Why do you hate Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-01-2016 01:03PM

osarusan wrote: »

Where did I say I want to continue that?

You didn't, but your repsonces seem to be in favour of keeping it optional in order to ensure at least a few people speaking it (something I'm not even sure would be effected) - perhaps I misunderstood and you're in favour of optional Irish? In which case, apologies.

cornholiooo · 08-01-2016 01:04PM

I live in the gaeltacht and travel around it extensively through work. I dont speak Irish, I remember a few words from school thats it.
From what I see /hear < 5% of the people here are fluent Irish speakers. In Ireland as a whole id say
<1% speak fluent Irish.
It is what it is, slowly dying.
From my experience being fluent in Irish is generally the boast of an individual without much else going for them, but thats human nature.
I dont hate Irish, I think national school children should be givin another choice from Irish, french , german etc..m

osarusan · 08-01-2016 01:11PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You didn't, but your repsonces seem to be in favour of keeping it optional in order to ensure at least a few people speaking it (something I'm not even sure would be effected) - perhaps I misunderstood?

'keeping it optional' - do you mean 'keeping it mandatory'?

You did misunderstand - what I am saying is that I completely disagree with the 'make it optional to help it survive' argument.

I don't think making it optional will help it survive at all - I believe the number of students choosing the option would be much lower than people imagine. Yes, keeping it mandatory will result in more people speaking it to a very low level of proficiency - if I were an advocate of the Irish language, that would be my position.

But I think the issue of optional versus mandatory isn't really the issue. And even though it is really badly taught, and knowingly so, that really isn't the issue either.

Most people have absolutely no use for Irish in their lives. They get by without knowing it just as they do without knowing Swahili. The real issue, in my opinion, is a lack of a need for Irish and consequently a desire for learning the language.

Unless that can be rectified (and i don't really believe it can) then the language will never flourish, and will only survive through artificial support.

Paramite Pie · 08-01-2016 01:21PM

cornholiooo wrote: »

I live in the gaeltacht and travel around it extensively through work. I dont speak Irish, I remember a few words from school thats it.
From what I see /hear < 5% of the people here are fluent Irish speakers. In Ireland as a whole id say
<1% speak fluent Irish.
It is what it is, slowly dying.
From my experience being fluent in Irish is generally the boast of an individual without much else going for them, but thats human nature.
I dont hate Irish, I think national school children should be givin another choice from Irish, french , german etc..m

Yes, perhaps this should be decided at school level -- then parents have a choice.
However, if those Gaeltacht areas want to keep their status as such, then their national/secondary schools should continue to teach Irish. And I hope parents would try to encourage it among their kids.

Sleepy · 08-01-2016 03:29PM

If Galetacht schools want to teach through Irish, great, but the bonus points for sitting exams in it have to end.

Encourage it amongst my kids?! I actually pondered moving my kids abroad for a couple of years in order to help them avoid it!

LordSutch · 08-01-2016 03:53PM

osarusan wrote: »

I don't think making it optional will help it survive at all - I believe the number of students choosing the option would be much lower than people imagine. Yes, keeping it mandatory will result in more people speaking it to a very low level of proficiency - if I were an advocate of the Irish language, that would be my position.

But I think the issue of optional versus mandatory isn't really the issue. And even though it is really badly taught, and knowingly so, that really isn't the issue either.

I have always argued that it's the compulsory teaching of Irish that's killing it slowly.....specially post Inter Cert.

In another forum, from another year, and another discussion, I suggested that one way of maintaing the language would be to scrap it as a mandatory subject post Inter Cert "while simultaneously giving extra points" for those language students who choose Irish over another language! That way you stop the nay sayers and those who just don't want to do Irish, while boosting interest in the language (by those who wish to do it), not not just for the extra points, but because they want to learn Irish as a form of communication!

Sleepy · 08-01-2016 04:44PM

Bonus points are a farce for anything other than higher-level maths, and only work there as it's a more involved, harder subject than most others on the LC Curriculum.

Getting an A1 in Irish is a commendable achievement but it doesn't make one any more deserving of a college place than someone who got an A1 in any other subject.

Shurimgreat · 08-01-2016 04:55PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So, in your opinion, people who don't speak Irish are irresponsible? That's an idiotic opinion. It's a free country and unless you're a schoolchild, you don't have to speak Irish and have no obligation or responsibility to do so.

The buck-passing is when Irish enthusiasts try to make others responsible (and pay) for the support of their fantasy world.

I didn't say people who don't speak Irish are irresponsible so not sure where you got that from.

I said people are prepared to blame everyone and anyone for their hatred of Irish or the fact they haven't mastered it. It's within everyone's ability to become fluent in it, if they so choose. I'm not advocating forcing anyone to learn Irish as an adult.

People are still using the Peig Sayers excuse to this day as a reason why they still hate Irish. Its a bit of a Red Herring in my view. There is more to Irish than Peig Sayers, a lot more. There are thousands of books as Gaeilge and lots of TV programs and a radio station, and native speakers and so on. So let's leave poor Peig Sayers alone, she suffered enough while living, without being the butt of everyone's hatred while dead!

Shurimgreat · 08-01-2016 05:04PM

For me the Irish thing is more a question of culture than of learning a "useful" language.

In this regard, I think its right we should maintain some of our culture and identity, rather than becoming just an adjunct to Britain. We are a fairly unique country and our gaelic past and traditions are part of that uniqueness.

How many people here learned German, French or Spanish in secondary school because they were assured it would be useful in the future? And how many actually used it during their work or career? Very few I'd say. So dropping Irish to learn a modern language isn't always the answer.

I'd rather be fluent in Irish than fluent in French at this stage, particularly since I only ever visit France on holidays.

Lollipops23 · 08-01-2016 05:09PM

I despised my teacher in secondary school. Mean and bitter old man- had no lust for his job and he took it out on us.

I've rediscovered a soft spot for it in recent years.

Shep_Dog · 08-01-2016 07:30PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

.In this regard, I think its right we should maintain some of our culture and identity,

Shouldn't we allow people choose how much, how little and which traditions they'd like to have in their lives?

FarmersMarket · 08-01-2016 08:03PM

I hated it because it was compulsory and poorly taught. Much better if it was an optional subject in secondary school complimented by Irish culture and mythology. It would instill and interest in the language, history and culture. Also as it would be optional people wouldn't resent it.

Hotei · 08-01-2016 08:04PM

Sleepy wrote: »

If Galetacht schools want to teach through Irish, great, but the bonus points for sitting exams in it have to end.

Encourage it amongst my kids?! I actually pondered moving my kids abroad for a couple of years in order to help them avoid it!

That sounds like BS! I'd say you pondered moving for other reasons, and not because your kids were being taught Irish.

Dughorm · 08-01-2016 08:13PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Shouldn't we allow people choose how much, how little and which traditions they'd like to have in their lives?

Everyone has their own identity, taste and preferences.

People do choose how much or little of traditions they have in their lives.

However, I don't think the State should encourage children to bypass their country's culture or a proper education by turning it into "pix-n-mix"!

Some people consider "culture" one lot of ingrained prejudices, I don't, but it's ironic actually, quotes like these show how parents pass on their own prejudices to their children. Perhaps this anti-Irish prejudice will become part of our culture in a few generations!

Sleepy wrote:

Encourage it amongst my kids?! I actually pondered moving my kids abroad for a couple of years in order to help them avoid it!

Dughorm · 08-01-2016 08:14PM

Hotei wrote: »

That sounds like BS! I'd say you pondered moving for other reasons, and not because your kids were being taught Irish.

I wouldn't think so - I would say the poster is being sincere given his/her irrational attitude to the language displayed in the previous post.

Shep_Dog · 08-01-2016 08:26PM

Dughorm wrote: »

However, I don't think the State should encourage children to bypass their country's culture or a proper education by turning it into "pix-n-mix"!

Current Irish-language education is by no means 'proper'. Thare must be better ways to teach English-speaking children about the Irish-speaking community and its traditions. Time spent on Irish langage lessons is grossly disproportionate to the needs of most English-speaking children.

The cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right. Or, are you suggesting that the state should appoint teachers, many of whom are members of the radical CnaG group, as Cultural Commissars to ensure that children are 'culturally correct'? Perhaps they send parents for cultural re-education if they don't follow the official cultural line?

gormdubhgorm · 08-01-2016 08:27PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Please go back and read the question I asked and answer it in context it was asked if you're going to enter into the debate.

A fair point you made your highness. The funny thing is I think if Irish was banned suddenly there would be outrage and more would want to speak it. You have a point on Irish being compulsory. But I think it is more then that there are people in the six counties who strongly view Irish as part of their culture as it has been oppressed in the past. I think the other 26 counties of the Island do not feel the same need to assert their Irish identity/language as the 6 counties.

LordSutch · 08-01-2016 08:37PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think the other 26 counties of the Island do not feel the same need to assert their Irish identity/language as the 6 counties.

And yet we (as a country) don't speak Irish, this even though its a compulsory subject for all school children in the State, from Junior infants right up to Leaving Cert students!

Eight decades (of compulsory Irish) and counting . . . . . . .

Yet most of us only have a few words or sentences (cupla focal).

Dughorm · 08-01-2016 08:38PM

Sleepy wrote: »

You're rather making the argument for the removal of the compulsory status for me here. It wasn't my choice that my time was wasted.

I don't agree with your logic here. But it's ironic that using that same logic your post becomes an argument for retaining compulsory Irish! By having that "wasted" time you developed those tetris skills to build your career.... Imagine how good your tetris skills would have been had you taken the same attitude to your English class the Department of Education subjected you to!

Sleepy wrote: »

I've yet to have a single moment where Irish could have been of use to my career -

If that is your criteria for education then we can never agree! I have never used trigonometry, French or Shakespeare in mine and yet I'm glad I studied them!

Sleepy wrote: »

Had Irish not been compulsory, that time wouldn't have been "wasted" as I would have been spending those 5 classes a week studying a worthwhile subject (or even a different non-useful subject that I had an interest in e.g. Latin, Classics etc)

I could pick dozens of more useful or worthwhile subjects to form part of that core..

Your "global" definition of useful is wrong - it might not be useful to you - any historian would find studying Latin or Classics very useful as an example. Just because something fits a random criteria for usefulness is not a good reason for a subject to be a core subject in my opinion.

Sleepy wrote: »

I think you're stretching the definition of the word "used" tbh. That implies utility. Irish has none, ergo, imo, it's best described as a hobby or a past-time.

That it's an official language of the State (and that we've foisted it upon our EU partners as one) is, lamentably imo, undeniable. That such a designation was a political decision rather than a reflection of the reality of our society, however is also undeniable.

As you say these are your opinions, I have others already expressed, that's why we have a constitution and democracy!

Dughorm · 08-01-2016 08:47PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Current Irish-language education is by no means 'proper'. Thare must be better ways to teach English-speaking children about the Irish-speaking community and its traditions. Time spent on Irish langage lessons is grossly disproportionate to the needs of most English-speaking children.

If the syllabus/teaching improved perhaps people would grow in fluency and not require as much time on Irish langauge classes - a win win!

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right. Or, are you suggesting that the state should appoint teachers, many of whom are members of the radical CnaG group, as Cultural Commissars to ensure that children are 'culturally correct'? Perhaps they send parents for cultural re-education if they don't follow the official cultural line?

The constitution recognises the ethos choices of parents in the school system of patronage we (should) have, that's why there's a mixture of school types by language, religion etc....

Thankfully there is some cop on at play also - if a creationist wanted their child removed from science classes because "the cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right" - would you support that?

LordSutch · 08-01-2016 08:52PM

Dughorm wrote: »

If the syllabus/teaching improved perhaps people would grow in fluency and not require as much time on Irish langauge classes - a win win!

Yeah, but they've been trying this for eight decades :cool:

Every ten years or so there's a new initiative, but nothing much changes.

Dughorm · 08-01-2016 08:56PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Yeah, but they've been trying this for eight decades :cool:

Every ten years or so there's a new inititive, but nothing much ever changes.

I'm not sure how long Peig was on the leaving cert syllabus but clearly it wasn't changed half fast enough given the reaction on here!

I'd like to know what impact the higher points for Oral Irish at leaving cert has had - is it 5 or so years now?

Imagine what a mandatory oral Irish exam at junior cert would achieve?

El Burro Juicioso · 08-01-2016 08:56PM

So having read through a few of these pages, something strikes me as really odd. It's not the compulsory part really. If Irish is one of our national languages, fine the children should be educated in it. The methodology obviously needs to improve. It's no coincidence that those in Gaelscoil's speak Irish fluently.

However, I can't understand how it is even remotely possible, or even fair, that students are given extra points for taking the LC in Irish. does nobody else see that as fundamentally unfair? Anyone who went to a Gaelscoil is getting additional points by dint of having an unfair advantage. Those who didn't? "Tough sh!t"..

And yes, it is to promote the language but I thought equality was more important, and not favourtism? How many people who take the test in Irish are encouraged to speak more Irish? What about people who didn't go to Gaelscoils or grow up in Irish-speaking families and are disadvantaged in that sense.. ie the majority have become disadvantaged? What about those who could take tests in any other number of languages? Do they not deserve extra points? What about those who aren't very good at languages, but at let's say science... tough testicles for them too?

The whole thing is crazy.. I learned Spanish without taking any Spanish classes, just listening and speaking and reading in 10 months by being exposed to it. 14 years and people can't even speak it? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a strong knowledge of Irish, but I don't.. and I really don't think it is because I can't learn another language..

Dughorm · 08-01-2016 08:59PM

El Burro Juicioso wrote: »

So having read through a few of these pages, something strikes me as really odd. It's not the compulsory part really. If Irish is one of our national languages, fine the children should be educated in it. The methodology obviously needs to improve. It's no coincidence that those in Gaelscoil's speak Irish fluently.

However, I can't understand how it is even remotely possible, or even fair, that students are given extra points for taking the LC in Irish. does nobody else see that as fundamentally unfair? Anyone who went to a Gaelscoil is getting additional points by dint of having an unfair advantage. Those who didn't? "Tough sh!t"..

And yes, it is to promote the language but I thought equality was more important, and not favourtism? How many people who take the test in Irish are encouraged to speak more Irish? What about people who didn't go to Gaelscoils or grow up in Irish-speaking families and are disadvantaged in that sense.. ie the majority have become disadvantaged? What about those who could take tests in any other number of languages? Do they not deserve extra points? What about those who aren't very good at languages, but at let's say science... tough testicles for them too?

The whole thing is crazy.. I learned Spanish without taking any Spanish classes, just listening and speaking and reading in 10 months by being exposed to it. 14 years and people can't even speak it? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a strong knowledge of Irish, but I don't.. and I really don't think it is because I can't learn another language..

I'd agree with everything you said there. All common sense.

The bonus marks for Irish are positive discrimination. We see positive discrimination in lots of areas e.g. the quota for female TD candidates.

A lot of female TDs didn't agree with the introduction of quotas and probably a lot of Irish speakers don't agree with the bonus marks either.

mossleycnoc · 08-01-2016 09:01PM

The main reason I detest gaeilge (I refuse to say Irish language because for most of us- certainly anyone outside the west, the main language has been Hiberno-English since well before the famine) is down to gaeilgeor language fascists. This species is of the mistaken belief (1) knowledge of the language is a sign of superior intelligence (2) that they have a divine right to look down on the rest of us who couldn't give a fiddlers for their 'native tongue', (3) that they alone are patriotic- and anyone else is a crypto-west Brit (4) that throwing millions in subsidies towards areas that still speak the language for speaking the language is enlightened or justifiable and (5) that the recent increase in number of Gaelscoils is because parents actually want their kids to be proficient in the language and not a cheap way of getting a private-lite schooling without poor kids in the class!

El Burro Juicioso · 08-01-2016 09:10PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I'd agree with everything you said there. All common sense.

The bonus marks for Irish are positive discrimination. We see positive discrimination in lots of areas e.g. the quota for female TD candidates.

A lot of female TDs didn't agree with the introduction of quotas and probably a lot of Irish speakers don't agree with the bonus marks either.

Honestly, I would love if the whole nation, or majority, were bilingual. But how can one blame people for being resentful towards Irish when time and again it just knocks them down... Not good at your glance card in primary - you're a dummy. Have to do pass in secondary? So stupid. God forbid you do foundation and (at least how it was explained to me when I was choosing uni) you are excluded from level 8s.

Talk about setting everyone up to hold a grudge against a perceived elitist minority... The worst thing is I don't even think Gaelgoirís are even sanctimonious, just that they are on the other side of the coin. Really, the problem is an outdated education system.

riclad · 08-01-2016 09:41PM

It,s Total bs ,that someone gets to be a doctor or nurse cos they got extra points for irish,
it should be extra points for academic degrees,
no extra points for technical or medical degree,s .
eg doctor, architect, programming IT.
I agree with quota,s for tds, cos we need more female politicians ,50 per cent approx, of the population is female .

Shurimgreat · 08-01-2016 10:04PM

I don't think the problem is with education. By the time kids go into national school, I think is it first class when Irish begins to be taught, its already a "foreign" language to them. It would be better if their parents introduced a cupla focal in the early years to get them familiar with Irish and comfortable speaking it even. I think Irish has become too much associated with the classroom and like most things associated with the classroom, students can't wait to see the back of it. We need to remove some of the negative stereotypes around Irish, that its the language of Peig Sayers, etc. It possibly might make sense to remove Irish as a Leaving Cert exam subject, but it still should be taught up to Leaving Cert. I'd hate to think we'd just abandon Irish and become another homogeneous European state.

Shep_Dog · 08-01-2016 10:06PM

Dughorm wrote: »

If the syllabus/teaching improved perhaps people would grow in fluency and not require as much time on Irish langauge classes - a win win!

Perhaps people don't wish to be speak Irish? You constantly refuse to accept the possibility that people might not want to speak Irish and to assume an absolute right to force it on people.

Given that most people choose to retain just a few polite phrases of Irish in later life, 14 years of compulsory lessons is grossly unnecessary.

Dughorm wrote: »

Thankfully there is some cop on at play also - if a creationist wanted their child removed from science classes because "the cultural formation of the children is primarily the parent's right" - would you support that?

Irish is not a science subject. It's a language and the version taught in schools is not even authentic. People should have the right to decide what langauges they adopt.

We do allow parents to withdraw children from religion classes, but not Irish classes.

Shurimgreat · 08-01-2016 10:15PM

It is absolutely right to "force" some subjects on people. Its right to force Maths, English, History and one or two other subjects on people. Its possibly right to force Irish on people too. Its part of our identity and culture and if you want to live here, have an Irish passport and so on, you should at least make an effort to integrate with the culture and traditions.

Imagine someone coming from abroad, not speaking a word of English and you don't force them to learn the language or integrate.

It would actually not be a good thing to see Irish die out. Its what sets us apart. Its possible we might see a major revival in the future and possibly at some stage become the dominant language again with English the second language. In any case it doesn't really matter what language we converse in.

Why do you hate Irish?

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