with the FB's coach marching towards me. I half expected him to have some words but he just marched past and shouted at the FB "I hope you learned your lesson, you f^ckin' muppet!!"

salmocab · 11-01-2016 2:00pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Well theres the problem right there.

as bad as supporters can be at abusing refs, coaches should definitely know better to shut their mouths if the dont agree with decisions.
It rubs off coaches onto players on the pitch then and the coach has lost a route to discipline his players of hes abusing refs himself

but i agree with previous posters that its quite rare in underage games, in my experience anyway.

I would think quite rare alright and your right the coach was the problem but there were people at the game that should have known better not least my brother and several other people that have played and coached.

Yeah_Right · 11-01-2016 2:36pm

I have to admit that I love a bit of sledging but smart sledging. Racist, sexist, homophobic stuff is lazy and stupid. Also it definitely should not be coming from from the coach. Or the sideline in general. Amongst players in their late teens or older it's fine.

Something clever said to an opposing player that puts him off his game or makes him lose his cool is part of the game.

I like the ref penalising the guy for tousling the other players hair. I always hated seeing players doing that. That head is meant to be sacred in rugby.

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 2:39pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I have to admit that I love a bit of sledging but smart sledging. Racist, sexist, homophobic stuff is lazy and stupid. Also it definitely should not be coming from from the coach. Or the sideline in general. Amongst players in their late teens or older it's fine.

Something clever said to an opposing player that puts him off his game or makes him lose his cool is part of the game.

I like the ref penalising the guy for tousling the other players hair. I always hated seeing players doing that. That head is meant to be sacred in rugby.

No it's not.

Yeah_Right · 11-01-2016 2:59pm

Jawgap wrote: »

No it's not.

Seriously?

I think a bit of trash talk/sledging between players is good. You then have to back it up though because otherwise it can come back to bite you.

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 3:08pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Seriously?

I think a bit of trash talk/sledging between players is good. You then have to back it up though because otherwise it can come back to bite you.

No, because it's designed to be provocative and if it's one thing I hate as a ref it's having to ping someone when they retaliate while the instigator gets away because their initial provocation, be it physical or verbal, was missed.

Banter is one thing - something that's genuinely funny and self-deprecating can diffuse a situation or ease tension in a game, but something intended to make another player the butt of a joke (sledging / trash talking) may well be funny, but it's not clever, imo.

Zzippy · 11-01-2016 3:13pm

I was talking to a ref last year, he refs junior and women's games a lot. He penalised a prop in a women's game once for sexual harassment. At a lineout she pointed directly at the 9 from the other team (a wee slip of a thing apparently) and said "You're mine in the showers afterwards". :eek:

Blackclaret · 11-01-2016 3:24pm

Banter or ball hoping is one thing , but standing a few feet away from a fifteen year old shouting at him as he tries to throw the ball is something else, this was a tactical ploy, and it worked, but was most unsporting and if my own lad ddid it he'd be getting a serious talking to way home.

Yeah_Right · 11-01-2016 3:26pm

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one lads. I even think that shower comment is funny.

I played an u19 game (many years ago) and a couple of our forwards nicknamed the opposition hooker Simba the Lion King because he had a ginger Afro and scraggly beard. Lots of comments and jokes at scrum time and line outs about the Lion King. A couple of us would sing that "in the jungle the mighty jungle" song each time he threw in to a line out. He got angrier and angrier as the game went on. Made more mistakes and eventually threw a punch. Red card, game over, thanks very much.

Tim Robbins · 11-01-2016 3:29pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one lads. I even think that shower comment is funny.

I played an u19 game (many years ago) and a couple of our forwards nicknamed the opposition hooker Simba the Lion King because he had a ginger Afro and scraggly beard. Lots of comments and jokes at scrum time and line outs about the Lion King. A couple of us would sing that "in the jungle the mighty jungle" song each time he threw in to a line out. He got angrier and angrier as the game went on. Made more mistakes and eventually threw a punch. Red card, game over, thanks very much.

Ref should usually be able to deal with this. If it is a player, it would be: Warning, Penalty, YC, RD for player depending on offense.

If a fan is a head reck, just politely tell them to leave the playing area and if there are still issues -> match is off.

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 3:32pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one lads. I even think that shower comment is funny.

I played an u19 game (many years ago) and a couple of our forwards nicknamed the opposition hooker Simba the Lion King because he had a ginger Afro and scraggly beard. Lots of comments and jokes at scrum time and line outs about the Lion King. A couple of us would sing that "in the jungle the mighty jungle" song each time he threw in to a line out. He got angrier and angrier as the game went on. Made more mistakes and eventually threw a punch. Red card, game over, thanks very much.

Well my view there is that the ref should've intervened much earlier and saved himself the hassle of a red card.

A quick penalty early doors would've nipped it all in the bud, bud

The Lost Sheep · 11-01-2016 3:39pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

is the OP talking about sledging from the sidelines, or from the opposing players??

theres a big difference in how both should be dealt with.

Yep. Very big difference between abuse/sledging inside and outside the fence.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Well theres the problem right there.

as bad as supporters can be at abusing refs, coaches should definitely know better to shut their mouths if the dont agree with decisions.
It rubs off coaches onto players on the pitch then and the coach has lost a route to discipline his players of hes abusing refs himself

but i agree with previous posters that its quite rare in underage games, in my experience anyway.

Coaches should know better especially as they can be penalised and sanctioned for poor behaviour

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I have to admit that I love a bit of sledging but smart sledging. Racist, sexist, homophobic stuff is lazy and stupid. Also it definitely should not be coming from from the coach. Or the sideline in general. Amongst players in their late teens or older it's fine.

Something clever said to an opposing player that puts him off his game or makes him lose his cool is part of the game.

I like the ref penalising the guy for tousling the other players hair. I always hated seeing players doing that. That head is meant to be sacred in rugby.

It depends on what is said and context. I was very prone to it when playing and allow some "chat" when refereeing but it all will vary on context of game/opponents etc on what is/may be allowed

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ref should usually be able to deal with this. If it is a player, it would be: Warning, Penalty, YC, RD for player depending on offense.

If a fan is a head reck, just politely tell them to leave the playing area and if there are still issues -> match is off.

Fans should never be in the playing area in the first place though sometimes it cant be helped if there is no fence/wire/rope to separate technical zones(if any) and where supporters are

razorblunt · 11-01-2016 3:41pm

Never had any hassle with back and forth from teams, the refs would often step in if lines were crossed, but generally it was inoffensive wind up stuff.
I agree fully with penalising for patronising pats on the head.

There was also a ref who was a stickler for silence on conversions. A warning followed by a penalty from the restart usually sorted this out.
My team's coaches were quite hefty for the punishment if you gave away anything silly like that.

We also played one of the rugby schools in Cork one time to give their Senior Cup team a warm up before their games got competitive. One of the coaches of their B/C team was reffing and it was so one sided it was hilarious. Players losing their cool and giving up yards, few of the families of our players were laughing and questioning everything too. He warned our "fans" that anymore noise from the sidelines and he'd penalise our team on the pitch.
That was a long game.

Yeah_Right · 11-01-2016 3:49pm

When you say silence for the conversions, do you mean the opposing team or are you talking about people on the sidelines?

Yeah_Right · 11-01-2016 3:53pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Well my view there is that the ref should've intervened much earlier and saved himself the hassle of a red card.

A quick penalty early doors would've nipped it all in the bud, bud

What could the ref have penalised us for in that situation though? It was never abusive and no foul language was used.

salmocab · 11-01-2016 3:55pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What could the ref have penalised us for in that situation though? It was never abusive and no foul language was used.

Seen plenty of people pinged for unsporting behavior not sure of the exact rule but id imagine its fairly catch all

The Lost Sheep · 11-01-2016 3:58pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What could the ref have penalised us for in that situation though? It was never abusive and no foul language was used.

Law 10.4 which covers dangerous play/misconduct and part m which is Acts contrary to good sportsmanship would cover it. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 4:02pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What could the ref have penalised us for in that situation though? It was never abusive and no foul language was used.

It's potentially unsporting (Law 10).

"Acts contrary to good sportsmanship: A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure."

Neil3030 · 11-01-2016 4:25pm

Jawgap wrote: »

"Acts contrary to good sportsmanship: A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure."

So should Leinster/Ireland players be penalised any time they pass the ball to Mike Ross? :pac:

razorblunt · 11-01-2016 4:25pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

When you say silence for the conversions, do you mean the opposing team or are you talking about people on the sidelines?

That was just for the players on the charge down attempt or just general noise if there was few heated discussions under the post.
No complaints either way.

Yeah_Right · 11-01-2016 8:08pm

razorblunt wrote: »

That was just for the players on the charge down attempt or just general noise if there was few heated discussions under the post.
No complaints either way.

Fair enough whistling players who are attempting to charge the conversion. I thought maybe the ref was expecting everyone at the ground to be silent.

Ok I accept that the anecdote I told could have been penalised under the sportsmanship law. It would have been ridiculous if the ref had done it though. I mean if a player loses his rag because the opposition are taking the piss out of his hairstyle then he has some issues.

A question for those saying that trash talking/sledging should be penalised; should Gregan have been penalised for his "4 more years" taunt against the ABs? What about Fitzy calling Kearns "Lightening" in one of his first tests due to his line out throwing? Should those have been penalised?

Jawgap · 11-01-2016 8:13pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Fair enough whistling players who are attempting to charge the conversion. I thought maybe the ref was expecting everyone at the ground to be silent.

Ok I accept that the anecdote I told could have been penalised under the sportsmanship law. It would have been ridiculous if the ref had done it though. I mean if a player loses his rag because the opposition are taking the piss out of his hairstyle then he has some issues.

A question for those saying that trash talking/sledging should be penalised; should Gregan have been penalised for his "4 more years" taunt against the ABs? What about Fitzy calling Kearns "Lightening" in one of his first tests due to his line out throwing? Should those have been penalised?

Context and tone are important and if the ref in any given situation thinks it's unsporting then it's unsporting.

Losty Dublin · 11-01-2016 10:17pm

Jawgap wrote: »

A few minutes later I blew for half-time at which point the coaches came on with the FB's coach marching towards me. I half expected him to have some words but he just marched past and shouted at the FB "I hope you learned your lesson, you f^ckin' muppet!!"

And that, my friend, is an excellent coach

Losty Dublin · 11-01-2016 10:27pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Ok I accept that the anecdote I told could have been penalised under the sportsmanship law. It would have been ridiculous if the ref had done it though. I mean if a player loses his rag because the opposition are taking the piss out of his hairstyle then he has some issues.

Those sort of antics shouldn't be done by any player. If a team considers it a fair tactic, well it says a lot about your confidence in your ability and skill as a whole.

Yeah_Right · 12-01-2016 12:53am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Those sort of antics shouldn't be done by any player. If a team considers it a fair tactic, well it says a lot about your confidence in your ability and skill as a whole.

Trust me, there was nothing wrong with the team's skill or ability and if anything we may have had too much confidence. We just viewed the sledging as part of the game and we could back up the trash talking with results. (Translation: we were arrogant ****s but we won).

I guess I believe it has a place in the game (amongst adults). I asked earlier should Gregan and Fitzy have been penalised for the sledges in test matches? I'm sure there's examples of Irish players sledging. Should they have been penalised?

jacothelad · 12-01-2016 10:05am

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What could the ref have penalised us for in that situation though? It was never abusive and no foul language was used.

Singing out of tune for a start......

Neil3030 · 12-01-2016 11:49am

jacothelad wrote: »

Singing out of tune for a start......

We really need to stop letting the Welsh add laws, it gives them such an unfair advantage. I'd get rid of the singing out of tune law, and the law about correctly pronouncing, "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch"

Sledging and the underage game...

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