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Replacing social welfare with a basic income

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24567…13

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    #32
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    melissak wrote: »
    If they made it slightly inconvenient to opt in for certain benefits those who really didn't need it wouldn't bother.

    What percentage of the population do you estimate wouldn't bother for an extra 800 euros tax free each month? I'd say less than 1% and the "saving" would probably not be enough to finance the red tape which was put in place to disincentive them.

    Also the idea of that universal income is that it is an integral part of your income (meaning companies will pay you less than they used to before the new model), so preventing some citizens from accessing it would probably pose legal and moral challenges.

    You can not only think of it as a new minimum income, it has an impact every aspect of the social model and the way wealth is redistributed within society.


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    #33
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Would it apply to people who are Irish and have companies here but don't pay tax as their money lives elsewhere. Do such people get child benefit? It would gall me particularlyif someone who is plenty rich whose money lives in Malta or another such haven got free money?


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    #34
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    melissak wrote: »
    Oh. I misunderstood it so. Then it only benefits companies and the well off at the expense of the worse off. Again status quo I suppose.. This may work in theory but the so called poor will only take so much.

    Not necessarily benefiting companies and the rich. The change would imply a complete review of the social model and while companies would benefit because they could give lower wages (topped up by that universal income), they would obviously have to give something on another front (for example taxation).

    It is probably missing many parameters but see my post here - in my example there is zero benefit for the company: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98041935&postcount=13


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    #35
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    making the 2 million workers queue every wednesday in their PO to receive their universal income would not be practical from anyone's perspective.
    It would harm businesses considerably.

    Surely they could queue every couple of months without much difficulty. If they are that important they don't need Government money. You could also say they are too busy to file tax returns but it wouldn't fly


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    #36
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    melissak wrote: »
    Would it apply to people who are Irish and have companies here but don't pay tax as their money lives elsewhere
    To receive social benefits you have to satisfy habitual residency tests.... so it would not apply to Irish people living abroad.
    Do such people get child benefit?
    Children's allowance is paid to children who love abroad.... so long as their parent is habitually resident in Ireland.


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    #37
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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    #38
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    To receive social benefits you have to satisfy habitual residency tests.... so it would not apply to Irish people living abroad.


    Children's allowance is paid to children who love abroad.... so long as their parent is habitually resident in Ireland.
    So people who live here but not enough to pay tax don't get it?


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    #39
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    melissak wrote: »
    So people who live here but not enough to pay tax don't get it?

    Once both parents are habitually abroad.... I don't think so.


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    #40
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    I suppose this is true and it would be complicated, it is just a bugbear of mine to see rich people benefiting twice from things like children. They get much bigger tax breaks due to their bigger incomes and then they get child benefit and all the other bonuses too.
    .What are they going to do with all the civil servants now employed in social welfare

    [quoob24;98042442"]What percentage of the population do you estimate wouldn't bother for an extra 800 euros tax free each month? I'd say less than 1% and the "saving" would probably not be enough to finance the red tape which was put in place to disincentive them.

    Also the idea of that universal income is that it is an integral part of your income (meaning companies will pay you less than they used to before the new model), so preventing some citizens from accessing it would probably pose legal and moral challenges.

    You can not only think of it as a new minimum income, it has an impact every aspect of the social model and the way wealth is redistributed within society.[/quote]


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    #41
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The article linked on the original post only mentions it would apply to Finnish citizens so these people might be in for a disappointment ;-)

    I think you are raising a very good point though:
    - If it is available to all residents (or even just all EU citizen residents), wouldn't there be a huge inflow of people trying to move to Finland to benefit from it?
    - And can they really restrict it to Finnish citizens only as I thought European Treaties are preventing member states from treating other EU citizens in a less favorable manner than their own citizens when it comes to social benefits?


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I've always thought a basic income was inevitable with the way things are going. Soon enough, none of us will have jobs :pac:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU


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    #43
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I had a whole thread on this. It doesn't work on the numbers.

    Negative income tax with a flat tax could certainly work, but one or two posters were obsessed with the idea that a small percentage of the people in this country who suck up the highest amount of welfare would be slightly worse off.

    :o

    It'd be a joke really if it wasn't so depressing.

    Well you'll always get one or two.

    Maybe put up a link and we can consider your thread as well.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #44
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    Bob24 wrote: »
    The article linked on the original post only mentions it would apply to Finnish citizens so these people might be in for a disappointment ;-)

    I think you are raising a very good point though:
    - If it is available to all residents (or even just all EU citizen residents), wouldn't there be a huge inflow of people trying to move to Finland to benefit from it?
    - And can they really restrict it to Finnish citizens only as I thought European Treaties are preventing member states from treating other EU citizens in a less favorable manner than their own citizens when it comes to social benefits?
    Can people who just move here get dol e. I thought you had to be here for a few years to get residency first. Is this just non eu people


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    #45
    melissak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,873 ✭✭✭melissak


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well you'll always get one or two.

    Maybe put up a link and we can consider your thread as well.

    Do you think people care about this because of the crime and social order implications of having a group or class of people without enough to live on. If we spend less on the carrot we would have to spend more on the stick


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    #46
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    melissak wrote: »
    Can people who just move here get dol e. I thought you had to be here for a few years to get residency first. Is this just non ex prople

    Not a specialist on the topic but I'd say the reason people who just moved here can't get the dole is that they don't have enough PRSI contributions?
    As long as the same rule on minimum required PRSI contributions applies to Irish nationals, everyone is treated equally.

    In the case of a universal income I am not sure it could be tight to having made previous contribution to the national social insurance fund.


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    #47
    OleRodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    McWilliams on disability claims:

    http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability


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    #48
    OleRodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've always thought a basic income was inevitable with the way things are going. Soon enough, none of us will have jobs :pac:

    Humans need not apply

    I think this will be the main driver, but it won't be feasible until there is an EU-wide policy, when there is greater economic and political integration.


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    #49
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    It would just be an extra 12euro per week. So yeah I'm all for it.


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    #50
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    It would just be an extra 12euro per week. So yeah I'm all for it.
    Stats?

    Show me the numbers, I don't believe you.


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    #51
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    I can't see this working unless we're taxed more.Tax is something us Irish are not so fond of.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    For those in employment, what would be the difference between this and tax credits? My understanding is I already am receiving a social welfare of sorts by getting exempt from tax by X amount of the tax credit. Is this correct?


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    #53
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    I can't see this working unless we're taxed more.Tax is something us Irish are not so fond of.

    When you see the state of healtcare, education, defense, infrastructure, public transport, housing and any other public service you care to mention it is painfully obvious that people here don't ask "what's the best option", but always ask "what's the cheapest option".

    Cheaping out on services aside, the argument for it working is not just based on social welfare expenditure vs cost of basic income, the idea behind it is "what are we spending maintaining and enforcing the current system" and that is here the whole thing falls down in Ireland (and Ireland only)
    We could get rid of entire departments of people rendered obsolete by this measure, as it costs a fraction to implement and maintain vs running the current system, which is very labor intensive.
    However, this is Ireland. The people made obsolete cannot be gotten rid of. They would have to be put in pretend offices, given pretend jobs and they will want extra money for all that pretend extra work.
    Some people say that may already have happened...


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    #54
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,145 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    melissak wrote: »
    Can people who just move here get dol e. I thought you had to be here for a few years to get residency first. Is this just non eu people


    JSB = based on PRSI conts

    JSA = dole = means-tested, but also subject to the Habitual Residency test

    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/1057_Jobseekers-Allowance.aspx


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    #55
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,145 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    For those in employment, what would be the difference between this and tax credits? My understanding is I already am receiving a social welfare of sorts by getting exempt from tax by X amount of the tax credit. Is this correct?

    Yes, a BI would replace tax credits, meaning all income would be taxed.

    [BI is not taxed]


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    #56
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    I had read about something like this (basic income) had been tried by one of the US Cities when it was in its economic heyday. The consequence was the internal migrant of large amount of people into that urban area: Detroit.


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    #57
    OleRodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Update on the Finnish project:

    http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/12/finland-basic-income-experiment-what-we-know/


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    #58
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Update on the Finnish project:

    http://www.basicincome.org/news/2015/12/finland-basic-income-experiment-what-we-know/

    interesting to see how the experiment goes.

    the income level it's pitched at is key.

    It's also interesting to see that the basic dole rate is 40%+ higher in Ireland.


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    #59
    OleRodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Utrecht also running a test project

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/26/dutch-city-utrecht-basic-income-uk-greens


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    #60
    Simon2015
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Simon2015


    It might work if the basic income was 100 Euro not 200 Euro for every adult in the country.


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    #61
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    Simon2015 wrote: »
    It might work if the basic income was 100 Euro not 200 Euro for every adult in the country.

    That idea would just put more people on the poverty list. What would be the point in implementing the Basic Income if that was the case. It's to keep people out of poverty not put more folk into poverty.


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