When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

smurgen · 02-01-2016 04:14PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hm, I guess I prefer the mechanical nature. Having said that I'm currently learning Spanish, I don't have much experience with French but I believe the grammar is similar? I find Spanish grammar much more intuitive than Irish.

If only I could get that blasted thrilled "R" correct.

Spanish is the only one I'd trade in the Irish language for.mainly because Spanish speaking countries are those I'd love to travel.heard it's one of the easier to learn tho.It all depends on how your brain works I suppose.I was studying a lot of number based subjects at the time and I think my brain was saturated with rules.the irish was almost a welcome break.my god that should depressing!

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 04:16PM

smurgen wrote: »

Spanish is the only one I'd trade in the Irish language for.mainly because Spanish speaking countries are those I'd love to travel.heard it's one of the easier to learn tho.It all depends on how your brain works I suppose.I was studying a lot of number based subjects at the time and I think my brain was saturated with rules.the irish was almost a welcome break.my god that should depressing!

The interesting thing about Spanish though is how "flexible" the grammar rules are. And by that I mean native speakers seem to just ignore them when it suits!

smurgen wrote: »

One thing I've learned if I've learned anything is that time studying isn't time wasted.like how people give out about people studying arts in college. If we were to study from an early age on specific subjects then I think we leave ourselves open to failure.I think it's vital to have a diverse range of subjects.even if I never used irish to earn money there's probably transferable skills I picked up and used elsewhere.

I'm not saying subjects with questionable financial benefit shouldn't be taught, but they shouldn't be mandatory.

smurgen · 02-01-2016 04:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The interesting thing about Spanish though is how "flexible" the grammar rules are. And by that I mean native speakers seem to just ignore them when it suits!

I'm not saying subjects with questionable financial benefit shouldn't be taught, but they shouldn't be mandatory.

I'd don't think anything should be mandatory either.except maybe physical education and maths.

trixychic · 02-01-2016 04:36PM

I would love to learn Irish now. It wasn't taught properly in school so I never did get it.

But there is a scarcity of courses for adults in my area. It's hard to find a place that will teach it for everyday use. The only course I know of is to repeat the leaving cert Irish. It didnt work out the first time around so I am defo not going to do it now.

Eugene Norman · 02-01-2016 05:05PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A man after my own heart, pity you spent so much time learning a dying language.

If I took a drink every time the "dying language" was mentioned on this thread I'd be drunk as a fool.

The idea is to keep it alive.

Edgarfrndly · 02-01-2016 05:14PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's definitely more difficult to learn than any of the Romance or Germanic languages, and it doesn't help when we have people claiming to be fluent who's Irish is no better than an average 12 year old's English.

No it isn't. It's as easy to learn any of those languages.

No language is difficult to learn. Anyone can become proficient in any language on the planet within 2 years, provided immersion is a part of that process.

Benny the Irish Polyglot is a great example of someone who embodies this. Within 3 months of landing in a host country, he's already comfortable at speaking the native language.

I spoke to him here about the Irish language, and he fully agreed it's an easy language to learn, and that the biggest obstacle holding it back was lack of immersion in schools.

And this is coming from a guy who is fluent in nearly a dozen languages. I think he's in a better position than you on judging how difficult the Irish language is to acquire.

On a personal note, I couldn't speak the language until setting up a conversational group in my city about 10 years ago. Over the following year or two, I went from being unable to speak it - to holding comfortable conversations in the gaeltacht.

So whatever preconceived notions you have about it being a difficult language, are wrong.

Sam Kade · 02-01-2016 05:17PM

In the 1911 census lots of people were fluent in both English and Irish.

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 05:22PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

No it isn't. It's as easy to learn any of those languages.

No language is difficult to learn. Anyone can become proficient in any language on the planet within 2 years, provided immersion is a part of that process.

Benny the Irish Polyglot is a great example of someone who embodies this. Within 3 months of landing in a host country, he's already comfortable at speaking the native language.

I spoke to him here about the Irish language, and he fully agreed it's an easy language to learn, and that the biggest obstacle holding it back was lack of immersion in schools.

And this is coming from a guy who is fluent in nearly a dozen languages. I think he's in a better position than you on judging how difficult the Irish language is to acquire.

On a personal note, I couldn't speak the language until setting up a conversational group in my city about 10 years ago. Over the following year or two, I went from being unable to speak it - to holding comfortable conversations in the gaeltacht.

So whatever preconceived notions you have about it being a difficult language, are wrong.

Did you ask him was Irish comparatively easy or difficult to learn in comparison to Spanish or French? Because that's what we were talking about, not how easy the language is to lean in isolation, which is entirely subjective.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

If I took a drink every time the "dying language" was mentioned on this thread I'd be drunk as a fool.

The idea is to keep it alive.

The idea has been it keep it alive since the turn of the 20th century. It's still dying and will continue to linger on in a state of comatose.

darkpagandeath · 02-01-2016 05:26PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Did you ask him was Irish comparatively easy or difficult to learn in comparison to Spanish or French? Because that's what we were talking about, not how easy the language is to lean in isolation, which is entirely subjective.

The idea has been it keep it alive since the turn of the 20th century. It's still dying and will continue to linger on in a state of comatose.

If they removed its ridiculous level of funding and alike I would say 10 years max and it would be gone effectively. Its on life support at the moment.

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 05:27PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

If they removed it ridiculous level of funding and alike I would say 10 years max and it would be gone effectively. Its on life support at the moment.

It's effectively brain dead, a brain dead language being kept alive on life support. The problem is, we're paying the electricity bill.

Edgarfrndly · 02-01-2016 05:35PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Did you ask him was Irish comparatively easy or difficult to learn in comparison to Spanish or French? Because that's what we were talking about, not how easy the language is to lean in isolation, which is entirely subjective.

Yes I did. He agreed that it was no more difficult than any other European language to learn. The Irish language is not a difficult language to acquire, if you do it properly.

I was exactly where you are now. I wasn't particularly strong at Irish in school, and thought it was impossible to learn as a teen. But a few years out of school, having setup a conversational group here - I learned that it's actually a pretty easy language to pick up. All I did was brought a little notebook with me for the first few months, jotting down any phrases I kept hearing repeated and added them to my vocabulary.

Not once did I worry about tenses, or grammar. Within a few months, I became comfortable with myself when speaking it.

MRnotlob606 · 02-01-2016 05:40PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

Yes I did. He agreed that it was no more difficult than any other European language to learn. The Irish language is not a difficult language to acquire, if you do it properly.

I was exactly where you are now. I wasn't particularly strong at Irish in school, and thought it was impossible to learn as a teen. But a few years out of school, having setup a conversational group here - I learned that it's actually a pretty easy language to pick up. All I did was brought a little notebook with me for the first few months, jotting down any phrases I kept hearing repeated and added them to my vocabulary.

Not once did I worry about tenses, or grammar. Within a few months, I became comfortable with myself when speaking it.

That's exactly the route I am currently taking, I was terrible at Irish in school, But since I left I realised how important to our identity as a nation.I have completed the Irish course on duolingo and my Irish is better than it was at school

Currently looking at joining the local ciorcal comhrá.

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 05:41PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

Yes I did. He agreed that it was no more difficult than any other European language to learn. The Irish language is not a difficult language to acquire, if you do it properly.

I was exactly where you are now. I wasn't particularly strong at Irish in school, and thought it was impossible to learn as a teen. But a few years out of school, having setup a conversational group here - I learned that it's actually a pretty easy language to pick up. All I did was brought a little notebook with me for the first few months, jotting down any phrases I kept hearing repeated and added them to my vocabulary.

Not once did I worry about tenses, or grammar. Within a few months, I became comfortable with myself when speaking it.

That doesn't tell you anything. European languages vary in difficultly a great deal.

Can I ask why you spent so much time learning a useless language? You could have learned German, or French or Spanish. Why Irish? also I'm sceptical about how good your speech was if you weren't "worried about grammar".

Edgarfrndly · 02-01-2016 05:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The idea has been it keep it alive since the turn of the 20th century. It's still dying and will continue to linger on in a state of comatose.

It's in a more powerful position now than it was 25 years ago. We have a lot more Irish language media now - Our own TV channel, with Irish language programs also aired on BBC. Multiple radio stations operating in Irish, or with Irish language programming.. Irish language websites, and so forth..

You have people like Ed Sheeran recording his songs in Irish, and Irish language musical festivals like Ravelóid keeping the language relevant for teenagers.

You may not like the language, or like that it receives funding. I'm not here to argue who's opinion is valid or invalid. But the language most certainly isn't dead. It's a minority language, in a similar position to many minority languages around the world.

Caoimhgh1n · 02-01-2016 05:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That doesn't tell you anything. European languages vary in difficultly a great deal.

Can I ask why you spent so much time learning a useless language? You could have learned German, or French or Spanish. Why Irish? also I'm sceptical about how good your speech was if you weren't "worried about grammar".

Grammar comes with time. Your mother/father didn't go around teaching you grammar rules, you picked them up through listening to her/him and other people speak.

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 05:48PM

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Grammar comes with time. Your mother/father didn't go around teaching you grammar rules, you picked them up through listening to her/him and other people speak.

Children learn languages different to adults.

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 05:50PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

It's in a more powerful position now than it was 25 years ago. We have a lot more Irish language media now - Our own TV channel, with Irish language programs also aired on BBC. Multiple radio stations operating in Irish, or with Irish language programming.. Irish language websites, and so forth..

You have people like Ed Sheeran recording his songs in Irish, and Irish language musical festivals like Ravelóid keeping the language relevant for teenagers.

You may not like the language, or like that it receives funding. I'm not here to argue who's opinion is valid or invalid. But the language most certainly isn't dead. It's a minority language, in a similar position to many minority languages around the world.

You realize you're agreeing with me?

Edgarfrndly · 02-01-2016 05:56PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That doesn't tell you anything. European languages vary in difficultly a great deal.

It tells you that the language is not difficult to learn. I think you're splitting hairs at this point.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Can I ask why you spent so much time learning a useless language? You could have learned German, or French or Spanish. Why Irish?

Do you expect to have an productive conversation when you use emotive words like "useless language"? I don't actually think you're interested in listening what I have to say. Your intent is to just project your views that the language is useless, and that it's a futile goal to learn it. Anyone sharing anecdotes countering your views, won't actually register with you.

I spent time learning the language, because I felt it would be an interesting journey to take. I felt disappointed that I had spent so many years in school learning it, without being able to speak it. I wanted to correct that.

I was rewarded in full, with all of the friends I have made and places I have visited over the years. I found and lost love through the language. Met interesting characters from all around the world.

For me - it was worth all the time I invested, and then some.

also I'm sceptical about how good your speech was if you weren't "worried about grammar".[

Grammar isn't a relevant part of language acquisition. Building confidence and vocabulary is. That's the biggest problem with have with the curriculum. A child is not going to feel comfortable speaking a language, if they are constantly corrected on any grammatical mistakes they make.

They need to, and should be encouraged to make mistakes. It will increase their confidence, and allow for natural acquisition of the language over time. The grammar aspect of the language will come later, naturally.

As for how good my ability at speaking was - I was the chairperson for Conradh na Gaeilge in my city for years. I'd hazard a guess it was just fine.

Edgarfrndly · 02-01-2016 06:00PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You realize you're agreeing with me?

Actually, I'm not. Your claim was that the language was on it's deathbed, and was going to continue in that downward direction.

I countered that claim by demonstrating that the Irish language is in a much better position today, than it was previously. That because we have wider access to Irish language media, the language generally has a positive future.

That's not to say there's not obstacles ahead, or some issues need addressing. But the idea that the language is dead is ill-founded in my opinion.

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 06:14PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

It tells you that the language is not difficult to learn. I think you're splitting hairs at this point.

Some European languages are very hard to learn. My point is that while Irish may not be as hard as Finnish or Russian it's certainly harder than German or Spanish. In my experience.

Do you expect to have an productive conversation when you use emotive words like "useless language"? I don't actually think you're interested in listening what I have to say. Your intent is to just project your views that the language is useless, and that it's a futile goal to learn it. Anyone sharing anecdotes countering your views, won't actually register with you.

I don't view calling Irish a useless language as emotive. A language is a tool of communication, if every one who speaks Irish also speaks English but not vice versa then the language literally has no use and is by definition "useless" that's not emotive or agenda pushing.

I spent time learning the language, because I felt it would be an interesting journey to take. I felt disappointed that I had spent so many years in school learning it, without being able to speak it. I wanted to correct that.

I was rewarded in full, with all of the friends I have made and places I have visited over the years. I found and lost love through the language. Met interesting characters from all around the world.

For me - it was worth all the time I invested, and then some.

But why Irish? You could have experienced all of that through any other language? Why study Irish?

Grammar isn't a relevant part of language acquisition. Building confidence and vocabulary is. That's the biggest problem with have with the curriculum. A child is not going to feel comfortable speaking a language, if they are constantly corrected on any grammatical mistakes they make.

They need to, and should be encouraged to make mistakes. It will increase their confidence, and allow for natural acquisition of the language over time. The grammar aspect of the language will come later, naturally.

As for how good my ability at speaking was - I was the chairperson for Conradh na Gaeilge in my city for years. I'd hazard a guess it was just fine.

Being corrected on one's grammar while speaking does not bode well for building confidence. How can a person ever speak confidently if they are unsure whether they're stringing their sentences together correctly.

darkpagandeath · 02-01-2016 06:19PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

It's in a more powerful position now than it was 25 years ago. We have a lot more Irish language media now - Our own TV channel, with Irish language programs also aired on BBC. Multiple radio stations operating in Irish, or with Irish language programming.. Irish language websites, and so forth..

You have people like Ed Sheeran recording his songs in Irish, and Irish language musical festivals like Ravelóid keeping the language relevant for teenagers.

You may not like the language, or like that it receives funding. I'm not here to argue who's opinion is valid or invalid. But the language most certainly isn't dead. It's a minority language, in a similar position to many minority languages around the world.

Don't you get grants or tax cuts and alike for Irish language content ? I would hardly say it's being done for language promotion only. There is a whole industry around getting money for Irish language content.

I never hear any "Teenagers around here speaking Irish".

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 06:22PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

Actually, I'm not. Your claim was that the language was on it's deathbed, and was going to continue in that downward direction.

I countered that claim by demonstrating that the Irish language is in a much better position today, than it was previously. That because we have wider access to Irish language media, the language generally has a positive future.

That's not to say there's not obstacles ahead, or some issues need addressing. But the idea that the language is dead is ill-founded in my opinion.

Irish is on it's deathbed, it won't die in the foreseeable future. But it will continue to dwindle. I'd read this before you think about a resurgence of Irish.

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=3726

Edgarfrndly · 02-01-2016 06:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Some European languages are very hard to learn. My point is that while Irish may not be as hard as Finnish or Russian it's certainly harder than German or Spanish. In my experience.

But what is your experience? If your experience is in the context of a classroom, where very little immersion occurs - then your experience is limited. My experience encompasses a natural environment, where I'm immersed with Irish language speakers. In that context, I found the language easy to acquire.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't view calling Irish a useless language as emotive. A language is a tool of communication, if every one who speaks Irish also speaks English but not vice versa then the language literally has no use and is by definition "useless" that's not emotive or agenda pushing.

The question didn't require for you to re-affirm your view on whether or not you find the language useless. It most certainly was an emotive question, evident by the tone in which you asked it.

The reality of linguistics is, the majority of the world's population is bilingual or multilingual. The majority of those languages are spoken in the scenario where another wider spoken language could be used.

When I speak to someone in Irish, it is with the knowledge that we both speak Irish and can both express ourselves to each other with the language. We could use English. We could use German, or French or Spanish if we were also fluent in them. But we choose Irish. It is a matter of choice, and preference.

I find use in the language. And because you don't, you find difficulty in the idea of another person finding use in it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But why Irish? You could have experienced all of that through any other language? Why study Irish?

I chose Irish because I wanted to be able to speak the indigenous language of the island I live on. I chose Irish, because I invested a lot of time in school on it without anything to show for it, and I wanted to correct that. I chose Irish because I live in Ireland. I don't live in Spain or Germany or France. If such a scenario arose where I wanted to move to those countries, I would learn their respective languages.

Right now, German, French and Spanish has very little use to me. I have more use for the Irish language.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Being corrected on one's grammar while speaking does not bode well for building confidence. How can a person ever speak confidently if they are unsure whether they're stringing their sentences together correctly.

I think you're arguing from personal incredulity here. I think you should listen to what the polyglots are saying. And the one thing they agree on, is that in order to build confidence in speaking a language - you need to make mistakes, and not become overly conscious about every single word you speak.

Your grammar improves naturally over time. But in the early stages of language development, the most important thing should be to get grounded on the basics and become comfortable with using them. Being consistently corrected will make you more hesitant to speak.

BoatMad · 02-01-2016 06:56PM

I chose Irish because I wanted to be able to speak the indigenous language of the island I live on. I chose Irish, because I invested a lot of time in school on it without anything to show for it, and I wanted to correct that. I chose Irish because I live in Ireland. I don't live in Spain or Germany or France. If such a scenario arose where I wanted to move to those countries, I would learn their respective languages.

At this point in our history the indigenous or mother tongue of this country is English. Irish could be described as a historical language or even now a regional language.

darkpagandeath · 02-01-2016 07:03PM

BoatMad wrote: »

At this point in our history the indigenous or mother tongue of this country is English. Irish could be described as a historical language or even now a regional language.

I would go with an historical tongue that was replaced for a more common available trading language. Like what always happens in Human population. People tend to shift to the most common available way of communication. I have no idea why people try to stick massive emotive context onto stuff that has happened time and time again throughout history.

Iwasfrozen · 02-01-2016 07:13PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

But what is your experience? If your experience is in the context of a classroom, where very little immersion occurs - then your experience is limited. My experience encompasses a natural environment, where I'm immersed with Irish language speakers. In that context, I found the language easy to acquire.

We weren't arguing about whether the language was easy to acquire. In isolation, that term means nothing, but whether it is easy to learn in comparison to Spanish or French.

If we accept that the closer a language is to English the easier it will be for an English speaker to learn. And we accept that Irish is more different to English than French is. Then I don't see why you would argue Irish is easier than French.

The question didn't require for you to re-affirm your view on whether or not you find the language useless. It most certainly was an emotive question, evident by the tone in which you asked it.

The reality of linguistics is, the majority of the world's population is bilingual or multilingual. The majority of those languages are spoken in the scenario where another wider spoken language could be used.

When I speak to someone in Irish, it is with the knowledge that we both speak Irish and can both express ourselves to each other with the language. We could use English. We could use German, or French or Spanish if we were also fluent in them. But we choose Irish. It is a matter of choice, and preference.

I find use in the language. And because you don't, you find difficulty in the idea of another person finding use in it.

But that's the definition of uselessness. I suppose each to their own, you're not hurting anyone but I'll never understand it.

I chose Irish because I wanted to be able to speak the indigenous language of the island I live on. I chose Irish, because I invested a lot of time in school on it without anything to show for it, and I wanted to correct that. I chose Irish because I live in Ireland. I don't live in Spain or Germany or France. If such a scenario arose where I wanted to move to those countries, I would learn their respective languages.

Irish isn't the indigenous language of the island. I invested a lot of time in Irish too, that's why I want to make the subject optional, so if I ever have children in the Republic of Ireland they won't have to waste time for nothing to show for it either. Living in Ireland doesn't necessitate the speaking of Irish. I've lived here all my life, never once heard Irish outside the class room.

Right now, German, French and Spanish has very little use to me. I have more use for the Irish language.

you'd have far more use for those language if you spoke them.

I think you're arguing from personal incredulity here. I think you should listen to what the polyglots are saying. And the one thing they agree on, is that in order to build confidence in speaking a language - you need to make mistakes, and not become overly conscious about every single word you speak.

Your grammar improves naturally over time. But in the early stages of language development, the most important thing should be to get grounded on the basics and become comfortable with using them. Being consistently corrected will make you more hesitant to speak.

Fair enough but I'd rather learn before I make the mistakes. I can imagine if a person neglects their grammar they will be constantly corrected and that will make them hesitant to speak.

masti123 · 02-01-2016 09:27PM

freedominacup wrote: »

I know if that quote is accurate my estimation of Collins has plummeted.

Most Fine Gaelers have a incorrect view of what the man stood for. You should read The Path to Freedom

JupiterKid · 02-01-2016 10:56PM

Irish stopped being the main language of Ireland in the 18th and 19th centuries.

The fact that the Gaeltacht is shrinking at an alarming rate shows just how much in trouble the Irish language finds itself in.

90 years of forcing it down children's throats in school have utterly failed. Time for a new approach.

Orangebrigade · 02-01-2016 11:41PM

The language will be dead in probably 10 years. A lot of languages do just die, deal with it.

masti123 · 02-01-2016 11:52PM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

The language will be dead in probably 10 years. A lot of languages do just die, deal with it.

30 years ago, Gaelscoileanna weren't a thing and TG4 wasn't a thing, and yet the language survived to today. Now, there are more supports in place, and it is easier to find ways to listen to, speak and read Irish if you are so inclined.
The language may not thrive, but it will most definitely survive.

When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

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