are we too obsessed with beef suckler farming?

Dickie10 · 29-12-2015 08:54PM #1

i was down at the local mart a few weeks ago buying some store cattle (heifers) when a guy asked was i going to bull them, i told him no i would be finshing them as i like very particular cows for suckling, he seemed very surprised at me finishing them and i got to thinking that there seems to be a great love for having suckler cows. just wonndering why do lads seem so fond of sucklers? surely there are easier beef sytems, labour wise than calving cows, at the minute im trying to find out myself the beef sytem that fits best. i have 16 suckler cows and sell the bull calves at around 10 months and replace with weanling heifers i bring all these to finsh around 27-30 months mostly off grass. im finding the system of producing my own calves and finshing moreprofitable than buying weanlings, my cows take very little feeding in winter and hopefully if weather is any way dry i will have cows and calves out 1st april. im also buying a few stores and finshing them but find it risky. if i hadnt as much time on my hands i dint think id calve cows though, i dont know how lads hold down full time jobs and calve cows.

a neighbour calves around 100 suckler cows each spring and maintians they are mush more profitable than if he bought in cattle. he finishs all his cattle, so would the suckler to beef sytem leave most money on good land?

blue5000 · 29-12-2015 09:30PM

The most profitable farms in our (suckler) discussion group are the ones finishing everything+ buying in a few to finish as well.

Sam Kade · 29-12-2015 09:35PM

The cow drains a lot of profit from sucklers I'd imagine a lot of the profit is made up of single farm payment. A neighbour of mine went fully organic with sucklers and sheep to retain more of her sfp.

Toplink · 29-12-2015 09:42PM

blue5000 wrote: »

The most profitable farms in our (suckler) discussion group are the ones finishing everything+ buying in a few to finish as well.

Sorry, novice question here...

When you say finish, what age do you consider them finished? and who woud be the buyer typically for the finished animal?

Dickie10 · 29-12-2015 09:46PM

yes but what are the alternatives to a cow? i get rid of my bulls, limosuin x at 10 months. i try to have them at around 370-410 kg so i can get around 820-990 with this cash flow i use to replace these weanlings with good quality ch x hifers around 8 months in november. i finish all these heifers. i definitly find i can keep my cows for less than i buy in decent weanlings. i supppose i really need to up the numbers of cattle i finish every year.

IH784man · 29-12-2015 09:59PM

I'd say it comes from the times when everyone had a couple of cows calving on their farms,then son uses same farming methods as their father and it keeps recurring.Just what some farmers are used to.

Sam Kade · 29-12-2015 10:05PM

IH784man wrote: »

I'd say it comes from the times when everyone had a couple of cows calving on their farms,then son uses same farming methods as their father and it keeps recurring.Just what some farmers are used to.

Single suckling was practically unheard of in Ireland in the early 80's unless you had mountain land and stocked it with hardy cows on a low cost system. It took off when they gave a premium for every cow after milk quotas came in to keep up stock numbers.

Miname · 29-12-2015 10:10PM

There's something with suckers that I get a great kick out of. I don't get the same enjoyment out of bought in cattle and to be honest about it I do end up stretching both time and finances by having them. I definitely wouldn't be putting the same effort into the farm if I wasn't enjoying it. I'm calving around fifty and finish a small few every now and then as a part time farmer its plenty to keep me busy. There's plenty of more profitable options but then again it would just be another job.

Dickie10 · 29-12-2015 10:21PM

would it be possible to throw a few angus calves out of dairy herds out with my suckler cows in may? let them graze with the suckler cows and pull a bit of milk out of the cows , their very quite cows, two years ago one lim x frisan reared two calves handy. or would the suck calves keep pulling out of the same cow/cows. should i keep the two or three real pets and put an extra calf on them for the summer?

Bullocks · 29-12-2015 10:26PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

would it be possible to throw a few angus calves out of dairy herds out with my suckler cows in may? let them graze with the suckler cows and pull a bit of milk out of the cows , their very quite cows, two years ago one lim x frisan reared two calves handy. or would the suck calves keep pulling out of the same cow/cows. should i keep the two or three real pets and put an extra calf on them for the summer?

The price of calves now is a bit high to just leave them to chance sucking out the field and unless you have good milky cows they might leave their own calves lacking a bit .

Bullocks · 29-12-2015 10:37PM

I think alot of lads are a bit obsessed with sucklers , I'm not taking away from them , they breed brilliant stock and have great facilities, sheds and machinery but I wouldn't imagine they can trouser much profit .
I know one fulltime suckler farmer (he keeps a few hundred ewes aswell ) and you wouldn't know what he could sell from one week to the next so long as there's profit in it , there is no sentimentality, or any passengers carried and he will sell whatever is up in price when household bills need paying and if he has to hold onto stock when prices are bad he will use merchant credit and the overdraft hopefully until a lift comes . The sheep are handy if cattle prices are down hopefully sheep will be up or vice versa.
He ain't rolling in money but in fairness he is living ok

Cavanjack · 29-12-2015 11:43PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

yes but what are the alternatives to a cow? i get rid of my bulls, limosuin x at 10 months. i try to have them at around 370-410 kg so i can get around 820-990 with this cash flow i use to replace these weanlings with good quality ch x hifers around 8 months in november. i finish all these heifers. i definitly find i can keep my cows for less than i buy in decent weanlings. i supppose i really need to up the numbers of cattle i finish every year.

Why sell the Bulls and buy in heifers?
I would have thought the Bulls would leave more money than heifers.

Grueller · 29-12-2015 11:51PM

Cavanjack wrote: »

Why sell the Bulls and buy in heifers?
I would have thought the Bulls would leave more money than heifers.

Heifers easier handled I would imagine.

Cavanjack · 29-12-2015 11:59PM

Grueller wrote: »

Heifers easier handled I would imagine.

I'd keep a squeezed bullock of my own any day over a bought in heifer. Better weight gain, no chance of him being bought in calf, he won't come a bulling and no risk of disease being brought into herd. Maybe not?

Grueller · 30-12-2015 12:00AM

Cavanjack wrote: »

I'd keep a squeezed bullock of my own any day over a bought in heifer. Better weight gain, no chance of him being bought in calf, he won't come a bulling and no risk of disease being brought into herd. Maybe not?

Me too, but a lot of lads see heifers as easier handled.

blue5000 · 30-12-2015 12:06AM

Toplink wrote: »

Sorry, novice question here...

When you say finish, what age do you consider them finished? and who woud be the buyer typically for the finished animal?

Bulls finished (on the hook) at anywhere between 14 and 24 months, heifers usually by 24 months, sold to meat factory.

Dickie10 · 30-12-2015 12:13AM

i tried out keeping the bulls as bullocks one year, in 2013 they were good weanlings but when they were squeezed they seemed to stop putting on weight for a while, i sold them in september off grass at 30 months and got 1400 for two of the best and 1300 fro another the rest were around 1200. i believe if i drove them on, on 2-3kg a day/head i would have got in or around 1000 in january 2014. so having kept them for an extra 18 months i only got 350-400 euro more. i wont keep bulls as its another division of cattle and just dosent suit me, i find heifers come fat off grass if there managed well. this spring/summer i intend to use a few 5-6 acre paddocks and keep 20 heifers moving onto fresh ground instead of set stocking with the sheep as i used to, doing this with the sucklers last few years and its unreal how much value you get off the land

Bleating Lamb · 30-12-2015 12:39AM

Miname wrote: »

There's something with suckers that I get a great kick out of. I don't get the same enjoyment out of bought in cattle and to be honest about it I do end up stretching both time and finances by having them. I definitely wouldn't be putting the same effort into the farm if I wasn't enjoying it. I'm calving around fifty and finish a small few every now and then as a part time farmer its plenty to keep me busy. There's plenty of more profitable options but then again it would just be another job.

Would be of same thinking as yourself,working full time here and carrying a scatter of sucklers and sheep.....land quality wouldn't be hectic so unfortunately have at least a 5 month winter in,but have quality stock that calve in March and sell the weanlings in October.Watching the calves individual cows/bloodlines produce keeps the interest up,not the fortune made overall financially:)

memorystick · 30-12-2015 12:28PM

Grueller wrote: »

Me too, but a lot of lads see heifers as easier handled.

Heifers do better on my land. You could never finish a big continental bullocks on grass alone where I'm from.

Dickie10 · 26-04-2016 10:19AM

lost a decent calf last night to a twisted gut, was wtithing around on the ground kicking vet came out thought it was that or bloat from too much milk on the cow but dead cold this morning. il stick the cow on slats now and dry her off and factory her in summer, she was a bit mad anyway. definitly pushing me away from sucklers at this stage, il leave the bull in place for now but cant see myself rooting at cows much longer.

buying in weanling and store heifers is no comparison and leaving just as much profit too be honest

Dickie10 · 26-04-2016 10:19AM

no comparison labour wise i mean

jfh · 26-04-2016 10:45AM

Think this thread ties in with the farming in 10 years time, a lot of part time suckler guys will exit, I'm working full time & only for having my father around would never manage, it's the same with a lot of younger lads around me, some lads are trying to get a part time job to revolve around the bit of farming, these jobs are scarier than ever & most jobs require additional hours.
Back on thread, I think yes we are too crazy on sucklers, maybe the genomic scheme will change things, first year I'm going to let off a bunch of heifers & let the fertility dictate which I hold & not the showest heifer

Dickie10 · 26-04-2016 12:12PM

i know lads on marginal ground or average ground have to do suckling because there limited to it and selling weanlings, theres no need for me to be at that. a neighbour buys 12-18 monnthe old heiefers and finshes off grass, he only has 35 acres and says he makes a nice profit. i can see myself buying weanlings or these type and also some hereford and angus x heifers from dairy herds at 12 months and finishing all aloong with the sheep.

I am willing to put in the hours with the sheep or even up the numbers because it will actually pay to employ someone if i had to for a fortnight when im at the busiest lambing, after that any job withem will only be a day at most like shearing or dipping , thats only 2 days out of the year. my set up is pretty much complete now for a one man operattion for 150 ewes at my ease

freedominacup · 26-04-2016 12:21PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

i know lads on marginal ground or average ground have to do suckling because there limited to it and selling weanlings, theres no need for me to be at that. a neighbour buys 12-18 monnthe old heiefers and finshes off grass, he only has 35 acres and says he makes a nice profit. i can see myself buying weanlings or these type and also some hereford and angus x heifers from dairy herds at 12 months and finishing all aloong with the sheep.

I am willing to put in the hours with the sheep or even up the numbers because it will actually pay to employ someone if i had to for a fortnight when im at the busiest lambing, after that any job withem will only be a day at most like shearing or dipping , thats only 2 days out of the year. my set up is pretty much complete now for a one man operattion for 150 ewes at my ease

Twenty years ago they reckoned it took 300 ewes to provide a wage what are you going to do for the other half of your wages?

Alibaba · 26-04-2016 12:34PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

lost a decent calf last night to a twisted gut, was wtithing around on the ground kicking vet came out thought it was that or bloat from too much milk on the cow but dead cold this morning. il stick the cow on slats now and dry her off and factory her in summer, she was a bit mad anyway. definitly pushing me away from sucklers at this stage, il leave the bull in place for now but cant see myself rooting at cows much longer.

buying in weanling and store heifers is no comparison and leaving just as much profit too be honest

Sorry to hear that.

We've all been through it.

I've be thinking along the same lines as you , suckling ain't easy

rangler1 · 26-04-2016 12:48PM

freedominacup wrote: »

Twenty years ago they reckoned it took 300 ewes to provide a wage what are you going to do for the other half of your wages?

50 years ago my father was selling cull ewes for 6 pounds, our workman told me after that was his wage for two weeks :mad:

freedominacup · 26-04-2016 12:49PM

rangler1 wrote: »

50 years ago my father was selling cull ewes for 6 pounds, our workman told me after that was his wage for two weeks :mad:

Old diaries are some eyeopener. You'd wonder how they spent all the cash.

_Brian · 26-04-2016 01:17PM

Calf to beef would be a fair substitute to suckler farming. The problem is that the supply of suitable reasonably priced calves remains poor.
Perhaps as sexed semen becomes more reliable the numbers and types of calves available will lead to a levelling of prices.

Lads paying €350+ for hex and aax, €500+ for chx month old calves are overpaying, I understand it's supply and demand but hopefully this will level off.

Suckler cows on marginal land are a huge expense with 5-6 month wintering of cows not unusual. This is driving cow costs to €700+ for the year. The knock on is smaller weanlings selling for €700-800. All the risk associated with sucklers and little to no profit, madness.

patsy_mccabe · 26-04-2016 01:33PM

If milk prices stay on the low side for the years to come, the sale of beef dairy calves will come more into play. Maybe its time the Dept had a serious look at how to maximise the genetics of these calves. Dairy guys selecting bulls solely on the calving and gestation figures is an awful waste. If there was some scheme to encourage dairy guys to use better beef genetics, it would benefit all. Plenty of good bulls out there that are easy calving.

Panch18 · 26-04-2016 01:35PM

_Brian wrote: »

Calf to beef would be a fair substitute to suckler farming. The problem is that the supply of suitable reasonably priced calves remains poor.
Perhaps as sexed semen becomes more reliable the numbers and types of calves available will lead to a levelling of prices.

Lads paying €350+ for hex and aax, €500+ for chx month old calves are overpaying, I understand it's supply and demand but hopefully this will level off.

Suckler cows on marginal land are a huge expense with 5-6 month wintering of cows not unusual. This is driving cow costs to €700+ for the year. The knock on is smaller weanlings selling for €700-800. All the risk associated with sucklers and little to no profit, madness.

Personally I think calf to year and half would be an even better system on marginal land - many advantages, can sell cattle at any time if weather doesn't suit, no large cattle on the marginal land, housing requirements greatly reduced (Kale??) and much more animals to sell

But either system is better than sucklers imo

Dickie10 · 26-04-2016 02:55PM

i work a full time job teaching, thats where the other half of the wages comes from. thats exactly why im thinking of pulling the pin on sucklers, if i was at home full time then i would prob stay at it but way too much labour goes in for such a small profit. id say the sucklers to beef do leave me some better profit than weanling or store to beef but thats in a year you have no losses or c sections, havent seen one of them yet, plus tagging, dehorning, runningg after scours, weaniing etc

are we too obsessed with beef suckler farming?

Comments