Should Kilcock be in the Leap/Short Hop zone?

n97 mini · 30-11-2015 10:30AM #1

I'm looking at the maps here and Balbriggan is significantly further from Connolly by rail, and by road there's not a lot in it.

Given Kilcock is a commuter town for the GDA, should it not be served better, both in Leap/Short Hop pricing terms and in frequency of trains? Last train from Connolly is at 19.05.

cgcsb · 30-11-2015 11:01AM

No it's been decided that the leap zone will follow GAA boundaries, with the exception of Greystones. Nobody commutes from Kildare, obviously.

icdg · 30-11-2015 11:38AM

Er, both Leixlip stations, Maynooth, and Hazelhatch and Celbridge are all in the short hop zone. I expect reason Kilcock is not is that Maynooth is where most Commuter services terminate. Plus Maynooth and Leixlip are served by Dublin Bus whereas Kilcock is not (though used to be by a small number of 66 services).

LXFlyer · 30-11-2015 11:58AM

The short hop zone is where it has always been.

Inevitably people from just outside it are going to complain about fares/service levels, but there has to be a boundary set somewhere. Moving it would mean extra cost.

As for changing service levels - Kilcock station is a single platform on a single line - there are no turnaround facilities so it's not going to happen unless extra trains operate to Enfield or Mullingar.

There are later services on Bus Eireann route 115 and 115A.

loyatemu · 30-11-2015 02:07PM

I think ICDG is right though - it's down to where Dublin Bus services go (or used to go in some cases). DB serves Kilcoole, Balbriggan, Celbridge and Maynooth. DB doesn't serve Wicklow, Gormanston, Naas or Kilcock. It's a legacy of the old CIE.

cython · 30-11-2015 02:26PM

loyatemu wrote: »

I think ICDG is right though - it's down to where Dublin Bus services go (or used to go in some cases). DB serves Kilcoole, Balbriggan, Celbridge and Maynooth. DB doesn't serve Wicklow, Gormanston, Naas or Kilcock. It's a legacy of the old CIE.

I'm reasonably sure that DB used to have at least infrequent services to Kilcock until several years ago (though I can't comment as to when they originally started, etc. so they may have post-dated the relevant period you're talking about, and been short-lived) in the form of the 66K, as I remember them stopping outside college in Maynooth on the Kilcock road.

LXFlyer · 30-11-2015 02:31PM

cython wrote: »

I'm reasonably sure that DB used to have at least infrequent services to Kilcock until several years ago (though I can't comment as to when they originally started, etc. so they may have post-dated the relevant period you're talking about, and been short-lived) in the form of the 66K, as I remember them stopping outside college in Maynooth on the Kilcock road.

They did traditionally have a very limited service on the 66 to/from Kilcock:
Mon-Fri (5 outbound, 6 inbound),
Sat (4 outbound, 5 inbound)
Sun (1 outbound and inbound)

Like other long distance DB routes outer suburban fares applied. Bus Eireann filled the gaps with some services on the 115.

When Network Direct was implemented Bus Eireann took over the Kilcock section with an enhanced 115/115A service.

As I posted above, there has to be a boundary point on the Short Hop Zone, and that's unfortunate for places outside it, but changing that will have funding implications.

n97 mini · 30-11-2015 02:34PM

My question really is should it be? In the interests of fairness only, seeing as places further out in Dublin and Wicklow are. Operational and cost issues aside. Personally I think it should be.

lxflyer wrote: »

As for changing service levels - Kilcock station is a single platform on a single line - there are no turnaround facilities

Bray - Greystones is single track. Though I believe the short hop zone ends further out in Kilcoole?

LXFlyer · 30-11-2015 02:44PM

n97 mini wrote: »

My question really is should it be? In the interests of fairness only, seeing as places further out in Dublin and Wicklow are. Operational and cost issues aside. Personally I think it should be.

Bray - Greystones is single track. Though I believe the short hop zone ends further out in Kilcoole?

The short hop zone has to finish somewhere - people are going to complain regardless.

Greystones has a passing loop which facilitates turning trains - Kilcock doesn't have that. To increase the number of trains would mean that all of these extra trains that you want would have to go to Enfield (or more likely Mullingar).

Jem72 · 30-11-2015 02:56PM

Balbriggan is 3km further from Connolly that Kilcock yet it is in the Short Hop zone. While it may be impractical to include Kilcock in improved frequency, it seems only fair that it should be included for pricing purposes.

What is really unfair about the short hop system is that there does not appear to be a way to add Dublin bus to a point-to-point ticket without buying a separate Dublin bus ticket for 1320 euro per annum. If you want to add Dublin bus to a rail-only short-hop, that is only 300 euro. Where is the logic in not just having Dublin bus as a 300 euro top-up to any annual rail ticket?

n97 mini · 30-11-2015 02:58PM

lxflyer wrote: »

The short hop zone has to finish somewhere - people are going to complain regardless.

If it's the same distance out for everyone then I don't think anyone can complain if everyone is treated equally.

As regards passing loops, Maynooth trains run past Maynooth station a bit to change tracks, so is it not just a case of timetabling? Is a passing loop really needed?

LXFlyer · 30-11-2015 03:07PM

n97 mini wrote: »

If it's the same distance out for everyone then I don't think anyone can complain if everyone is treated equally.

As regards passing loops, Maynooth trains run past Maynooth station a bit to change tracks, so is it not just a case of timetabling? Is a passing loop really needed?

They do - because it is signalled for it and there is a headshunt and siding that allows for it.

The next signalling section is Maynooth-Enfield.

LXFlyer · 30-11-2015 03:14PM

Jem72 wrote: »

Balbriggan is 3km further from Connolly that Kilcock yet it is in the Short Hop zone. While it may be impractical to include Kilcock in improved frequency, it seems only fair that it should be included for pricing purposes.

What is really unfair about the short hop system is that there does not appear to be a way to add Dublin bus to a point-to-point ticket without buying a separate Dublin bus ticket for 1320 euro per annum. If you want to add Dublin bus to a rail-only short-hop, that is only 300 euro. Where is the logic in not just having Dublin bus as a 300 euro top-up to any annual rail ticket?

It does boil down ultimately to legacy issues. Kilcock would never have traditionally had the population that the likes of Balbriggan had and as such never warranted being in the Short Hop zone due to low numbers travelling. It had a limited service and was always priced at outer suburban fares (as was Balbriggan).

Now if the zone were to change it would have funding implications - and someone has to pay for that.

I certainly think that DB should be available as an add-on to long distance ticketing, but I won't hold my breath. I've never really understood why joint BE/DB tickets weren't available either.

n97 mini · 30-11-2015 03:59PM

Kilcoole is the southern end of the Short Hop zone? IE's website says it's Greystones, but it's on their own fare calculator showing Leap fares.

http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dart

loyatemu · 30-11-2015 04:01PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Kilcoole is the southern end of the Short Hop zone? IE's website says it's Greystones, but it's on their own fare calculator showing Leap fares.

http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dart

easy to forget Kilcoole - it's a remote windblown single platform that only gets a handful of trains a day.

afatbollix · 02-12-2015 12:21AM

Leap should be nationalised but that is an other thread.

Dravokivich · 02-12-2015 11:47AM

afatbollix wrote: »

Leap should be nationalised but that is an other thread.

Eh... It is available to use in other cities around the country. It's dependant on participants really.

schemingbohemia · 02-12-2015 12:13PM

Kilcock has just over 220 passengers according to the heavy rail census, Balbriggan has 1,700. Kilcoole has 33!

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/heavy-rail-census-for-2014/

If Kilcock was included in Short Hop zone then you'd have to include Enfield, sure then you'd have to include Mullingar. There has to be a line drawn somewhere. It's not like it's new.

monument · 03-12-2015 08:04PM

n97 mini wrote: »

My question really is should it be? In the interests of fairness only, seeing as places further out in Dublin and Wicklow are. Operational and cost issues aside. Personally I think it should be.

I agree.

However, extra services seem like a non-runner in the short-term.

Should Kilcock be in the Leap/Short Hop zone?

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