Every 16-year-old in Sweden to receive copy of We Should All Be Feminists

silverharp · 05-12-2015 11:27AM

The Nigerian novelist is also critical of modern masculinity, calling it a “hard, small cage” that forces men to hide emotion. “We teach boys to be afraid of fear, of weakness, of vulnerability,” she writes. “We teach them to mask their true selves, because they have to be, in Nigerian-speak – a hard man.”

Why do femisinsts get to say what is wrong with men , but if men make the slightest observation about women its denounced as "mansplaining" ??

the evasion_kid · 05-12-2015 11:36AM

silverharp wrote: »

Why do femisinsts get to say what is wrong with men , but if men make the slightest observation about women its denounced as "mansplaining" ??

its denounced as misogyny for asking a few hard questions or calling them on their bulls**t...

suicide_circus · 05-12-2015 11:40AM

If I don't oppress at least three women before breakfast I feel like I've wasted the day

One eyed Jack · 05-12-2015 11:49AM

The Nigerian novelist is also critical of modern masculinity, calling it a “hard, small cage” that forces men to hide emotion. “We teach boys to be afraid of fear, of weakness, of vulnerability,” she writes. “We teach them to mask their true selves, because they have to be, in Nigerian-speak – a hard man.”

The above is exactly the kind of crap I just don't get. Where the hell are some feminists getting their ideas? And why do they neef to believe that masculinity forces men to hide anything?

Some modern feminists seem to want men to hide their masculinity and behave like fearful, weak, vulnerable women! Why would any man want to behave like that? Why would any woman want to behave like that? If that's not teaching people not to be themselves, I don't know what is!

It's incredibly patronising IMO. I wouldn't even take it as an insult though, because it's just nonsense. It's the same clap-trap Emma Watson was peddling at the UN "inviting" men to join feminism or whatever, and women would protect them, something like that...

*shudders*

No thank you, tbh. I'm perfectly capable, as are most men, of taking care of myself, without feeling like I'm in a glass cage of emotion or any of the rest of that nonsense.

Wibbs · 05-12-2015 11:49AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Was making the point in terms of the alleged dangers of prescribed reading rather than a comparison of literary merit...but you must have known that.

Hard to tell TBH. After all you did write "I think an essay on feminism would have been more relevant and thought provoking.". Relevant I can see, but an essay on feminism being more thought provoking than one of the greatest musings on the human mind ever committed to paper?

As far as what masculinity "means"? Yes some cultural expectations of men are very narrow and confusing for some men and that's not good(though the amount of it can be over exaggerated IMH), however one can easily argue that the new feminist expectations of masculinity are just as narrow and confusing(as can be their expectations of femininity by the by). The caricature might be the reserved "right on", overwhelmingly left leaning introvert constantly in touch with his emotions. And that's fandabbydozy if one is a reserved "right on", overwhelmingly left leaning introvert constantly in touch with his emotions, but that's just as restrictive a notion of men as is macho beer swilling footie fans with the emotional range of an Easter island statue with constipation caricature. Of further confusion, particularly to young men, it's all too often it's the latter caricature that gets more female attention.

dr.bollocko · 05-12-2015 11:50AM

What the **** is wrong with you people. Feminism: more scary than ISIS. Well done after hours.

strelok · 05-12-2015 11:52AM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

What the **** is wrong with you people. Feminism: more scary than ISIS. Well done after hours.

are you in the right thread?

tritium · 05-12-2015 11:52AM

silverharp wrote: »

Why do femisinsts get to say what is wrong with men , but if men make the slightest observation about women its denounced as "mansplaining" ??

Tbh I wonder this myself about certain feminist views. Its alright to tell us all the things about men and boys that need to change or be re-Educated but god help anyone who wants to display 'misogyny' by looking to change aspects of women

Wibbs · 05-12-2015 11:54AM

Strelok wrote:

are you in the right thread?

Wondered that myself S.

dr.bollocko wrote: »

What the **** is wrong with you people. Feminism: more scary than ISIS. Well done after hours.

Exaggerate much? Maybe we should attach "trigger warnings", or is that me being "micro aggressive"? Sheesh.

RWCNT · 05-12-2015 11:58AM

cantdecide wrote: »

Feminism good.
Masculinity bad.

Right. I think I finally got it.

How hard do you guys actually try to not understand things? There are well established ideas about masculinity and the role of a man that are absolutely damaging to men. Where do think the entire issue of fathers rights comes from?

Billy86 · 05-12-2015 12:00PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

What the **** is wrong with you people. Feminism: more scary than ISIS. Well done after hours.

Ah no you see, this is a thread blanket-vilifying feminism so it is only seen as a great threat in here. Go to the threads about ISIS and the same people will be blanket-vilifying over 1.5bn people because they are ever-so-concerned over the rights of women. Sometimes they get confused though about which hymn sheet they're supposed to be singing off, like we've seen a few times in this thread.

You're a mod, you should know this by now.

kettlehead · 05-12-2015 12:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We were forced to read Shakespearean plays about anti Semitism and the Prince who loved his mum and we all turned out pretty okay. That was a few years after the years and years of forced Catechism and Religion. I think an essay on feminism would have been more relevant and thought provoking.

I guess feminism is the new enemy for so many though. Certainly on AH.

There are a few feminist quotes in his plays. "Do you not know I am a woman? When I think, then I must speak.”

Wibbs · 05-12-2015 12:02PM

RWCNT wrote: »

There are well established ideas about masculinity and the role of a man that are absolutely damaging to men. Where do think the entire issue of fathers rights comes from?

I agree R, but good luck with looking to modern feminism to redress that balance. Look at how it pushes the women as always the victims mantra(a whole other thread that one), which in effect paints men as always the perpetrators. Nigh on 50% of cases of partner abuse the man is the victim. How many support groups/battered men's shelters can you name? This is up to men to change things.

kettlehead · 05-12-2015 12:06PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

What the **** is wrong with you people. Feminism: more scary than ISIS. Well done after hours.

Yeah, nobody has said anything of the sort. Relax with the hyperbole.

tritium · 05-12-2015 12:09PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The above is exactly the kind of crap I just don't get. Where the hell are some feminists getting their ideas? And why do they neef to believe that masculinity forces men to hide anything?

Some modern feminists seem to want men to hide their masculinity and behave like fearful, weak, vulnerable women! Why would any man want to behave like that? Why would any woman want to behave like that? If that's not teaching people not to be themselves, I don't know what is!

It's incredibly patronising IMO. I wouldn't even take it as an insult though, because it's just nonsense. It's the same clap-trap Emma Watson was peddling at the UN "inviting" men to join feminism or whatever, and women would protect them, something like that...

*shudders*

No thank you, tbh. I'm perfectly capable, as are most men, of taking care of myself, without feeling like I'm in a glass cage of emotion or any of the rest of that nonsense.

I don't always find myself agreeing with OEJ, but in this case, nail on the fcuking head.

The rather insulting idea held by feminists that somehow they can change men to be better, or at least what they consider better, is toxic. The brand of man promoted by some feminists thought is no more complete or rounded or better than the caveman caricature of men also beloved of some feminist schools of thought. And the idea that they somehow masculinity should conform to what they would like it to be reduces to little more than thinly veiled misandry.

cantdecide · 05-12-2015 12:11PM

Wibbs wrote: »

This is up to men to change things.

Or a Utopian egalitarian movement but then who could be demonised?

AnonoBoy · 05-12-2015 12:11PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

What the **** is wrong with you people. Feminism: more scary than ISIS. Well done after hours.

Cameron put it to a vote on the Internet and it's been agreed - we're gong to bomb feminism.

orubiru · 05-12-2015 12:28PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Was making the point in terms of the alleged dangers of prescribed reading rather than a comparison of literary merit...but you must have known that.

Managed to get through Hamlet and not want to kill my uncle and marry my mum.

I guess this feminist essay is far more dangerous. And Swedish youth far more impressionable than we were.

Well I think it's fair to suggest that some aspects of Feminism are perfectly agreeable. Men and women should have equal rights and opportunities in society. Understanding that and repeating it is not dangerous at all.

Christianity teaches that we shouldn't kill or steal and that we should be more forgiving and understanding. Again, all perfectly reasonable things.

Would we all be in favor of giving every kid in the land a book titled "We should all be Catholics"? I sure as hell would not be OK with this.

I would like to make the suggestion that it's the things they will try to slip "under the radar" that are the problem.

For Catholics this might be the suggestion that marriage is for men and women only. Or it might be the suggestion that abortion is murder.

I ask you to consider this article from a website called Everyday Feminism.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/focusing-on-her-pleasure/

That's right. Focusing on her pleasure can still be sexist.

That's Feminism.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/11/foodie-without-appropriation/

That's right. "The Feminist Guide to Being a Foodie Without Being Culturally Appropriative"

That's Feminism too.

So, let's not try and pretend that totally innocuous ideas are the problem. Let's not pretend that there isn't a progression from those ideas to some completely whacky nonsense. Let's not pretend that the kids won't be encouraged to go down that path.

It might not be dangerous but it's not exactly healthy.

Kids should not be indoctrinated into religions or social movements or any other kind of ideology.

Look at this happy, rich, successful and passionate man talking about wanting to make the world a better place. Sure, it's just about creating a better world. "You look at someone and know absolutely that you can help them". Hey, it's just about helping people right, right? OK. He's so dedicated to helping the whole world to be a better place.

Wow. I see no problem at all with any of that. Shouldn't we teach the kids to help each other and make the world a better place? Come on, let's teach them all about it!

Should we give every schoolkid in Ireland a new book called "We should all be Scientologists"?

05-12-2015 12:38PM

orubiru wrote: »

Would we all be in favor of giving every kid in the land a book titled "We should all be Catholics"? I sure as hell would not be OK with this.

We were pretty much given those books.

And I don't think there has been a generation more sceptical and questioning about Catholicism.

I don't accept the premise that 16 year olds are almost inculcated by what they read. In my year we had to read allegories about society like Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies. They provoked debate and thought, not blind acceptance of democratic socialism.

I have no issue with a critique or criticism of the work. But I would question whether giving it to teenagers really is that troubling.

Pat Mustard · 05-12-2015 12:52PM

'A hard, small cage that forces men to hide emotion'.

This is self serving feminist stuff.

If she wants to talk about the 'hard, small cage' which increases male suicide rates then maybe she should talk about equal rights re paternity, separation/divorce, children, division of marital assets, etc.

No sign of that though. Easy to blame all men instead, under the blanket term of 'masculinity'.

Easy for a feminist to blame men for their own apparent shortcomings, doing absolutely nothing to address existing problems. It's absolutely hypocritical.

The Guardian is talking man-hating b0llocks again. No surprise really.

suicide_circus · 05-12-2015 01:01PM

Dosnt this stuff all just boil down to penis envy?

RWCNT · 05-12-2015 01:09PM

Pat Mustard wrote: »

'A hard, small cage that forces men to hide emotion'.

This is self serving feminist stuff.

If she wants to talk about the 'hard, small cage' which increases male suicide rates then maybe she should talk about equal rights re paternity, separation/divorce, children, division of marital assets, etc.

No sign of that though. Easy to blame all men instead, under the blanket term of 'masculinity'.

Easy for a feminist to blame men for their own apparent shortcomings, doing absolutely nothing to address existing problems. It's absolutely hypocritical.

The Guardian is talking man-hating b0llocks again. No surprise really.

Do men's issues in family law not come from an oppressive view of masculinity?

How are "all men" being blamed exactly? What are you even on about in the second bolded line? I see feminism lambasted for encouraging it's followers to take a victim mentality, where did you pick it up from then?

tritium · 05-12-2015 01:27PM

RWCNT wrote: »

Do men's issues in family law not come from an oppressive view of masculinity?
?

I believe that the tender years doctrine actually largely came about due to campaigns by early feminists. Prior to that the default was for fathers to get custody in divorce. So I guess the answer is no, not really

wakka12 · 05-12-2015 01:38PM

the_syco wrote: »

She's right there, it would be dishonest. Feminism is about getting more rights for women.

What is with this mindset? During the referendum you'd hear the same **** being said, gay people want to have more rights than straight people , like it doesn't even make sense

nullzero · 05-12-2015 01:41PM

I'm all in favor of gender equality, however today's version of feminism which is becoming increasingly like misandry can flip off sharpish.

Wibbs · 05-12-2015 01:45PM

RWCNT wrote: »

I see feminism lambasted for encouraging it's followers to take a victim mentality, where did you pick it up from then?

Are you being serious R? Modern feminism is almost entirely about the victimisation of women and how it's men/the patriarchy/government that are doing the victimisation. It makes women out to be weak offence seeking missiles, easily "triggered" by words and "microagressions" with no agency over their lives. This runs through modern feminism like words through a stick of rock. Take as an example the whole alcohol and consent area. Women are to never be held responsible for their actions or safety, whereas men are always responsible and more are responsible for the women's safety with it. Look at feminist thought surrounding crime and punishment for another example and contrast it with the original suffragette movements back in the day. Those women were looking for actual equality, fought hard(and sometimes died) for it. They even went so far as to demand equality of sentencing including for capital crimes. They campaigned to not let their gender get in the way of being hanged. Today it's all about women shouldn't even be in prison, with the side order of the usual male abuse that put them there being dropped in.

Never mind feminism and men, it paints a picture of women as cosseted children in constant need of protection from the world and that bears pretty much no semblance to adult women I know and have known. It's a bloody insult IMH.

wakka12 wrote:

What is with this mindset? During the referendum you'd hear the same **** being said, gay people want to have more rights than straight people , like it doesn't even make sense

You're right, it doesn't, but that's not what was said. To take the gay angle it would be more like saying that gay campaigners want to fight for the rights of gay folks and straight folks don't particularly concern them, except to co-opt support from them. Feminism want to fight for the rights of women and men don't particularly concern them, except to co-opt support from them. The idea that feminism is concerned for men's rights is beyond daft really. I'm sure individuals who self describe as such are concerned, but the movement isn't. Naturally, as I said the clue is kinda in the name.

kettlehead · 05-12-2015 01:47PM

Nodin wrote: »

Quelle surprise.

What? That I think teenagers should be encouraged to think for themselves and form their own opinions without having any particular ideology forced upon them?

Eugene Norman · 05-12-2015 01:49PM

wakka12 wrote: »

What is with this mindset? During the referendum you'd hear the same **** being said, gay people want to have more rights than straight people , like it doesn't even make sense

In terms of rights to children post divorce and proposed laws on consent modern feminism is in fact looking for greater not equal rights.

Saipanne · 05-12-2015 01:58PM

Every feminist/SJW should be sent a copy of:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

ThinkProgress · 05-12-2015 01:59PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Hard to tell TBH. After all you did write "I think an essay on feminism would have been more relevant and thought provoking.". Relevant I can see, but an essay on feminism being more thought provoking than one of the greatest musings on the human mind ever committed to paper?

As far as what masculinity "means"? Yes some cultural expectations of men are very narrow and confusing for some men and that's not good(though the amount of it can be over exaggerated IMH), however one can easily argue that the new feminist expectations of masculinity are just as narrow and confusing(as can be their expectations of femininity by the by). The caricature might be the reserved "right on", overwhelmingly left leaning introvert constantly in touch with his emotions. And that's fandabbydozy if one is a reserved "right on", overwhelmingly left leaning introvert constantly in touch with his emotions, but that's just as restrictive a notion of men as is macho beer swilling footie fans with the emotional range of an Easter island statue with constipation caricature. Of further confusion, particularly to young men, it's all too often it's the latter caricature that gets more female attention.

What women say they want, and what they actually want, can often be two (or 3,4,5...:P) very different things!

Sure some domineering chip-on-their-shoulder types might enjoy having a slavish left leaning lapdog to toy with, but the majority of women are just not attracted to that. (even if many desperately wish they were - or society convinces them they should be)

Some modern men could be equated to shape-shifters. A sort of human cameleon. A sad kind of dancing monkey, that does tricks for peanuts... which ironically usually leads to an empty shell!

I don't see anything wrong with men and women somewhat adapting their behaviors in order to coexist with each other. But some people take this concept too far... and then pollute it with their deluded notions of misogyny!

We're all encouraged to embrace our true identities and feelings in this society. Except if you're a man and you want to embrace your masculinity... then you're told it's dirty and uncivilized. (Bad monkey!!) :pac:

Every 16-year-old in Sweden to receive copy of We Should All Be Feminists

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