Atheism and the Afterlife

The Bishop Basher · 04-01-2016 7:17pm #1

Are they compatible ?

I checked the search function and looks like there hasn't been a thread on this for over a year. Apologies if that's not the case...

Anyway, reason i ask is, the other thread and discussion of NDE's got me thinking to my own personal struggle with these topics and how I reasoned some things out at the time and now.

I identified as atheist for about 6 years. At that time I knew I had a soul or at least there was a part of me that was not physical and it was the thing that made me "me". I had no requirement for a God in order to believe that.

I also didn't believe that the soul could die. After all it's only energy and "energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form"

So i reasoned quite happily that the energy would live on. I had no concept of how that happened but it wasn't a heaven or a hell as christianity would teach.

I'm interested to know people's thoughts on this.

Are they compatible ?

And the obvious lead on question, Can we prove or disprove the existence of an afterlife....

robdonn wrote: »

Hmmmm, I've heard a lot about Eben Alexander and his supposed experiences. He's been shown to alter his accounts of events in a lot of situations, including falsifying evidence in his surgeries.

But most importantly, his personal accounts are simply just that, personal accounts. It can't really be counted as reliable evidence.

As for the other links, I'll check out the study that they're referencing on Science Direct.

The Quora has tons of links for some light reading...

I completely agree that one personal account is proof of nothing but when you look at the growing numbers of NDE's, many with similar experiences, many with memory of the events we simply cannot explain and with so many high profile cases now documented, surely we have to take them seriously as part of an overall body evidence.

smokingman · 04-01-2016 7:22pm

I once had a conversation with Jim Morrison which was quite real.....for me.

The mind is a funny thing but utterly untrustworthy.

The Bishop Basher · 04-01-2016 7:31pm

Sure but it's also incredibly predictable and reliable at times. Otherwise we may as well just write off all experience as a trick of the mind.

But in relation to NDE's I would agree that the mind is certainly capable of creating those experiences. As yet though, scientists remain baffled as to how it's possible while the subject is clinically dead.

Some research is pointing towards brain stem function as a possibility and I look forward to seeing the results of further investigation on that.

Shrap · 04-01-2016 9:26pm

Swanner wrote: »

I identified as atheist for about 6 years. At that time I knew I had a soul or at least there was a part of me that was not physical and it was the thing that made me "me". I had no requirement for a God in order to believe that.

I also didn't believe that the soul could die. After all it's only energy and "energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form"

NED = Extragalactic database?? What's that then?!

Whatever about that though....why do you know you have a soul, or rather, HOW do you know you have a soul? I don't see any existence of a soul, personally. I would think it was a matter of faith to think I had one, considering the lack of evidence. I'm sure there are others just like you who think that you can be atheist and spiritual, but I only met that with people who couldn't grasp the nettle after leaving a religion, ie. Had trouble with the notion that this is it. All there is. Most likely.

TheChizler · 04-01-2016 9:39pm

All soul energy and physical energy have in common is the spelling. Be careful about making false logical proofs.

Shrap · 04-01-2016 9:57pm

TheChizler wrote: »

All soul energy and physical energy have in common is the spelling. Be careful about making false logical proofs.

Is there a soul energy?! What does it do? I'd genuinely like to know what other atheists think about "soul"....starting with what is it?

TheChizler · 04-01-2016 10:00pm

Shrap wrote: »

Is there a soul energy?! What does it do? I'd genuinely like to know what other atheists think about "soul"....starting with what is it?

I think it's what kept James Brown going for so long.

robdonn · 04-01-2016 10:18pm

TheChizler wrote: »

I think it's what kept James Brown going for so long.

I thought that was spirits?

MrPudding · 04-01-2016 10:18pm

OP, what are your views on homeopathy and reiki?

MrP

The Bishop Basher · 04-01-2016 10:19pm

Shrap wrote: »

NED = Extragalactic database?? What's that then?!

My bad..

Shrap wrote: »

Whatever about that though....why do you know you have a soul, or rather, HOW do you know you have a soul? I don't see any existence of a soul, personally. I would think it was a matter of faith to think I had one, considering the lack of evidence.

No one can prove I have any intuition but i know I do because I experience it regularly as do many many others.

I probably should have avoided the term soul as it has such religious connotations but I have experienced, and tuned into during meditation, an inner essence or calm that extends further then the physical body.

Shrap wrote: »

I'm sure there are others just like you who think that you can be atheist and spiritual, but I only met that with people who couldn't grasp the nettle after leaving a religion, ie. Had trouble with the notion that this is it. All there is. Most likely.

Correct me if i'm wrong but atheism is the lack of belief in a God. What i've described doesn't require a belief in a God. So why couldn't i have been atheist and held this belief ?

And I was most definitely atheist. My views were as hard line as anyone here and I was very comfortable with that position for a long time. Many of the positions held by posters here are familiar to me

But i'm not here to defend my theism or lack of i'm just here to discuss the topic..

The Bishop Basher · 04-01-2016 10:22pm

MrPudding wrote: »

OP, what are your views on homeopathy and reiki?

MrP

I have no real views on either tbh.

I don't count them or discount them.

If people get benefit from them then who am i to judge ?

PopePalpatine · 04-01-2016 10:23pm

Swanner, I'm guessing that your spellchecker is automatically turning "NDE" into "NED"?

Shrap · 04-01-2016 10:26pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Swanner, I'm guessing that your spellchecker is automatically turning "NDE" into "NED"?

Oooh! Ok, ta ;-)

The Bishop Basher · 04-01-2016 10:29pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Swanner, I'm guessing that your spellchecker is automatically turning "NDE" into "NED"?

Thanks. I'll go back and fix them.

And apologies Shrap. Thanks for pointing it out. I thought you knew what I meant so didn't explain...

Shrap · 04-01-2016 10:34pm

Swanner wrote: »

My bad..

No one can prove I have any intuition but i know I do because I experience it regularly as do many many others.

I probably should have avoided the term soul as it has such religious connotations but I have experienced, and tuned into during meditation, an inner essence or calm that extends further then the physical body.

Correct me if i'm wrong but atheism is the lack of belief in a God. What i've described doesn't require a belief in a God. So why couldn't i have been atheist and held this belief ?

I'm not asking you to defend atheism/theism or whatever. I have a genuine question which is that how do you believe in a spiritual thing like a soul or something that extends beyond the physical body without a belief in a supernatural something outside of yourself? And I'm not calling your belief in that as a belief in god, but what the hell is it then?

Really, genuine question! I have this discussion a lot with people who just say "grand, there's no god, can't see one" and then inadequately (for me) describe the existence of some spiritual thing outside of themselves - the "soul".

I don't get it. Nor do I experience it.

feargale · 04-01-2016 10:45pm

You're all bound for Limbo.

The Bishop Basher · 04-01-2016 10:45pm

Shrap wrote: »

I'm not asking you to defend atheism/theism or whatever. I have a genuine question which is that how do you believe in a spiritual thing like a soul or something that extends beyond the physical body without a belief in a supernatural something outside of yourself? And I'm not calling your belief in that as a belief in god, but what the hell is it then?

Really, genuine question! I have this discussion a lot with people who just say "grand, there's no god, can't see one" and then inadequately (for me) describe the existence of some spiritual thing outside of themselves - the "soul".

I don't get it. Nor do I experience it.

I meet those people too. I was one as i transitioned from atheism into whatever it is i am now so i get what your saying and i get where they come from too.

Take this phrase..

Shrap wrote: »

I would think it was a matter of faith to think I had one, considering the lack of evidence.

You're absolutely correct. To date we have been unable to prove the existence of this "energy". It is a matter of faith. However if you were to experience it, and I appreciate you're saying that you haven't, but if you did, you would no longer require faith to know it existed.

I've experienced it. I'm not asking you to believe that and I can't prove it but that's not relevant to the point...

Because if it's my reality that I experience this "energy" then i'm in a position of believing without the need for faith and without the need for a belief in a god.

And despite all that, the faith required is a faith in some kind of feeling or energy. It's most definitely not a faith or belief in some kind of deity.

I would have no problem separating the 2 but i appreciate that's only my perspective.

Shrap · 04-01-2016 11:06pm

Swanner wrote: »

Because if it's my reality that I experience this "energy" then i'm in a position of believing without the need for faith and without the need for a belief in a god.

Ok, but I'd love to hear an explanation for this energy

I accept what you're saying though.

Pherekydes · 05-01-2016 12:34am

I think that soul is just another name for psyche, or the mind. Or the totality of the self. What makes you you. All of your experiences, memories, likes, dislikes, loves and hates makes you you. You don't come with it all preinstalled at conception. When the power supply is disconnected at death, you lose it all.

Unless you can download it onto a usb key before you go, of course.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 1:30am

Shrap wrote: »

Ok, but I'd love to hear an explanation for this energy I accept what you're saying though.

It's near impossible to describe. It's more of an experience then a feeling. But I tune into it sometimes when I meditate and when I do it's always deeply profound.

I don't expect anyone on an atheist forum to accept it, but for the purpose of the discussion nobody needs to.

I am open to the potential that my perception of the experience is biased but it is a common experience among those who meditate and it feels instinctively right. Like down to the core right.

I was just interested to see the total opposition to any form of life after death on the other thread, when it had never crossed my mind that it would be a problem. I never saw it as requiring any form of god.

The default position is clearly no and I do understand why. Atheism and an Afterlife just don't sit well together. But I do believe it is possible, given the right circumstances, for an atheist to believe in a continuation of some form of consciousness after death without compromising their lack of belief in any form of deity.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 1:37am

Pherekydes wrote: »

What makes you you. All of your experiences, memories, likes, dislikes, loves and hates makes you you. You don't come with it all preinstalled at conception.

Do you not think you become you at conception ?

Or do you believe everything that makes you you is environmental and occurs after birth ?

endacl · 05-01-2016 1:44am

Shrap wrote: »

Really, genuine question! I have this discussion a lot with people who just say "grand, there's no god, can't see one" and then inadequately (for me) describe the existence of some spiritual thing outside of themselves - the "soul".

I don't get it. Nor do I experience it.

Are you, by any chance, of the 'ginger' persuasion? I believe they do have some difficulty in this regard.

Mark Tapley · 05-01-2016 2:45am

Swanner wrote: »

I meet those people too. I was one as i transitioned from atheism into whatever it is i am now so i get what your saying and i get where they come from too.

Take this phrase..

You're absolutely correct. To date we have been unable to prove the existence of this "energy". It is a matter of faith. However if you were to experience it, and I appreciate you're saying that you haven't, but if you did, you would no longer require faith to know it existed.

I've experienced it. I'm not asking you to believe that and I can't prove it but that's not relevant to the point...

Because if it's my reality that I experience this "energy" then i'm in a position of believing without the need for faith and without the need for a belief in a god.

And despite all that, the faith required is a faith in some kind of feeling or energy. It's most definitely not a faith or belief in some kind of deity.

I would have no problem separating the 2 but i appreciate that's only my perspective.

I think you have swapped your mumbo jumbo for some gobbledegook.

the_syco · 05-01-2016 3:01am

Swanner wrote: »

Atheism and an Afterlife just don't sit well together. But I do believe it is possible, given the right circumstances, for an atheist to believe in a continuation of some form of consciousness after death without compromising their lack of belief in any form of deity.

An afterlife is made by those who want to profit from those who fear death.

As no-one comes back from the dead, no-one knows if it's wasted money until they're dead, and by then it's too late.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-01-2016 3:04am

That guy who dropped LSD and met Jesus was convinced that was real, too.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 8:50am

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I think you have swapped your mumbo jumbo for some gobbledegook.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That guy who dropped LSD and met Jesus was convinced that was real, too.

What's with the dismissive one liners ?

I'm not challenging atheism or anyone else's belief or lack of here.

I'm simply putting forward an approach that allows atheism to co exist with a belief in a continuation of some form of consciousness after death.

As i understand it, atheism has no belief system so surely it allows for very different approaches to these problems. I understand the evidence based approach taken by many of you and on that basis, the evidence is at best inconclusive. No one has ever proved it but neither have they disproved it and there is evidence to support both sides. So surely it has to be approached with an open mind ?

Pherekydes · 05-01-2016 9:07am

Swanner wrote: »

Do you not think you become you at conception ?

Not at all.

Or do you believe everything that makes you you is environmental and occurs after birth ?

Quite a lot of it. Me and my siblings are like chalk and cheese. There's wide variety within my own offspring. It's mostly picked up by learning, osmosis, peer groups and so on.

Mark Tapley · 05-01-2016 9:15am

Swanner wrote: »

What's with the dismissive one liners ?

I'm not challenging atheism or anyone else's belief or lack of here.
I'm simply putting forward an approach that allows atheism to co exist with a belief in a continuation of some form of consciousness after death.

As i understand it, atheism has no belief system so surely it allows for very different approaches to these problems. I understand the evidence based approach taken by many of you and on that basis, the evidence is at best inconclusive. No one has ever proved it but neither have they disproved it and there is evidence to support both sides. So surely it has to be approached with an open mind ?

I think you need to accept your existence is finite and stop grasping at straws. This mystic bollòx is more irritating than religion.

Shrap · 05-01-2016 9:51am

endacl wrote: »

Are you, by any chance, of the 'ginger' persuasion? I believe they do have some difficulty in this regard.

What?! Oh yes, that's right ....we have no souls and are spawn of the devil or something. I remember now

Shrap · 05-01-2016 9:55am

Swanner wrote: »

It's near impossible to describe. It's more of an experience then a feeling. But I tune into it sometimes when I meditate and when I do it's always deeply profound.

I don't expect anyone on an atheist forum to accept it, but for the purpose of the discussion nobody needs to.

I am open to the potential that my perception of the experience is biased but it is a common experience among those who meditate and it feels instinctively right. Like down to the core right.

Oh that. Right, no I've meditated and all that jazz, but can't say I'm any closer to "feeling instinctively" that I have a soul. Perhaps it comes down to one's perception of the experience, right enough.

kylith · 05-01-2016 10:00am

Do animals have souls, OP?

Akrasia · 05-01-2016 10:21am

When asked about swanners views on homeopathy or reiki

Swanner wrote: »

I have no real views on either tbh.

I don't count them or discount them.

If people get benefit from them then who am i to judge ?

This translates to me as 'I don't care about truth or reality'

Are you a postmodernist by any chance?

seamus · 05-01-2016 10:22am

Swanner wrote: »

Are they compatible ?

Well, yes. At the core of it atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god. If you don't have a god in your belief system, then it's atheist. While atheism is generally synonymous with rationality and science, it doesn't require it. Your athiest belief system can be any hodge-podge of nonsense provided it doesn't include the existence of a god.

TV programmes like Stargate posit a universe where no creator-god exists, but individuals can "ascend" to a higher energy-like consciousness. In fact the entire core of the series is about breaking down "gods" and freeing people to think for themselves. But a massive part of the story deals with religious-like themes about the afterlife without any god(s).

So an atheistic afterlife belief is possible.

And the obvious lead on question, Can we prove or disprove the existence of an afterlife....

It can be proven or disproven to the same extent that god can be proven or disproven. That is, there is zero evidence to that one exists, or any kind or form. However, like god(s), one can invent any "afterlife" that exists outside the realm of testability, thereby making it impossible to prove or disprove its existence.

Something that is not testable, can be ignored and assumed for all practical purposes to not exist.

What I find funny though is your insistence on being atheist, yet look at the below paragraph you wrote;

Swanner wrote: »

You're absolutely correct. To date we have been unable to prove the existence of this "energy". It is a matter of faith. However if you were to experience it, and I appreciate you're saying that you haven't, but if you did, you would no longer require faith to know it existed.

I've experienced it. I'm not asking you to believe that and I can't prove it but that's not relevant to the point...

Because if it's my reality that I experience this "energy" then i'm in a position of believing without the need for faith

...Replace the word "energy" with "God", and it would be something written by a religious believer. So in essence you've just swapped out the "God" for "something else".

The pertinent question to ask yourself is "Why are you atheist"? Then apply that rationale to your current belief system and see if it still fits.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 10:27am

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I think you need to accept your existence is finite and stop grasping at straws. This mystic bollòx is more irritating than religion.

Why would I though ? Because you state it as fact ?

Fine then show me the definitive proof that no afterlife exists.

If I say i have an open mind with regard to an afterlife and you state categorically that i'm wrong, surely then the burden of proof lies with you to provide definitive evidence to back up that statement ?

I'm not looking to play games here. We both know that an afterlife to date cannot be proven nor disproven.

You have your opinion and that's fine. I respect both your opinion and your right to hold it. But in the absence of definitive proof one way or the other it is, was and will remain just that. An opinion.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 10:29am

Akrasia wrote: »

When asked about swanners views on homeopathy or reiki

This translates to me as 'I don't care about truth or reality'

Are you a postmodernist by any chance?

No.

It means..

I have no real views on either tbh.

I don't count them or discount them.

If people get benefit from them then who am i to judge ?

Akrasia · 05-01-2016 10:35am

I'm just after spending a few days in hospital dealing with an infection. I don't know if it was the antibiotics. Or the painkillers, or the exhaustion or just the weird environment of a hospital ward, but every time I closed my eyes I instantly had visual and even sensational hallucinations. If i was superstitions i would have been fully convinced that they were ghosts or apparitions or whatever. But that would have been a completely unreasonable conclusion given the mental state I was in.

Our brains are fully capable of constructing realities independent of external stimulus. When you meditate you're deliberately pushing your brain to behave in an abnormal way, so when you enter an abnormal brain state, that's exactly what you would expect to happen

Huntergonzo · 05-01-2016 10:39am

After death we're all worm feed so enjoy your innings people, it's the only one we'll ever have.

As for a soul, I have to admit I find the idea quite dull and vague, to me it simply doesn't exist, period. But the idea/existence of a soul seems to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but sure look whatever gets them through their day is fine by me......once they don't badger me about my 'soul' of course!

Akrasia · 05-01-2016 10:43am

Swanner wrote: »

No.

It means..

I have no real views on either tbh.

I don't count them or discount them.

If people get benefit from them then who am i to judge ?

You don't need to judge the people who use them but why would you not feel like you can judge the technology beneath these practices?

Some things are just scams. If someone told you that they were thinking of investing in a pyramid scheme would you consider that wise?

Mark Tapley · 05-01-2016 10:47am

Swanner wrote: »

Why would I though ? Because you state it as fact ?

Fine then show me the definitive proof that no afterlife exists.

If I say i have an open mind with regard to an afterlife and you state categorically that i'm wrong, surely then the burden of proof lies with you to provide definitive evidence to back up that statement ?

I'm not looking to play games here. We both know that an afterlife to date cannot be proven nor disproven.

You have your opinion and that's fine. I respect both your opinion and your right to hold it. But in the absence of definitive proof one way or the other it is, was and will remain just that. An opinion.

Thats not how it works , you are the one with the energy afterlife supposition. That despite the fact your brain is rotting in a box you will retain some form of consciousness. I say that is a farcical belief. The burden of proof is yours.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 10:52am

seamus wrote: »

Well, yes. At the core of it atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god. If you don't have a god in your belief system, then it's atheist. While atheism is generally synonymous with rationality and science, it doesn't require it. Your athiest belief system can be any hodge-podge of nonsense provided it doesn't include the existence of a god.

TV programmes like Stargate posit a universe where no creator-god exists, but individuals can "ascend" to a higher energy-like consciousness. In fact the entire core of the series is about breaking down "gods" and freeing people to think for themselves. But a massive part of the story deals with religious-like themes about the afterlife without any god(s).

So an atheistic afterlife belief is possible.

OK Thanks. My point was that not all atheists would obviously share the belief but that in theory it is possible. If you're atheist and believe it's possible then my question is answered. It only needs one

seamus wrote: »

It can be proven or disproven to the same extent that god can be proven or disproven. That is, there is zero evidence to that one exists, or any kind or form. However, like god(s), one can invent any "afterlife" that exists outside the realm of testability, thereby making it impossible to prove or disprove its existence.

Something that is not testable, can be ignored and assumed for all practical purposes to not exist.

Understood and this is where NDE's come in to play for me. We have so many documented experiences of a continuation of consciousness that I don't believe we can just ignore it. There may be a rational explanation, they could all be making it up but until we investigate and discount these possibilities it should surely remain on the table for discussion.

seamus wrote: »

What I find funny though is your insistence on being atheist, yet look at the below paragraph you wrote;

...Replace the word "energy" with "God", and it would be something written by a religious believer. So in essence you've just swapped out the "God" for "something else".

The pertinent question to ask yourself is "Why are you atheist"? Then apply that rationale to your current belief system and see if it still fits.

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I no longer identify as atheist.

I was raised in a Christian home but never accepted Christianity. Que years and years of soul searching which continues to this day.. For about 6 years of that i identified as atheist...

But over the years as i challenged myself on this I came to recognise nature as a "force" i couldn't ignore. I suppose you could say it was intelligent design that got me in the end. I'm not " religious", I have no label for what i believe, I don't claim to have any answers, it's very much a work in progress and always will be, but I do believe in a something other then the physical of this world so i cannot be considered atheist.

And from my own perspective, as i witness this "force" every day when i walk the woods or the beach, I have no requirement for any faith in anything unseen whatsoever.

So that's where I sit. It's taken me 40 years to get here and it's through discussion like this that I continue to develop my understanding of it all.

So thanks for posting..

Akrasia · 05-01-2016 11:00am

Swanner wrote: »

but I do believe in a something other then the physical of this world so i cannot be considered atheist.

..

You've just answered your own question

seamus · 05-01-2016 11:04am

Swanner wrote: »

Understood and this is where NDE's come in to play for me. We have so many documented experiences of a continuation of consciousness that I don't believe we can just ignore it. There may be a rational explanation, they could all be making it up but until we investigate and discount these possibilities it should surely remain on the table for discussion.

You see, what you've done is jump one step ahead in the investigation. Here's what I mean;
As a phenomenon, NDE's happen. We accept that, as you say we have documented proof that people have these experiences.
The next logical step is to investigate the experiences themselves - when do they happen, what do they involve, why do they happen, etc etc.

You've jumped to the next step - assumed that NDEs are the result of the afterlife "poking in" and therefore the existence of the afterlife should not be ignored.

There is literally an infinite number of theories which could be imagined to explain NDE's. The existence of the afterlife is just one of these theories and doesn't stand out as being more likely than any other.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 11:17am

Akrasia wrote: »

Our brains are fully capable of constructing realities independent of external stimulus. When you meditate you're deliberately pushing your brain to behave in an abnormal way, so when you enter an abnormal brain state, that's exactly what you would expect to happen

I agree. Our minds are capable of creating all sorts of "realities". I suppose it's something i instinctively feel or "know" when i experience it. But as i said before, you don't need to believe me to discuss the theory.

And as i said, i'm open to other possibilities, including yours, but in the absence of conclusive evidence either way, i trust my gut and my own experience.

Akrasia wrote: »

You don't need to judge the people who use them but why would you not feel like you can judge the technology beneath these practices?

Some things are just scams. If someone told you that they were thinking of investing in a pyramid scheme would you consider that wise?

Because I have no experience of them so i'm not going to claim to have the answers either way. If people believe they get benefit from homeopathy or reiki i'm sure as hell not going to tell them they don't. There my be all sorts of rational explanations for how they benefit but as always in the absence of definitive proof either way i'll retain an open mind.

Huntergonzo · 05-01-2016 11:17am

Swanner wrote: »

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I no longer identify as atheist.

I was raised in a Christian home but never accepted Christianity. Que years and years of soul searching which continues to this day.. For about 6 years of that i identified as atheist...

But over the years as i challenged myself on this I came to recognise nature as a "force" i couldn't ignore. I suppose you could say it was intelligent design that got me in the end. I'm not " religious", I have no label for what i believe, I don't claim to have any answers, it's very much a work in progress and always will be, but I do believe in a something other then the physical of this world so i cannot be considered atheist.

And from my own perspective, as i witness this "force" every day when i walk the woods or the beach, I have no requirement for any faith in anything unseen whatsoever.

So that's where I sit. It's taken me 40 years to get here and it's through discussion like this that I continue to develop my understanding of it all.

So thanks for posting..

The "force", are you sure you're not talking about the new Star Wars?.. .sorry, sorry that was flippant.

Anyway look I can't claim to know what's in your head but I do admire people who constantly challenge themselves and ask questions about our existence. We humans know so little about the universe around us and the best way to continue learning is to constantly ask new questions and challenge unproven beliefs.

As for believing in something other than this physical world, well there are probably plenty of things yet to be discovered about our own home planet and there's an incalculable number of unanswered questions regarding other world's in our solar system and indeed the entire universe. For me those are the really interesting mysteries and I like to see people channel their curiosity down those paths.

Again I don't have any interest in the supernatural and I don't think it holds any of the answers. But no matter what you believe I think you should occasionally challenge yourself just to make sure you're happy with what you do and don't believe and also to keep learning new things.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 11:24am

seamus wrote: »

You've jumped to the next step - assumed that NDEs are the result of the afterlife "poking in" and therefore the existence of the afterlife should not be ignored.

There is literally an infinite number of theories which could be imagined to explain NDE's. The existence of the afterlife is just one of these theories and doesn't stand out as being more likely than any other.

But I don't think I have....

Swanner wrote: »

Understood and this is where NDE's come in to play for me. We have so many documented experiences of a continuation of consciousness that I don't believe we can just ignore it. There may be a rational explanation, they could all be making it up but until we investigate and discount these possibilities it should surely remain on the table for discussion.

I'm open to all possibilities that have not yet been disproven. I mentioned earlier that there's some early research on brain stem function and how it could play a part. I look forward to reading the findings. I'm not looking for answers to validate my beliefs. I'm just looking for answers that provide definitive proof one way or the other. Futile I know but sure that's what we do.

recedite · 05-01-2016 11:28am

Swanner wrote: »

For about 6 years of that i identified as atheist...

But over the years as i challenged myself on this I came to recognise nature as a "force" i couldn't ignore. I suppose you could say it was intelligent design that got me in the end. ..

And from my own perspective, as i witness this "force" every day when i walk the woods or the beach, I have no requirement for any faith in anything unseen whatsoever...

You might enjoy Carl Sagan's classic short film; Pale Blue Dot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=923jxZY2NPI

Or David Attenborough's Wonderful World

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8WHKRzkCOY

Neither of these guys had any time for so called "intelligent design" or creationists.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 11:33am

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Thats not how it works , you are the one with the energy afterlife supposition. That despite the fact your brain is rotting in a box you will retain some form of consciousness. I say that is a farcical belief. The burden of proof is yours.

I say there's evidence to suggest either of us could be correct and i'm open to that possibility.

You say, Nonsense. That you are correct and I am wrong. You're shutting down all other possibility and stating your position as fact.

I believe in that instance, the burden of proof is on you - No ?

kylith · 05-01-2016 11:33am

Swanner wrote: »

I agree. Our minds are capable of creating all sorts of "realities". I suppose it's something i instinctively feel or "know" when i experience it. But as i said before, you don't need to believe me to discuss the theory.

And as i said, i'm open to other possibilities, including yours, but in the absence of conclusive evidence either way, i trust my gut and my own experience.

That's your mistake, I think. Trusting your gut because you 'feel' or 'know' something with no proof. People 'knew' in their gut that illness was caused by demons. They 'felt' that witches were real. If everyone had left it at that we'd still be dying of treatable illnesses and hanging mad old women. Don't trust things you 'just feel' or 'know in your heart' because that's not proof.

For what I've read the most plausible reason for NDE's is a chemical dump by a dying brain. Why are they so similar? For the same reason that LSD trips tend to be rather similar. Have a google of, IIRC, the God Helmet: it is possible to induce religious experiences using electromagnetism.

Swanner wrote: »

Because I have no experience of them so i'm not going to claim to have the answers either way. If people believe they get benefit from homeopathy or reiki i'm sure as hell not going to tell them they don't. There my be all sorts of rational explanations for how they benefit but as always in the absence of definitive proof either way i'll retain an open mind.

That's a bit of a cop out, don't you think? No-one that I've seen has asked what you think of people who believe in reiki or homeopathy, they've asked what you think of reiki and homeopathy themselves.

And as for 'definitive proof either way' there are stacks and stacks of papers showing results no better than placebo and a handful saying that they work. It's like climate change deniers sayin that there's no scientific consensus when the truth is that more than 90% of scientists agree with climate change.

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 11:36am

Akrasia wrote: »

You've just answered your own question

Do you mean the original question ? Are they compatible ?

If so...

When I held that view I had not got to the point i'm at today. I had no belief in any god. None whatsoever. I believed that when we die, we rot. End of.

I was 100% atheist yet I was more then comfortable with the idea that an energy within me could continue on after death.

It would be fair to say that it all sits a lot easier with me now that I can accept something "other" whatever that is, but i don't believe the 2 are mutually exclusive.

sbsquarepants · 05-01-2016 11:36am

Swanner wrote: »

I completely agree that one personal account is proof of nothing but when you look at the growing numbers of NDE's, many with similar experiences, many with memory of the events we simply cannot explain and with so many high profile cases now documented, surely we have to take them seriously as part of an overall body evidence.

Every once in a while on a quite regular basis I find myself transported to far off worlds, some familiar some strange where I talk and interact with all manner of people, some I know, some are strangers, some I know to be long dead and gone. It's all utterly believable and I experience it as real - then my alarm goes off and I get up and go to work!:mad:

The mind is a strange and scarcely understood thing - but one thing we know for damn sure is that it's at best a fantasist and at worst a bare faced liar! Just because you experience something (much less so hear that someone else claims to have experienced something) doesn't mean jack shít.
Your mind is so easily distorted and manipulated by hormones , drugs etc. that you just can't rely on anything it says, especially in times of stress......such as almost dying!

The Bishop Basher · 05-01-2016 11:50am

kylith wrote: »

For what I've read the most plausible reason for NDE's is a chemical dump by a dying brain. Why are they so similar? For the same reason that LSD trips tend to be rather similar. Have a google of, IIRC, the God Helmet: it is possible to induce religious experiences using electromagnetism.

That's my point though. You've mentioned a couple of realistic and valid explanations which have to be thoroughly investigated.

The difference is that I don't discount the idea that it could actually be a consciousness beyond death because as long as there is evidence in both directions and as long as it has not been definitively proven one way or the other, I cannot be in a position to state anything as fact.

I have my opinion and i can try and defend it with the evidence we do have but at the end of the day you'll have just as much evidence to dispute my claim so I just accept that reality that none of us can actually know for sure.

kylith wrote: »

That's a bit of a cop out, don't you think? No-one that I've seen has asked what you think of people who believe in reiki or homeopathy, they've asked what you think of reiki and homeopathy themselves.

If I must give an opinion i'd say i'm highly skeptical but in the absence of definitive proof either way i'll continue to maintain an open mind on the topic.

Atheism and the Afterlife

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