Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

TheChizler · 21-11-2015 1:29pm

The current supply is a matter between you and Irish Water, I don't see how the management company could cut you off.

OfTheMarsWongs · 11-12-2015 4:00pm

Looking for a bit of advice on an Irish Water billing/metering issue. Don't want to post on their Talk To forum

Got my first bill last year and the metered usage came out at about €240 (for 3 months, 1 year would be €1,000). Living in the house on my own and out of the house for most of the day. Got a letter then from them regarding a possible leak. Their tech came out and said it wasn't at the meter, they turned off the stop cock in the house and ascertained that there wasn't a leak between the meter and stop cock. Told me it must be in the house.

I have had a plumber look all around the house and he has said there is no leak. No leaky tanks, no damp spots, no smell of stagnant water from under floor boards.

Was even away for 2 weeks at one point with no one in the house and the 3 month usage came back at roughly the same as the previous 3 months.

Anybody have any advise on where I can take this further? I know it's capped now but not happy to let this go till metered usage comes in. Thinking the meter itself maybe faulty.

Mods, if there's a more appropriate forum, please feel free to move.

Thanks

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 11-12-2015 4:02pm

Read the meter last thing at night, run no water, and check usage in the morning.

my3cents · 11-12-2015 4:04pm

The only really obvious thing I can think of its that your meter is actually supplying more than just your house.

OfTheMarsWongs · 11-12-2015 4:05pm

Brandon Green Schoolyard wrote: »

Read the meter last thing at night, run no water, and check usage in the morning.

I've tried that. Flushed the loo/brushed teeth (as in used all the water I was going to use for the night) and waited about an hour for the tank to fill again then read the meter. Read it next morning and it said I'd used like 300 litres overnight.

OfTheMarsWongs · 11-12-2015 4:06pm

my3cents wrote: »

The only really obvious thing I can think of its that your meter is actually supplying more than just your house.

I thought of that. It's in an estate, straight line of houses. Neighbours both sides are getting regular usage. Below the cap even.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 11-12-2015 4:06pm

OfTheMarsWongs wrote: »

I've tried that. Flushed the loo/brushed teeth (as in used all the water I was going to use for the night) and waited about an hour for the tank to fill again then read the meter. Read it next morning and it said I'd used like 300 litres overnight.

Then, unless your meter point is supplying another premises as well, you have a leak.

Use the Talk to... forum.

L1011 · 11-12-2015 4:08pm

Do as Srameen suggests, then repeat the next night with your internal stopcock turned off if it shows usage.

If you're getting usage shown when you use nothing, there's (probably, meters can be faulty but its not that common and would usually show a vastly higher over-read) a leak somewhere

If that stops when your internal stopcock is off, the leak is in the house
If it doesn't, its between you and the meter

edit - took a long time to hit reply, so this post is a bit out of date. Try the night with the stopcock off.

OfTheMarsWongs · 11-12-2015 4:09pm

Brandon Green Schoolyard wrote: »

Then, unless your meter point is supplying another premises as well, you have a leak.

Use the Talk to... forum.

Irish Water have said there's no leak between the meter and the house. The plumber has said there's no leak in the house. Is it possible it's a faulty meter?

Valetta · 11-12-2015 4:13pm

I would badger IW persistently until they get to the bottom of the problem.

It is obvious there is something wrong, so I would put the onus on them to sort it out.

It could be something as simple as a faulty meter.

fxotoole · 11-12-2015 4:29pm

Maybe there's a problem with the stopcock in your attic tank, causing the attic tank to overflow, and causing a constant inflow of water to your attic tank?

OfTheMarsWongs · 11-12-2015 4:48pm

fxotoole wrote: »

Maybe there's a problem with the stopcock in your attic tank, causing the attic tank to overflow, and causing a constant inflow of water to your attic tank?

I don't know. There's nothing coming out of the over flow pipe that sticks out under the fascia.

Might get a second plumber in to have another look before I go at it again with Irish Water.

jrby · 11-12-2015 5:02pm

a separate but related question, I got my first metered bill today for €45 for the last tree months (after the allowance), average house 2 adults plus three kids - this this high, low or average?

my3cents · 11-12-2015 5:05pm

OP are you sure that when IW switched the water off in the street that your supply was actually cut off so you got no water indoors.

First check is that the meter you are looking at no matter how obvious it may seem to you is actually your meter.

dudara · 11-12-2015 6:34pm

Post split out and moved to new thread in Accomodation & Property

dudara

dudara · 11-12-2015 6:36pm

Moved to Accomodation & Property

dudara

Duvetdays · 11-12-2015 7:43pm

Turn the water off at the meter and ask your neighbors to check if they still have running water. Then you'll know if you're meter is supplying any of their houses.

bigroad · 11-12-2015 7:53pm

Would it be possible that your meter is fitted on the main waterline.
Check your meter reading and then use 10 liters from your tap and go back to check the reading.

my3cents · 11-12-2015 7:59pm

bigroad wrote: »

Would it be possible that your meter is fitted on the main waterline.
Check your meter reading and then use 10 liters from your tap and go back to check the reading.

Another possible is that one meter is feeding the OP's house AND one or more other meters.

Victor · 11-12-2015 8:55pm

If I'm correct: http://www.water.ie/billing-and-charges/charges/

€45 @ €3.70 / 1,000 liters

=> 12,162 litres.

12,162 litres / 90 days = 135 litres / day.

That seems to be quite modest for two people. How much of an allowance are you getting?

dudara · 12-12-2015 9:29am

We have been charged €21 - €24 for each of the last three billing cycles. That's for two people in a house. From what I've heard, that appears to be at the low end of the spectrum.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 12-12-2015 9:38am

dudara wrote: »

We have been charged €21 - €24 for each of the last three billing cycles. That's for two people in a house. From what I've heard, that appears to be at the low end of the spectrum.

That seems very low. What's your secret?

kkelly77 · 12-12-2015 1:17pm

My brother has been in his rented apt for about 2 yrs. His LL has been onto him twice about 2 bills he has received from IW and is now advising my brother is liable. This is what IW had told his LL. :eek:

My brother never received an application from IW and as such has never signed up to the utility. His LL must have signed up (without advising my brother and to get his free €100) and seems to think that he can now ask my brother for money, effectively acting as an agent/debt collector for IW.

The bill is obviously in the LL's name and is being posted to his home address.

How can my brother be liable? Obviously the LL does NOT live at the rental address.

The Water Services Act 2013 states -

The Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 provides that the ‘customer’ is the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water services are provided

12-12-2015 1:39pm

kkelly77 wrote: »

My brother has been in his rented apt for about 2 yrs. His LL has been onto him twice about 2 bills he has received from IW and is now advising my brother is liable. This is what IW had told his LL. :eek:

My brother never received an application from IW and as such has never signed up to the utility. His LL must have signed up (without advising my brother and to get his free €100) and seems to think that he can now ask my brother for money, effectively acting as an agent/debt collector for IW.

The bill is obviously in the LL's name and is being posted to his home address.

How can my brother be liable? Obviously the LL does NOT live at the rental address.

The Water Services Act 2013 states -

"Quote:
The Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 provides that the ‘customer’ is the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water services are provided"

You gave the answer yourself in the quote. As the occupier, the tenant is the customer.

kkelly77 · 12-12-2015 3:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

"Quote:
The Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 provides that the ‘customer’ is the occupier of the premises in respect of which the water services are provided"

You gave the answer yourself in the quote. As the occupier, the tenant is the customer.

That would be my understanding of the situation. I'm just astounded that that my brother's LL and other LL's are ignorant of who is liable and also think they can start demanding money from people. Unfortunately there will be some tenants who will pay too, as they will be just as ignorant (and intimidated by scary letters, potential loss of deposits or possible evictions as a result).

All the while IW sit back and let their "proxy agents" perform the debt collection on bills people aren't even liable for. :mad:

12-12-2015 3:33pm

kkelly77 wrote: »

That would be my understanding of the situation. I'm just astounded that that my brother's LL and others are ignorant of who is liable and also that they think they can start demanding money from people. Unfortunately there will be some who will pay too, as they will be just as ignorant.

All the while IW sit back and let their "proxy agents" perform the debt collection on bills people aren't even liable for. :mad:

But, he IS liable for it. If he is using the water, then it's his bill to pay. It's up to him to make sure that HE is registered, so HE gets the conservation grant.

kkelly77 · 12-12-2015 3:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But, he IS liable for it. If he is using the water, then it's his bill to pay. It's up to him to make sure that HE is registered, so HE gets the conservation grant.

I understand what you are saying. My point is that he is not liable for the bills his LL is receiving.

TheChizler · 12-12-2015 7:09pm

kkelly77 wrote: »

I understand what you are saying. My point is that he is not liable for the bills his LL is receiving.

Put it another way: some landlords insist on paying other utilities and tenants pay them back. I imagine the same rules apply but for many that's an acceptable situation, normally agreed on when they move in.

Bob24 · 13-12-2015 11:17am

kkelly77 wrote: »

I understand what you are saying. My point is that he is not liable for the bills his LL is receiving.

Indeed he is not liable for these specific bills as they are under someone else's name. But how do you see the situation going forward?

Your brother needs to agree with the landlord whether he wants to pay the bill directly to IW, pay each bill indirectly through the landlord, or have the cost built into the rent at a price everyone agrees on.

Currently he is effectively holding the LL hostage and forcing him to pay the water bill by not registering even though he is the actual customer using the service. If there is no agreement the landlord has an argument to call Irish Water and tell them to disconnect the premises from the water network as he doesn't have any use for the service and there is no other party interested in paying the bills. He likely won't do that as it would too much trouble for everyone, but you can be sure when the time comes for a rent review he will request an extra increase both to recover what he had to pay previously and provision more than enough to cover it in the future. Playing these games is never good in the long term.

ezra_pound · 13-12-2015 1:54pm

kkelly77 wrote: »

That would be my understanding of the situation. I'm just astounded that that my brother's LL and other LL's are ignorant of who is liable and also think they can start demanding money from people. Unfortunately there will be some tenants who will pay too, as they will be just as ignorant (and intimidated by scary letters, potential loss of deposits or possible evictions as a result).

All the while IW sit back and let their "proxy agents" perform the debt collection on bills people aren't even liable for. :mad:

Because it's the law. Landlords must comply with the law the same as everyone else.

ezra_pound · 13-12-2015 2:06pm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/29/section/47/enacted/en/html#part10Water charges

Section 47 of the water services no. 2 act 2015 provides:

47. The Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 is amended by inserting the following section after section 23:

“Registration with Irish Water

23A. (1) Where water services are provided to a dwelling by Irish Water, the owner of the dwelling shall, subject to subsections (2) and (3) —

(a) register with Irish Water as a customer and confirm whether or not the dwelling is his or her principal private residence, or

(b) notify Irish Water, in writing or in such other form and manner as Irish Water may specify, that he or she is not the occupier of the dwelling and provide—

(i) the date of commencement of any agreement for the occupation of the dwelling, and

(ii) the name of each person with whom the owner has such an agreement for the occupation of the dwelling,

not later than—

(I) 20 working days after the coming into operation of section 47 of the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015, and

(II) where there is a change in the occupation of the dwelling after the coming into operation of section 47 of the Environment (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015, 20 working days after such a change.

ezra_pound · 13-12-2015 2:10pm

Section 47 (4) of the same act provides:

(4) Notwithstanding section 21(5) and subsection (5) of this section, where the owner of a dwelling fails to comply with subsection (1)(b), the owner shall pay to Irish Water any charge under section 21 in respect of the dwelling for the period from the date of commencement of the agreement for the occupation of the dwelling until the date on which the owner so complies.

runawaybishop · 13-12-2015 3:12pm

kkelly77 wrote: »

I understand what you are saying. My point is that he is not liable for the bills his LL is receiving.

Why not? He used the water, right? Tenants are liable for utility charges in the vast majority of leases anyway

ezra_pound · 13-12-2015 3:39pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Why not? He used the water, right? Tenants are liable for utility charges in the vast majority of leases anyway

Statutory provisions under the environment acts provide that the landlord IS liable if he does not provide Irish water with the tenant's details up to the point where he complies with such requirement.

If he/she provides this information within 20 days of the tenancy commencing then the tenant is liable from the date of the tenancy commencing.

Edit: if the landlord is receiving these bills then one can presume that he is registered, and has not informed Irish water of the tenant's details, meaning that he is still liable.

runawaybishop · 13-12-2015 3:50pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Statutory provisions under the environment acts provide that the landlord IS liable if he does not provide Irish water with the tenant's details up to the point where he complies with such requirement.

If he/she provides this information within 20 days of the tenancy commencing then the tenant is liable from the date of the tenancy commencing.

Edit: if the landlord is receiving these bills then one can presume that he is registered, and has not informed Irish water of the tenant's details, meaning that he is still liable.

Tenant used the water, tenant is liable, unless of course tenant is happy enough finding somewhere new to live. Not paying utilities is usually a breech of lease terms and results in a notice of eviction.

pablo128 · 13-12-2015 6:10pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Tenant used the water, tenant is liable, unless of course tenant is happy enough finding somewhere new to live. Not paying utilities is usually a breech of lease terms and results in a notice of eviction.

If the tenant is liable and pays the LLs bill, will the LL hand over the hundred euro <MOD SNIP > he will have claimed? I doubt it somehow.

Bob24 · 13-12-2015 6:26pm

pablo128 wrote: »

If the tenant is liable and pays the LLs bill, will the LL hand over the hundred euro <MOD SNIP > he will have claimed? I doubt it somehow.

If your 100 euro figure refers to the water conservation grant, keep in mind it can only be claimed for a person's primary residence. So in this case the landlord can't claim it and is paying the full bill (if a tenant/landlord have a good relationship, it is usually in both parties' interest to have the tenant pay the bill directly -and claim the grant - rather than the landlord acting as a proxy and not being able to claim the grant).

runawaybishop · 13-12-2015 7:30pm

pablo128 wrote: »

If the tenant is liable and pays the LLs bill, will the LL hand over the hundred euro <MOD SNIP > he will have claimed? I doubt it somehow.

No, the ll can't claim it. If the tenant wanted it he should have registered before the deadline.

jrby · 14-12-2015 9:43am

Victor wrote: »

If I'm correct: http://www.water.ie/billing-and-charges/charges/

€45 @ €3.70 / 1,000 liters

=> 12,162 litres.

12,162 litres / 90 days = 135 litres / day.

That seems to be quite modest for two people. How much of an allowance are you getting?

hi, we've two adults and three kids so i'm guessing we're getting the allowance for that....

tina1040 · 14-12-2015 1:50pm

A tenant doesn't have to actually register himself with IW. The LL can notify IW of the tenant's name and this means the LL is no longer liable even if the tenant doesn't pay.

Sunny Dayz · 14-12-2015 2:12pm

Does anyone know if IW actually send reminders or chase up bills? My bill was due 9/11/15 and I genuinely forgot about it until the start of this month. I then realised that I had not got one reminder from IW. So I just took my time with it and paid it at my leisure over the weekend, the obviously weren't in a panic looking for it. If that was any other utility or service provider I would have gotten a reminder email, letter or a phone call.

Bob24 · 14-12-2015 2:18pm

Sunny Dayz wrote: »

Does anyone know if IW actually send reminders or chase up bills? My bill was due 9/11/15 and I genuinely forgot about it until the start of this month. I then realised that I had not got one reminder from IW. So I just took my time with it and paid it at my leisure over the weekend, the obviously weren't in a panic looking for it. If that was any other utility or service provider I would have gotten a reminder email, letter or a phone call.

My answer in one word: elections

Given how difficult it was for the government to put the protests at rest, I suspect IW has been told to keep quiet until the next elections and that running expenses will be covered by other means if people are not paying.

I expect reminders and collection letters start arriving in a few months time.

runawaybishop · 14-12-2015 2:29pm

Bob24 wrote: »

My answer in one word: elections

Given how difficult it was for the government to put the protests at rest, I suspect IW has been told to keep quiet until the next elections and that running expenses will be covered by other means if people are not paying.

I expect reminders and collection letters start arriving in a few months time.

I got a reminder last week.

EGavigan · 19-12-2015 10:37pm

Even if you agree with the whole idea of charging people for relieving themselves, you should check before you pay the bill that you are being billed for your water usage and not someone else's. A guy from Coffey Construction called to our door last Friday and asked me to check that our water was turned off. The water was still running which confused him as he was sure he had turned it off at the meter. He then asked me to run the cold tap and he would watch the meter moving. It didn't move which confirmed for him that the meter which is fitted directly outside our house, isn't on our pipe at all but someone else's.

Basically these guys are fitting meters to pipes without checking what they are connected to, so it would be advisable for people themselves to check that you are being billed for your own usage.

gctest50 · 20-12-2015 3:58am

Bob24 wrote: »

.............
I expect reminders and collection letters start arriving in a few months time.

probably not pushed since there is stuff like this now :

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2015/6515/document1.htm

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2015/a2815.pdf

Bob24 · 20-12-2015 8:12am

EGavigan wrote: »

Even if you agree with the whole idea of charging people for relieving themselves, you should check before you pay the bill that you are being billed for your water usage and not someone else's. A guy from Coffey Construction called to our door last Friday and asked me to check that our water was turned off. The water was still running which confused him as he was sure he had turned it off at the meter. He then asked me to run the cold tap and he would watch the meter moving. It didn't move which confirmed for him that the meter which is fitted directly outside our house, isn't on our pipe at all but someone else's.

Basically these guys are fitting meters to pipes without checking what they are connected to, so it would be advisable for people themselves to check that you are being billed for your own usage.

It definitely is a good idea for people to double check.

However I'm not sure it's fair to say "these guys are fitting meters to pipes without checking what they are connected to" based on the example you mentioned - if I understand you correctly the guy actually detected the mismatch himself by trying to turn off the water at the meter and verifying it has an effect in your house. Was checking which house the pipe is connected to not precisely what he did there?

Heisenberg. · 22-12-2015 10:33am

This post has been deleted.

The_Conductor · 22-12-2015 10:35am

Heisenberg. wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Its not guesswork though- its a flatrate charge, based on the number of occupants (and their ages)- until such time as its metered- at which stage you pay as per the metered amount.

lindascribbler · 30-03-2016 8:50am

I have only now realised I had to ring Irish Water to register tenant to ensure I wouldn't have to pay her water charges.
Now tenant has moved (has left me with her refuse, is in arrears with other utilities). IW have said if tenant rings them to say she was a tenant, I won't have to pay but as she's a protestor it's unlikely she will do that.
Have I any comeback or do I just have to suck it up and pay her water charges E300+ ?

The_Conductor · 30-03-2016 8:54am

lindascribbler wrote: »

Have I any comeback or do I just have to suck it up and pay her water charges E300+ ?

Take the water charges- and any other utility arrears from her deposit.

Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

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