Replacing social welfare with a basic income

Dricmeister

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Everyone applies for legal aid though

No they don't.

The issue is that he's on social welfare but has enough spare cash to head off to Las Vegas for a 13 second fight.

An advert for vouchers rather than cash as social welfare...vouchers that can only be spent on food and clothes in discount stores.

Dricmeister

Dricmeister wrote: »

No they don't.

The issue is that he's on social welfare but has enough spare cash to head off to Las Vegas for a 13 second fight.

An advert for vouchers rather than cash as social welfare...vouchers that can only be spent on food and clothes in discount stores.

There's a chance that someone paid for his flights and accommodation you know.

Bob24

Alena Better Dachshund wrote: »

There's a chance that someone paid for his flights and accommodation you know.

In that particular case, what paid for flights and accommodation is most likely drug or stolen money ...

His latest exploits as mentioned earlier in the thread: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/legal-aid-applicant-went-to-las-vegas-for-mcgregor-fight-34325896.html

And previous ones (getting away from a conviction for possession of €17,000 worth of drugs due to a legal loophole, previous convictions for burglary, etc): http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/17-000-ecstasy-charge-dropped-after-legal-drugs-ruling-1.2137026

The biggest problem with that guy is not social welfare fraud but the fact that he is a low life criminal ... not something society should tolerate while sponsoring him if you ask me, but this is drifting away from the original topic.

Water John

Iv'e a lad down the road who drinks all his dole. What's the point about the Vegas guy?
Nothing really to do with BI.
Are you proposing a sort of social morality brigade to decide what people spend on?
That is the moral hazard argument used during the famine, that people should work for the basic survival necessities.
Not going back anywhere there.

K-9

BI isn't going to do much about cases like that though, nor is the current system as is.

I suppose the thing with legal aid is that people are entitled to to a legal defence, a core principle in law. As long as they satisfy the means test, the system doesn't really care if you had 10 holidays last year. How you could address that would be interesting.

Again, if people can afford trips to Vegas on welfare I'd say most of those have income on the side, because unless they are super frugal, I don't see how it can be done.

Extreme cases are extreme cases though. The guy who spends all his dole on drink is a wider problem than just the welfare he gets.

Anyway, the IMF said that they were disappointed at the lack of reform in SW. For me the system is geared towards the long term unemployed. Other countries have systems that give you more when you start claiming and gradually reduce it. Things like the Back to Education scheme or help for starting a business are all aimed at the LT unemployed with nothing really for those unemployed for less than a year or so.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

BI isn't going to do much about cases like that though, nor is the current system as is.

I suppose the thing with legal aid is that people are entitled to to a legal defence, a core principle in law. As long as they satisfy the means test, the system doesn't really care if you had 10 holidays last year. How you could address that would be interesting.

Again, if people can afford trips to Vegas on welfare I'd say most of those have income on the side, because unless they are super frugal, I don't see how it can be done.

Extreme cases are extreme cases though. The guy who spends all his dole on drink is a wider problem than just the welfare he gets.

Anyway, the IMF said that they were disappointed at the lack of reform in SW. For me the system is geared towards the long term unemployed. Other countries have systems that give you more when you start claiming and gradually reduce it. Things like the Back to Education scheme or help for starting a business are all aimed at the LT unemployed with nothing really for those unemployed for less than a year or so.

On the btea, I'm currently on that, but because my partner is off work sick, my payment was reduced. I have the heating allowance til May, but after that, I don't think I'll be able to finish the course with our present circumstances.
I'm trying not to worry about it, as this is my last year, but it makes me so angry that my payment can be reduced by enough that I might not be able to finish my course.
Btea should be 188 at least, non means tested. College students have many more expenses than people sitting on their ass all day.
BI would get rid of all these fears.

K-9

Yeah, BTE should be encouraged, mad that you get punished for your partner getting sick.

For me BI is a bit like the flat rate tax system, the cost would be prohibitive, plus they'd involve widespread reform to tax and SW.

It's very hard to convince people if they think they'll lose out. The one thing is we have a very high rate of social transfers anyway, despite common perception, so our system should be ideal for a BI.

But we are used to nearly 3 decades of tax cuts, with a correction over the last few years that was a shock to the system. People want tax cuts and money in their pockets, to waste as they see fit!

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, a lot of people don't exactly have money to waste, I know I don't. Direct taxes may be low in comparison (and I don't think thy are), but indirect taxation and the cost of absolutely everything in Ireland is higher than anywhere, so taking all that into account, Ireland would be right up there in the top 5 of most expensive countries in Europe, something we take almost perverse pleasure in.
Everything here is geared towards moneybags and fcuk the less well off and certainly the poor, the shower of bastards. Let bankers get away will costing us billions but begrudge some poor fcuker his beer and fag.

Sam Kade

Water John wrote: »

Iv'e a lad down the road who drinks all his dole. What's the point about the Vegas guy?
Nothing really to do with BI.
Are you proposing a sort of social morality brigade to decide what people spend on?
That is the moral hazard argument used during the famine, that people should work for the basic survival necessities.
Not going back anywhere there.

Really did he tell you this :rolleyes: I am totally amazed how people know about their neighbours finances.

Dricmeister

Sam Kade wrote: »

Really did he tell you this :rolleyes: I am totally amazed how people know about their neighbours finances.

I'd say it's quite easy...divide €188 by the number of pints you see him drinking in his local pub.

The point is that it's not his money he's spending...it's ours.

Quite simply, he should be prevented from spending it all on drink. If he can afford to do that, he doesn't need the dole and it should be taken from him.

Sam Kade

Dricmeister wrote: »

I'd say it's quite easy...divide €188 by the number of pints you see him drinking in his local pub.

The point is that it's not his money he's spending...it's ours.

Quite simply, he should be prevented from spending it all on drink. If he can afford to do that, he doesn't need the dole and it should be taken from him.

So you have to sit in the pub all day every day watching how many pints he drinks, yeah that would be real easy.

Water John

Obviously I'm not policing my neighbour in the pub and have no interest in doing so.
How you respond to the situation though, very much crystallizes your thinking.

I'm in favour of BI. Its tax implications need to be thought out thoroughly.
The core rule is, would it be better for society and the individual. would it lessen the disparity from the top and bottom. The more even a society, the more stable it is likely to be.

The overall personal tax take in Ireland, and I stand to be corrected, is not very high.
I also believe anything over about 70/80K in earnings is non productive in that the worker does not perform any better for money above that.

I would set personal earnings apart. If someone takes risks and builds up a business and reinvests all except their drawings of living expenses, I would keep a low tax on company business profits. It would yield jobs for the greater common good.

newacc2015

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, a lot of people don't exactly have money to waste, I know I don't. Direct taxes may be low in comparison (and I don't think thy are), but indirect taxation and the cost of absolutely everything in Ireland is higher than anywhere, so taking all that into account, Ireland would be right up there in the top 5 of most expensive countries in Europe, something we take almost perverse pleasure in.
Everything here is geared towards moneybags and fcuk the less well off and certainly the poor, the shower of bastards. Let bankers get away will costing us billions but begrudge some poor fcuker his beer and fag.

I hate this argument about taxes. Have you ever lived abroad? Tell me how our direct taxes are too high? We have the most progressive or the second most progressive direct tax system in the world according to the OECD. If you earn €1600 in Germany. You have about €1150 left after they take income tax, social welfare contributions and compulsory health insurance. Electricity is more expensive in Germany. Renting in some cities is as expensive as renting in Dublin. Food and cheap is marginally cheaper. Since you are a low income earner, your welfare and pension will be substantially lower than a higher income earner, as your German pension is dependent on contribution and not stamps.

Whereas you earn can the same amount in Ireland can get €1460 per month after tax. You get the same social welfare as a millionaire. If someone works hard for their entire life in Ireland. They are not rewarded by the Irish social welfare system ie pension. If someone was earning €100,000 in 2007. They only paid PRSI up to €75000 or €85000. Now they have to pay it on the full amount. In places like NYC or Boston, middle income earners have access to affordable housing. In Ireland it is only for people on welfare or rather low incomes.

The whole idea that the entire taxation system and health care system benefits only the rich is utter BS. If anything it benefits the people who contribute the least in society.

Bongalongherb

I'm very surprised to see that this is turning into a dole bashing thread on the Irish Economy forum especially.

Watching how many pints of beer a neighbour is drinking and calculating the cost is a very odd thing to be doing, leave the man in peace I'd say. It would be nice to get back on topic regarding this Basic Income question. It will be implemented eventually in the near future I hope.

K-9

Mod:

Given the night that was in it, I went easy on a couple of people here.

Enough Over the top posts, don't reply in kind either as that just encourages more of the same.

Also, just posting about the guy on the dole who drinks all his SW money is just an anecdote, try and add some actual content or point of view to discuss. Thank you.

dr.fuzzenstein

newacc2015 wrote: »

I hate this argument about taxes. Have you ever lived abroad? Tell me how our direct taxes are too high? We have the most progressive or the second most progressive direct tax system in the world according to the OECD. If you earn €1600 in Germany. You have about €1150 left after they take income tax, social welfare contributions and compulsory health insurance. Electricity is more expensive in Germany. Renting in some cities is as expensive as renting in Dublin. Food and cheap is marginally cheaper. Since you are a low income earner, your welfare and pension will be substantially lower than a higher income earner, as your German pension is dependent on contribution and not stamps.

Whereas you earn can the same amount in Ireland can get €1460 per month after tax. You get the same social welfare as a millionaire. If someone works hard for their entire life in Ireland. They are not rewarded by the Irish social welfare system ie pension. If someone was earning €100,000 in 2007. They only paid PRSI up to €75000 or €85000. Now they have to pay it on the full amount. In places like NYC or Boston, middle income earners have access to affordable housing. In Ireland it is only for people on welfare or rather low incomes.

The whole idea that the entire taxation system and health care system benefits only the rich is utter BS. If anything it benefits the people who contribute the least in society.

If you re-read my post you will notice I never said that. Direct taxation is kept at tolerable levels, but indirect taxation is massive here, just compare VAT rates.

Water John

Renua seem to be advocating the opposite to BI.
What finance will run the country?
Everybody favours low tax on themselves, in a simple way. However, there has to be a balance, services have to be paid for.
I personnally don't want a less caring society, a la USA.

It is now we will see the distinct policies of the different, especially smaller parties.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If you re-read my post you will notice I never said that. Direct taxation is kept at tolerable levels, but indirect taxation is massive here, just compare VAT rates.

Apart from VAT, DIRT is also utter theft in this country.

newacc2015

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Apart from VAT, DIRT is also utter theft in this country.

Have you ever seen what VAT is applied to?Most Food, children clothes, books are VAT exempt which have 9% VAT in Germany. VAT appears to be high in Ireland, as it has such a low base. But if you look at the different rates and what it is applied to. VAT isnt that high in Ireland. It is generally only on what most would consider "luxury goods" like Alcohol, processed foods, electronics. Where as in Germany it is applied to pretty much everything. Most indirect taxes paid by low income individuals is on alcohol and cigarettes.

DIRT is high as the Government wants to disincentive savings to stimulate the economy. It was low during the boom, as the Government wanted to encourage saving. Have you ever seen a report on Irish taxation? It is quite progressive according to the OECD

How will basic income deal with long term unemployed? Germany had serious issues with decreasing its massive amount of LTU in the early 2000s and used welfare cuts to get people back into the workforce. How will you get people back into the workforce with a guaranteed basic income? I cant imagine a flat basic income for someone recently unemployed and someone employed for several years will be very effective

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Apart from VAT, DIRT is also utter theft in this country.

And adding motor tax to the list.

Bob24

newacc2015 wrote: »

DIRT is high as the Government wants to disincentive savings to stimulate the economy. It was low during the boom, as the Government wanted to encourage saving.

Because there might be a policy justification behind it* doesn't mean people are not allowed to think 41% taxation on all interests is unreasonably high. At a time when people are told they will need larger deposits to purchase property (amongst other things), you have to understand some are annoyed for the government to be hitting their savings at the same time.



* while I agree the government has been trying to encourage consumption with this, another more trivial reason was that they had to find money somewhere to go through a tough financial period and DIRT was increased like most other taxes (including VAT which would have the opposite effect and discourage consumption).

newacc2015

newacc2015 wrote: »

Have you ever seen what VAT is applied to?Most Food, children clothes, books are VAT exempt which have 9% VAT in Germany. VAT appears to be high in Ireland, as it has such a low base. But if you look at the different rates and what it is applied to. VAT isnt that high in Ireland. It is generally only on what most would consider "luxury goods" like Alcohol, processed foods, electronics. Where as in Germany it is applied to pretty much everything. Most indirect taxes paid by low income individuals is on alcohol and cigarettes.

"Luxury goods" like tampons too. And of course the low income spend all their money on alcohol and cigarettes :rolleyes:

Of course food is not VAT exempt either, but you just claim it's on "processed foods".

DIRT is high as the Government wants to disincentive savings to stimulate the economy. It was low during the boom, as the Government wanted to encourage saving. Have you ever seen a report on Irish taxation? It is quite progressive according to the OECD

If the govt want to disincentive savings, BI is a great way to start as people will spend more knowing there's a safety net there.

How will basic income deal with long term unemployed? Germany had serious issues with decreasing its massive amount of LTU in the early 2000s and used welfare cuts to get people back into the workforce. How will you get people back into the workforce with a guaranteed basic income? I cant imagine a flat basic income for someone recently unemployed and someone employed for several years will be very effective

A: Honestly, what does it matter to you? If we're all earning the basic same anyway?
B: At the height of the boom, we had 4.3% unemployment IIRC. Some people don't want to work, don't even want to contribute to society. These are a VERY small minority, don't pay attention to the Daily Mail on this, they are a very small part of the problem.
I know a lot of unemployed people. They volunteer at homework clubs, community gardens, resource centres, that sort of thing. They give back, but because they don't receive "a wage" we devalue their work. That's not right if you ask me.
BI won't cure all of society's faults. But it also won't be the reason people all over the country jack in their jobs. Some people, (parents especially) will opt to work shorter hours, which will free up space for unemployed to work part time.

And of course, a huge bonus for BI, is that you won't have people having to weep in the social welfare, begging for what they're (And I'm sure you hate the word, but it is the true word) entitled to.

K-9

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, a lot of people don't exactly have money to waste, I know I don't. Direct taxes may be low in comparison (and I don't think thy are), but indirect taxation and the cost of absolutely everything in Ireland is higher than anywhere, so taking all that into account, Ireland would be right up there in the top 5 of most expensive countries in Europe, something we take almost perverse pleasure in.
Everything here is geared towards moneybags and fcuk the less well off and certainly the poor, the shower of bastards. Let bankers get away will costing us billions but begrudge some poor fcuker his beer and fag.

Ah, it was more a general point at the system, not you in particular obviously!

We do have low Income tax and especially PRSI, though the USC does address that to an extent, but there'll be a mad scramble by politicians to scrap that with the election coming up.

Our system is aimed at the lower paid paying as little tax as possible, no PRSI at all, or very little, and some USC. The problem with USC is it is a tax, not National Insurance, makes it far too easy to scrap for politicians and the electorate.

My problem is we seem to have learned nothing from the bubble years. Cut income taxes, give people a few pounds in the pocket and let them spend, then we'll get more VAT, stamp duty etc. Spend, spend, spend. What can possibly go wrong?

Agree with you on indirect taxes, but as above, one is linked with the other.

Our expenditure by a mile is on SW and pensions, politicians need tax revenue to finance that. Corporation tax isn't going to go too far on that, even with record receipts. Add Income tax and I doubt it would even cover those bills.

newacc2015

Alena Better Dachshund wrote: »

"Luxury goods" like tampons too. And of course the low income spend all their money on alcohol and cigarettes :rolleyes:

Of course food is not VAT exempt either, but you just claim it's on "processed foods".


If the govt want to disincentive savings, BI is a great way to start as people will spend more knowing there's a safety net there.



A: Honestly, what does it matter to you? If we're all earning the basic same anyway?
B: At the height of the boom, we had 4.3% unemployment IIRC. Some people don't want to work, don't even want to contribute to society. These are a VERY small minority, don't pay attention to the Daily Mail on this, they are a very small part of the problem.
I know a lot of unemployed people. They volunteer at homework clubs, community gardens, resource centres, that sort of thing. They give back, but because they don't receive "a wage" we devalue their work. That's not right if you ask me.
BI won't cure all of society's faults. But it also won't be the reason people all over the country jack in their jobs. Some people, (parents especially) will opt to work shorter hours, which will free up space for unemployed to work part time.

And of course, a huge bonus for BI, is that you won't have people having to weep in the social welfare, begging for what they're (And I'm sure you hate the word, but it is the true word) entitled to.

"The Zero rate of VAT applies to the supply of most foodstuffs, such as bread, butter, cheese, cereals, condiments, flour, fruit, herbs, meat, milk, pasta, pastes, sauces, soup, spices, sugar, and vegetables (fresh or frozen). This list is by no means exhaustive." Revenue.ie

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/food-and-drink.html

The unemployment stats excludes the tens of thousands of people who were on unemployment benefit who were reclassified as on "disability benefit". The OECD have said there is an alarming trend of long term unemployed being reclassified as on "disability benefit". Long term unemployed stats dont seem so bad, as Goverments have just reclassified them as people on disability. This is Daily Mail BS, but the OECDs opinion.

BI wont address the fact the middle income workers are squeezed in this country. They worked and pay taxes. Yet they dont have free or affordable health care like low income individuals. They dont get cheap housing like low income individuals. BI doesnt address that a majority of workers in this country are carrying the economy and getting very little in return from the Government. BI is a nice distraction for the Government, when if they wanted to improve the lives of millions they should make housing and healthcare more affordable for middle class families.

newacc2015

newacc2015 wrote: »

"The Zero rate of VAT applies to the supply of most foodstuffs, such as bread, butter, cheese, cereals, condiments, flour, fruit, herbs, meat, milk, pasta, pastes, sauces, soup, spices, sugar, and vegetables (fresh or frozen). This list is by no means exhaustive." Revenue.ie

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/food-and-drink.html

Point taken on vegetables, but another "luxury item" from that page is: bottled drinking water. I'm sure people who can't drink their own tap water see bottled drinking water as a luxury.

The unemployment stats excludes the tens of thousands of people who were on unemployment benefit who were reclassified as on "disability benefit". The OECD have said there is an alarming trend of long term unemployed being reclassified as on "disability benefit". Long term unemployed stats dont seem so bad, as Goverments have just reclassified them as people on disability. This is Daily Mail BS, but the OECDs opinion.

I just don't believe this. As someone who was on disability benefit, it's an incredibly hard way of life, dealing with SW doctors. But again, those on disability would receive BI without having to jump through hoops for a state medical practitioner

BI wont address the fact the middle income workers are squeezed in this country. They worked and pay taxes. Yet they dont have free or affordable health care like low income individuals. They dont get cheap housing like low income individuals. BI doesnt address that a majority of workers in this country are carrying the economy and getting very little in return from the Government. BI is a nice distraction for the Government, when if they wanted to improve the lives of millions they should make housing and healthcare more affordable for middle class families.

We don't live in a middle society. No matter how the political classes want to spin it. We live in a society of the haves and the have nots. BI will enable middle income worker parents to decide whether the cost of childcare (not just the monetary cost) is worth it to their family. Mothers or fathers can decide to go down to part time in their jobs should they want to.
BI will empower more individuals to take risks and start their own companies and bolster the entrepreneurial spirit that is in Ireland.

And fwiw, healthcare should be absolutely more affordable, as should housing. Instead of saying that BI is a nice distraction, or it won't answer all problems, we should look at the inherit systems of why hospitals don't use non-branded generic drugs? Why are there so many houses empty in Ireland. There is no shortage of houses, no more than there ever was anyway, but people aren't/can't rent or sell them for one reason or another?

Why are there so many empty business buildings in Dublin, when start ups are crying out for the chance to get a shop?

None of these have anything to do with BI, so let us focus the argument on BI.

Nothing that has been said has changed my mind that BI is the way forward. Once we have a safety net, we can take more risks and become a better society instead.

K-9

Do the majority pay though?

The problem with statistics is people skew them to read what they want!

880,000 of income earners pay no tax at all. Seems pretty damning but just over half of earners, 1.2 million people, earn less than 30k. Vincent Browne raises this issue, and it gets dismissed, because well it's VB, but you can't just forget about it and hope it goes away.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2014/12/06/the-distribution-of-income-in-ireland/

The likes of CORI and the Nerin Institute point out VAT effects these people disproportionately. Dismiss it with talk about drink and fags, but petrol, diesel, clothes, shoes etc. Plus good luck with figuring out what is a luxury item for VAT, Jaffa cakes, a biscuit or a cake, the perfect example!

It's very difficult to get an unbiased piece, Fintan O'Toole will argue the populist view and this one is the other side:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/analysis/kieran-coughlan-shocking-reality-is-ireland-has-a-progressive-income-tax-system-322912.html

Raises valid points though.

19% of tax payers pay the high rate. Makes sense when you read the income stats above.
Those earning over 50k pay 82% of the income tax take.

Despite the above we still have very high social transfers, one of the highest in Europe or the OECD.

Over 1.1 million people receive SW or pensions, yet over 1.2 million income earners pay no IT. Then you've income supplements like FIS, and Child Benefit which costs a fair whack, despite cuts.

So, everybody thinks they pay too much tax, don't get enough from the Government back, yet there's a big imbalance in these figures. Doesn't matter how many times I raise these figures, people will ignore them and choose to believe whatever they've been brought up to believe, or read somewhere.

As the examiner article notes, we've ridiculously low PRSI rates, but ask people who pay it, "I pay far too much, don't get anything for it".

In short, everybody thinks they pay too much tax, don't get anything for it.

dr.fuzzenstein

newacc2015 wrote: »

"The Zero rate of VAT applies to the supply of most foodstuffs, such as bread, butter, cheese, cereals, condiments, flour, fruit, herbs, meat, milk, pasta, pastes, sauces, soup, spices, sugar, and vegetables (fresh or frozen). This list is by no means exhaustive." Revenue.ie

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/food-and-drink.html

Isn't it amazing how all that stuff costs significantly more here even with zero VAT applied than, for example, Germany and yet they have 7% reduced VAT for those items? That means that the basic price of necessities without tax is more expensive by quite a margin here than the same things things even including tax elsewhere.
Anyone who is blinded by this "progressive tax" malarkey obviously hasn't lived in a country where necessities are affordable and the state actually returns some services and infrastructure for the tax it receives. Its no use just looking at what's left in the paypacket after tax.

K-9

Well it isn't progressive if half the income earners pay little or no income tax or PRSI.

Take it literally, you're progressing from a large base of zero, so of course the system is progressive!

The cost base is high because people are basically told by the tax system to spend. Tax isn't the only reason for the cost base though, well worth its own thread to analyse that more deeply.

Still though, when Government policy for decades is cut taxes for people, and spend, spend, spend, what else are you going to get?

dr.fuzzenstein

K-9 wrote: »

Well it isn't progressive if half the income earners pay little or no income tax or PRSI.

Take it literally, you're progressing from a large base of zero, so of course the system is progressive!

The cost base is high because people are basically told by the tax system to spend. Tax isn't the only reason for the cost base though, well worth its own thread to analyse that more deeply.

Still though, when Government policy for decades is cut taxes for people, and spend, spend, spend, what else are you going to get?

Consumerism is rampant in this country. I am amazed when I go back to Germany, the age of everything over there. Cars, TV's, washing machines, furniture, phones, computers, you name it. People hold on to that stuff much longer and if they buy something new, they give it to someone who can still get some use out of it. I remember 25 years ago I moved into a house I rented and I furnished the entire thing for free! Got beds, wardrobes, sofa, dresser and even a TV. Try that here!
Mind you, German insurance companies are not running a campaign to eradicate all cars over 10 years old (fcuking stupid), I went online and tried to see how much insurance for a nearly 20 year old 2.5 liter petrol BMW would be for me in Germany: Less than €500. None of that "Ah Jaysis, we wouldn't be insuren dem old deathtraps now, so we wouldn't, ah, t'will cosht you big time now, be lucky if you got a quote, dat'll be 5 grand now!"
The idea here is that everything new and shiny is brilliant and as soon as it's 5 years old, it's old, it's sh*te and has to be thrown away. Not that anyone would want it, because they want the newest, latest, shiny, plastic-fantastic gizmo. Plus the fact that retailers here are still taking advantage of the fact that we are an island (if you don't like it, you can fcuk off, but where you gonna go, huh?), but also because indigenous businesses get absolutely raped by the state with taxes and rates* so I don't entirely blame them.
The entire tax system here is upside down. This stupid, idiotic idea by FG/Labour (or anyone) to make income tax a holy cow and to just hike indirect taxation and introduce a property tax and water charges (I'm actually not against these, but they were used wrong) and to insult our intelligence by saying those would be more equitable! So they left a tax alone that is directly related to your income, then introduced charges that hit everybody, regardless of ability to pay, and worst of all, punished people for owning houses they couldn't afford and couldn't sell. I honestly believe that whoever came up with that would be incapable to organise an occasion of merriment in a facility that produced alcoholic beverages. But it has always been thus, cut income tax and levy or hike secondary taxes and charges. We seem to have a new tax or levy each week here. Maybe the problem is also the state paying out a big percentage of tax take to service debt, so more has to be taken in. And the galling thing is, that money can't be used to provide anything for the citizens, so more taxes are needed.
One can only hope that the government will have the foresight to pay off as much as they can, while they can and future generations will thank them for it. But I guess it will be more "fcuk future generations, today belongs to us!" and cut income tax and spend, spend, spend! Nothing really new and radical will ever happen in this country, it is too small, small-minded, crony-ist, conservative, cautious and scared of anything new and innovative to really to anything out of the ordinary.

*
Business top tip: If you want to run a business in Ireland, you have to found a company abroad and tell the Irish government you want to invest here. That way you will get incentives, tax breaks, grants and whatnot. Start up as a home grown Irish business and you will be hit with everything.

K-9

I've made the same point before about this sham promise by FG to not raise Income taxes, Labour the same with no Welfare cuts. All that was was electioneering, both had to have something to point out to the electorate 5 years later. Labour had to bring in changes and cuts, like the Back to Education scheme mentioned earlier, so that they have this headline for an election. They'll get pummelled anyway.

Property and water taxes should have been in 10 years ago, now people are rightly pissed off in a recession paying those, USC and yes, increased Ibcome Tax. They kept tax credits the same the last 5 yeay, so people are paying more, hope people remember that when they see that line about no tax raises in the election literature.