Irish Government violating the human rights of women

Gaygooner · 02-12-2015 01:50AM

So you feel they should have to leave the country???

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 01:50AM

sup_dude wrote: »

No, I don't know. You're making an awful lot of presumptions based on your own single experience.

Well no, it wasn't a single experience. About 5 experiences when you include mates who are lads and the effects it had on them, being helpless to stop their child being taken away from them

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 01:52AM

Gaygooner wrote: »

So you feel they should have to leave the country???

Yes, it's a good deterrent. So what if she's an immediate relation? She's ended the life of another one of my relations, an innocent party in the whole fiasco who never even asked to be created yet is the only one who ultimately loses out

Bongalongherb · 02-12-2015 01:54AM

The amount of lies we all had to put up with from Labour & FG in the past are all being newly highlighted again at this time. This government and the fast deflation of Labour are struggling immensely with more lies to fool the citizens of Ireland to get a vote to stay in government as they are so far and distant away from real reality regarding its citizens I'd just laugh at their verbal nonsensicals.

The government were voted in as public servants to uphold the best interests of its citizens and country, but it seems they are upholding the best interests of large corporations and pissing down from a height on the citizens that elected them, why vote for them again ? and this is why they should be removed immediately. There won't be a referendum on this any-time soon.

One eyed Jack · 02-12-2015 01:55AM

Gaygooner wrote: »

Fine. She had a problem, addressed it.

How were the women you knew?

The Golden Miller does have a point, as does sup_dude, but sup_dude's original point that TGM took issue with was this -

sup_dude wrote: »

Getting an abortion plays havoc on a woman's mental health and it isn't a decision taken lightly by most.

Now I did think too that sup_dude was referring to the fact that for many women, the decision to seek an abortion has them wracked with guilt, because for them they do see abortion as immoral, and had hoped they would never be in that position where they would have to make that call, and I've seen it tear women apart mentally, and then of course they experience all the physiological and hormonal changes on their body that add to the stress and make that decision even more difficult.

Your friend Gaygooner it seems was incredibly fortunate in her circumstances, and I've met a few women myself who were able to make that decision and carried on with their lives and were able to cope. Then I've met far more women whom it absolutely tore them apart to have to make that decision first, and then to have gone through with it. They absolutely carried the guilt and experienced the social stigma and in some cases their families and other friends never even knew, because they felt they would be judged for what they'd done.

The answer is these women need better support, but with the current situation regarding mental healthcare in Ireland, these supports aren't easily accessible to so many women that need them, specialist care, the support just isn't there, even if abortion were legislated for in this country in the morning.

That's what makes the issue of abortion so unique, and that's why I find comparisons with people's attitudes regarding the marriage equality referendum, and comparing that to people's attitudes with regard to abortion, aren't even in the same ball park. I know a good many women who are absolutely opposed to abortion, and those same women are non-religious, but they still have a moral objection to legislating for abortion in this country.

I wouldn't automatically assume that just because a person identifies as religious, that means they must also be opposed to abortion, and by that same token, I wouldn't assume that because a person is opposed to abortion, that their opposition is based upon religion. People can have their own morals without religion, and by that same token, religion doesn't always inform people's opinion with regard to their opinion on abortion.

Ave Sodalis · 02-12-2015 01:55AM

The Golden Miller wrote:

Well no, it wasn't a single experience. About 5 experiences when you include mates who are lads and the effects it had on them, being helpless to stop their child being taken away from them

Oh look, a different argument. Are you gonna go through all the arguments against abortion until you might possibly stumble across one that fits, then claim it as your original argument? Unfortunately, this is a tactic that the anti-ssm crowd on Boards were very fond of but it's not very effective. I would suggest not going down that route.

topmanamillion · 02-12-2015 01:56AM

I think the decision will ultimately be taken out of the countries hands. There's only so long the EU will stand aside while tragedies like the savita halappanavar one happen and our response is to muddy the water even more and continue to brush our issues over to the UK.
We have the option now to have a mature debate about it or have a minimum guideline dictated to us.

Ave Sodalis · 02-12-2015 01:58AM

One eyed Jack wrote:

Now I did think too that sup_dude was referring to the fact that for many women, the decision to seek an abortion has them wracked with guilt, because for them they do see abortion as immoral, and had hoped they would never be in that position where they would have to make that call, and I've seen it tear women apart mentally, and then of course they experience all the physiological and hormonal changes on their body that add to the stress and make that decision even more difficult.

My point wasn't coming from a moral/immoral point of view though. It was more a hormonal/biological point of view, and from with that regard, it can't be a moral issue. There is also the pressure from prolifers who like to force their views on everyone.

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:13AM

sup_dude wrote: »

My point wasn't coming from a moral/immoral point of view though. It was more a hormonal/biological point of view, and from with that regard, it can't be a moral issue. There is also the pressure from prolifers who like to force their views on everyone.

Well hopefully they continue to "force their views on everyone", because if they don't there will be no one to stand in the corner for the only party with no say, the unborn baby, who is the only one being robbed of it's life.

We are intelligent. We know the difference between right or wrong. Therefore it's a moral issue

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:16AM

topmanamillion wrote: »

I think the decision will ultimately be taken out of the countries hands. There's only so long the EU will stand aside while tragedies like the savita halappanavar one happen and our response is to muddy the water even more and continue to brush our issues over to the UK.
We have the option now to have a mature debate about it or have a minimum guideline dictated to us.

Ye because incidents like Savita are happening everyday. Back to the exception are we? Are you in favor of abortion is certain circumstances or in favor of full blown abortion laws where anyone can waddle down and get one? If it's the latter than what has Savita got to do with it?

bodice ripper · 02-12-2015 02:16AM

Yeah, we don't all agree that life begins at conception/implantation though, hence the argument. Try and keep up.

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:17AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

Yeah, we don't all agree that life begins at conception/implantation though, hence the argument. Try and keep up.

When does it start for you?

bodice ripper · 02-12-2015 02:19AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

When does it start for you?

A level of brain complexity to allow self awareness.

ThinkProgress · 02-12-2015 02:20AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well hopefully they continue to "force their views on everyone", because if they don't there will be no one to stand in the corner for the only party with no say, the unborn baby, who is the only one being robbed of it's life.

We are intelligent. We know the difference between right or wrong. Therefore it's a moral issue

What about all the babies that won't be created on a Friday night, because some drunk fool failed to coerce anyone with a pulse and a womb to procreate with him...?

Will you mourn that loss of life too?

Life is potentially lost every time a guy decides to watch porn instead of going out to the pub.

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:21AM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

What about all the babies that won't be created on a Friday night, because some drunk fool failed to coerce anyone with a pulse and a womb to procreate with him...?

Will you mourn that loss of life too?

Life is potentially lost every time a guy decides to watch porn instead of going out to the pub.

Hitting some serious pedantic lows now

Wompa1 · 02-12-2015 02:22AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You absolutely are making abortion about men (or at least you're making a good attempt at it anyway), when you try and suggest that any constitutional or legislative changes regarding abortion should represent men equally, particularly when men are not equally affected by the issue.

It's true that having a born child affects both men and women, but the decision to carry that child, or to give birth to a child, is solely the responsibility of a woman. Decisions with regard to a child once a woman gives birth, are nothing to do with her choice as to whether or not a woman actually wants to terminate her pregnancy by means of an abortion.

But when did I say that a man can decide whether or not the woman has to carry the child?...it's still up to her. It's not like I'm saying if the father wants the kid but the mother doesn't that she must be forced to have the kid because he wants it.

Abortion should be up to the woman. But like I said a woman could have an abortion for many different reasons other than just having to carry the child for 9 months...

ThinkProgress · 02-12-2015 02:24AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Hitting some serious pedantic lows now

Am I?

Pregnancies happen quite easily and are quite often not intended.

And in case you hadn't noticed, we also have a world population that's exploding out of control.

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:25AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

A level of brain complexity to allow self awareness.

Poor jellyfish. Here was me thinking they were alive and functioning despite their lack of a brain and self awareness. When exactly do we become self aware?

topmanamillion · 02-12-2015 02:26AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Ye because incidents like Savita are happening everyday. Back to the exception are we? Are you in favor of abortion is certain circumstances or in favor of full blown abortion laws where anyone can waddle down and get one? If it's the latter than what has Savita got to do with it?

While the savita cases are rare (most likely because of a mixture of blind luck and hard working proffessionals), women having to go to the UK on a daily basis are not.
Stories of women with carrying unviable photesus' but one which do not meet the criteria having to go to the UK are all too common.
I've made my views clear already and they are indexable.

bodice ripper · 02-12-2015 02:27AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Poor jellyfish. Here was me thinking they were alive and functioning despite their lack of a brain and self awareness. When exactly do we become self aware?

**** jellyfish.

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:27AM

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Am I?

Pregnancies happen quite easily and are quite often not intended.

And in case you hadn't noticed, we also have a world population that's exploding out of control.

What's the relevance exactly? What's your point? That I'm "pro-life" and every time I **** and flush it down the toilet I'm a hypocrite?

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:28AM

topmanamillion wrote: »

While the savita cases are rare (most likely because of a mixture of blind luck and hard working proffessionals), women having to go to the UK on a daily basis are not.
Stories of women with carrying unviable photesus' but one which do not meet the criteria having to go to the UK are all too common.
I've made my views clear already and they are indexable.

Well I didn't read back so I'm assuming your against abortions akin to the UK, but in favor of liberalizing them to a point here?

The Golden Miller · 02-12-2015 02:28AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

**** jellyfish.

I like jellyfish

bodice ripper · 02-12-2015 02:31AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I like jellyfish

Well, you incubate one then.

S.O · 02-12-2015 02:32AM

manonboard wrote: »

I really hope, expect and want a referendum on this.

I think pro choice will win easily enough.

At the end of the day, the rules for these things are and should be decided by the people.
The people who don't wish to partake of the abortion service wont. That's their personal choice and its ok.
I understand that they believe a wrong is being committed, and its good that they try to stop that. In the end though, I'm on the other side of that argument. I am pro choice.

I wont avail of the service myself. I'm grown up enough and mentally/financially/life ready to support a child in a healthy environment.
5 years ago? Not a chance. I would only be recycling the same silly cycles i was raised.

Words like murder or abortion mean nothing. Its just both sides trying to copt the word that manipulates the listener to their side. I consider it gross on all accounts. Murder implying a morally wrong taking of a 'conscious' life. Aborting, a neutral word denoting the stopping of a process. Both trying to shine their own light to minimise their damage, and maximise their righteous choice.

Its a shame people don't agree on the facts. That there is a life, but that its parents for whatever reason do not want to support its survival. Neither situation is ideal and each person is just trying to try do their best, in an extremely difficult situation. This all happens in the context of a society which other people feel affected by what others do.

I think the trend of opinion is moving towards choice as successive generations occur. Hopefully, it will all be behind us in 20 years. It will take a while for people to move on to other issues .

I think the pro life movement really shot themselves in the foot with bad strategy. It would of been a far more efficient strategy in terms of long term winning to foster a society of love, growth, adoration of children. Supporting the parents who may struggle or who are on the fence. Not with the decision, but with the life that follows it. Instead, anger, shame and guilt were used. Something that everyone rebels against. Its a failing strategy. I understand the often deeply held morals come often from the religious background which used anger guilt and shame in copious amounts. Its not a surprise they carried over, but the painting was on the wall for how society would react.

Tis a misfortune that it causes such hardship for either side.

My own views on abortion are in past posts of mine, that it should be legal for certain cases such as rape/incest/ffa etc, for arguments sake lets say a referendum on complete repeal passes for the more hardcore religious pro life element I don,t think they will just let things go, if one looks to other countries they often picket clinics and confront women going in, that could very well also occur here, which is why whether its a referendum for complete repeal of a referendum to alter the 8th , if either should pass, there should be laws to create buffer zones around clinics similar to what Australia has just passed.

http://mashable.com/2015/11/27/protesters-abortion-clinic/#exdcqX7n.5qH

One eyed Jack · 02-12-2015 02:36AM

sup_dude wrote: »

My point wasn't coming from a moral/immoral point of view though. It was more a hormonal/biological point of view, and from with that regard, it can't be a moral issue.

No I understood where you were coming from as soon as you mentioned hormones alright, and it's true that morality doesn't come into it from a physiological perspective, but their mental health is of course influenced too by their morality, and by how they feel about the issue of abortion, both as an abstract concept, and as an issue were they ever to find themselves in a position where they had to make that call. Their morality is influenced by a number of factors, and that's a fact that can't simply be ignored, because it's an inconvenience to come up with an argument to overcome that resistance.

There is also the pressure from prolifers who like to force their views on everyone.

I don't think that's an issue that's particular to "prolifers" tbh, there are some people who call themselves "pro-choice", who are just as feverent about forcing their views on everyone.

I don't particularly align with either stance as I find both as unsavoury as each other tbh. I've said it before that those sorts of simplistic labels just don't apply to most people. I think most people would prefer if abortion weren't necessary, therefore most people are pro-life, but because abortion isn't so clear cut, there are probably just as many people who if they were ever to find themselves in that situation, would prefer to have a choice in the matter for themselves, therefore also making them pro-choice!

In order to engage in any meaningful dialog, the only way to do so usefully, would be for people to leave their prejudices about other people outside the door on the way in, but what do you think are the chances that would ever happen? Irish society just isn't ready for that sort of mature discussion IMO, and that's how we find ourselves in the position we're in now, where we have some ham-fisted legislation and a mess in the Constitution that politicians have so far managed to avoid, because they know there's no appetite for abortion in Irish society when we can still export the "problem" - "out of sight, out of mind" attitude seems to work well for most people in this country rather than have to sit down and actually discuss the issue like mature adults.

JupiterKid · 02-12-2015 02:38AM

The 8th Amendment was enacted in 1983 - 32 years ago, or over a generation ago. Ireland has changed hugely in social terms in the intervening 3 decades.

There should be a new referendum and it should happen soon. BTW I'm in favour of abortion in the case of rape/incest, the danger to a woman's life (thinking of the sad Savita Halanapavar case) or a fatal Fetal anomaly.

topmanamillion · 02-12-2015 02:41AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

The 8th Amendment was enacted in 1983 - 32 years ago, or over a generation ago. Ireland has changed hugely in social terms in the intervening 3 facades.

There should be a new referendum and it should happen soon. BTW I'm in favour if abortion in the case of rape/incest, the danger to a woman's life (thinking of the sad Savita Halanapavar case) or a fatal Fetal anomaly.

I'd agree with this but I'd also add mentally incapable of having a pregnancy. What I'm thinking here is there are some people without the mental facilities/health to understand they are pregnant or what having a child involves. It's a highly complex area.

ThinkProgress · 02-12-2015 02:43AM

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What's the relevance exactly? What's your point? That I'm "pro-life" and every time I **** and flush it down the toilet I'm a hypocrite?

Well you wasted an opportunity to create life, right? You potentially flushed the cure for cancer down the toilet? (or maybe the next adolf hitler - who knows?)

My point is that there is a lot of humans on this planet. We're not all the precious unique snowflakes that "pro-lifers" seem to think.

Yes our lives have value. And we have rights... when we're developed and outside the womb.

But it's so easy to create a baby. Ridiculously easy. How can we put so much value on something that requires practically nothing beyond what we were born with?

Two drunk gobsh*tes can create a baby just by taking their clothes off and falling on top of each other. And you treat the product of something like that, as if it was a capital murder case to abort it?

It's crazy!!

Human life has the potential to become something worthwhile. Just as it has the potential become something horrible.

But that's all it is at that stage - potential.

JupiterKid · 02-12-2015 02:50AM

When will this country have a calm, collected and mature discussion about abortion and all the complexities it involves?

Like this thread, discussion of abortion seems to descend into mud slinging between pro-lifers and the pro-choice camp.

We really need to grow up and stop being happy to export the problem to the UK.

Irish Government violating the human rights of women

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