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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #6542
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,563 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    moneyman wrote: »
    What's the solution then? Don't let the Muslims in?

    Genuine question.

    There is a serious problem with Islam but it's the minority (still a pretty big minority - estimated at about 15-25% of Muslims).

    I still wouldn't be against taking in refugees. People forget that Syrians are getting exectuted left, right and centre for protesting against ISIS. That's true bravery, facing certain death. Syrians are not the enemy.

    Also that not all of them are muslim. There's plenty of people of other or no faiths fleeing Syria. It was a fairly secular place compared to others until ISIS got a foothold.


  • #6543
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Nodin wrote: »
    And again, they were not imported.


    They were born in Europe, and therefore are European. They were either French or Belgian citizens.
    If I was born in China, that does not make me Chinese, I'll still be Irish. Add to that they have rejected European culture, they are neither ethnically nor culturally European, they have a bit of paper that says they are *insert random European nation*, nothing more.


  • #6544
    130Kph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 625 ✭✭✭130Kph


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...which five?

    AAAaaawww, tonight was a masterclass in drip-feed contrarian* obscurantist wind-uppery. Well played sir.
    (* discussion board gold-dust)

    From an individual who still cheerleads the mass murder of policemen & soldiers in NI during the troubles (not to mention hundreds of civilians) because a percentage of them were bent (and absolutely they were) which meant you were later able to support stereotyping ALL OF THEM and murdering any one of them at will simply because they wore a uniform

    …………wtf…….what???………..hang on, isn’t your biggest whine on ALL fourms you contribute to here that:- “you can’t judge any group by their worst minority”.

    B..b..b..but ….therefore wouldn't that be puke inducing bottom of the barrel hypocrisy :eek::eek::confused::confused::eek:

    And this is the worst kind of same…because in the troubles we were talking about innocent dead bodies :mad: whereas with hypocrisy on boards - it’s just about ideas and arguments.

    Now, where were we in the discussion about solving the problem of 2nd generation Europe-hating, civilian slaughtering, Islamist Jihadists…aka worthless sociopathic losers?


  • #6545
    Letree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Letree


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    If I was born in China, that does not make me Chinese, I'll still be Irish. Add to that they have rejected European culture, they are neither ethnically nor culturally European, they have a bit of paper that says they are *insert random European nation*, nothing more.

    Yeah can you imagine some red haired son of an Irish couple born in china calling people racist if they don't consider him as Chinese as the locals. That the sort of thing has been happening in European countries for years. Chinese citizen yes but actually Chinese no.


  • #6546
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    MOD

    130Kph, tone it down. Attack the post and not the poster.


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  • #6547
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Isn't it funny (................)of one of the passports they hold?

    I don't think so.

    Unfortunately doing what you suggest follows down the road of their rejectionist organisations thinking.
    moneyman wrote:
    There is a serious problem with Islam but it's the minority (still a pretty big minority - estimated at about 15-25% of Muslims).
    .

    Were it that straightforward, then France would expect to be seeing numerous attacjs on a daily basis. Thankfully it isn't.
    JPNelsonforearm wrote:
    If I was born in China, that does not make me Chinese, I'll still be Irish. Add to that they have rejected European culture, they are neither ethnically nor culturally European, they have a bit of paper that says they are *insert random European nation*, nothing more..

    There is no ethnic requirement as regards French citizenship, nor is there a cultural one. It is not a state that operates on that basis. Creating criteria to disparage very large sections of its population strikes me as sectarian and divisive.


  • #6548
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Was there an Interpol/international arrest warrant out for them??
    If not...it's hard to see how legally they would've arrested?

    Yes. The three were subject to an international arrest warrant since late 2013. The migrant crisis afforded them an opportunity to return to the EU.


  • #6549
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    questionmark? wrote: »
    A European passport, whatever the hell that is as I have never heard of a country called Europe, means sweet f all to a lot of people.

    If you look on the front of your passport it says "An tAontas Eorpach". We're part of the EU, so the Irish passport is considered a European passport, much like a French or a Italian one is also a European passport. Serbia would not be a European passport since they're not in the EU.


  • #6550
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    moneyman wrote: »
    What's the solution then? Don't let the Muslims in?

    Genuine question.

    I've stated this a few times before, but I'll state it again anyway.

    1. Stop taking migrants in from the Mediterranean.
    2. Increase funding for refugee camps in Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan et al.
    3. Set up off-shore processing centres (like the Australians).
    4. Those who fit the criteria or have skills we need (like doctors or software engineers or pharmacists) are brought over. Those who do not must leave.
    5. Those who enter Europe illegally should be deported as soon as their claim is assessed, none of this "I've failed 16 appeals so far but I'm launching another one anyway" bollocks.

    From there, we can invest in their economies - providing infrastructure or capital for small businesses to start operations.


    The one thing we don't want is flinging open the doors because some pox in Berlin wants to feel better about herself.


  • #6551
    IrishTrajan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭IrishTrajan


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is no ethnic requirement as regards French citizenship, nor is there a cultural one. It is not a state that operates on that basis. Creating criteria to disparage very large sections of its population strikes me as sectarian and divisive.

    That's exactly what it is. It's dividing people based on their ethnicity and cultural upbringing. Nobody is complaining about the Arabs who live as Westerners and want to live here, or the Muslim who drinks a pint in his local once a week and watches the hurling. The people we don't want are the ones who want Europe to give them everything and then they want Europe to change to suit them and be more like their home.


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  • #6552
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    IrishTrajan wrote: »
    That's exactly what it is. It's dividing people based on their ethnicity and cultural upbringing. Nobody is complaining about the Arabs who live as Westerners and want to live here, or the Muslim who drinks a pint in his local once a week and watches the hurling. The people we don't want are the ones who want Europe to give them everything and then they want Europe to change to suit them and be more like their home.

    ..............who are, in general, a tiny minority. One might think that given the amount of media coverage he's given, the likes of Anjem Choudray are representative. They aren't.


  • #6553
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Nodin wrote: »
    ..............who are, in general, a tiny minority. One might think that given the amount of media coverage he's given, the likes of Anjem Choudray are representative. They aren't.

    That he isn't 'representative' is hardly the point. He isn't interested in being representative, he's interested in being influential.

    While the media insist on dragging him on, and so cultivating his influence, they don't put words into his mouth. His poison is his own.

    For as long as the mass of peaceful Muslims remain silent about this scumbag and his ilk, the mass of Muslims are irrelevant.


  • #6554
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    That he isn't 'representative' is hardly the point. He isn't interested in being representative, he's interested in being influential.

    While the media insist on dragging him on, and so cultivating his influence, they don't put words into his mouth. His poison is his own.

    For as long as the mass of peaceful Muslims remain silent about this scumbag and his ilk, the mass of Muslims are irrelevant.

    And what do you suggest they do?


  • #6555
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,141 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Refugees should be refugees. Not economic migrants sailing away on rustbuckets and making the traffickers millions. That is what is happening now, and that is not good.

    So, why not say that every country in EU says, OK, I will take X from the refugee camps in Syria, Turkey wherever. Vetted, legit. OK by me.

    The rest who come by other routes. NO. We don't know who you are. And if you can afford to pay illegal traffickers there is something not right anyway.

    I would much prefer that those languishing in refugee camps were sorted. They are well looked after AFAIS, but given that they don't seem to have the resources to make millionaires out of illegal traffickers.... they deserve our kindest welcome. They are the genuine ones IMO. Have to wait to be saved. The rest don't need to wait, but are saved anyway as long as they don't drown on the way.

    There is a lot of wrongdoing going on re the refugees. We need to be upfront and acknowledge that.

    I despise the people trafickers. But I don't have much time for the people who use their services either.


  • #6556
    Sunflower 27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭Sunflower 27


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Refugees should be refugees. Not economic migrants sailing away on rustbuckets and making the traffickers millions. That is what is happening now, and that is not good.

    So, why not say that every country in EU says, OK, I will take X from the refugee camps in Syria, Turkey wherever. Vetted, legit. OK by me.

    The rest who come by other routes. NO. We don't know who you are. And if you can afford to pay illegal traffickers there is something not right anyway.

    I would much prefer that those languishing in refugee camps were sorted. They are well looked after AFAIS, but given that they don't seem to have the resources to make millionaires out of illegal traffickers.... they deserve our kindest welcome. They are the genuine ones IMO. Have to wait to be saved. The rest don't need to wait, but are saved anyway as long as they don't drown on the way.

    There is a lot of wrongdoing going on re the refugees. We need to be upfront and acknowledge that.

    I despise the people trafickers. But I don't have much time for the people who use their services either.

    I have serious empathy for anyone that will get into a 'rust bucket' and risk their life for a better future. I could not imagine being that desperate, but then I am one of the fortunate ones, I don't have to.


  • #6557
    stunmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 279 ✭✭stunmer


    Nodin wrote: »
    ..............who are, in general, a tiny minority. One might think that given the amount of media coverage he's given, the likes of Anjem Choudray are representative. They aren't.

    I'm not so sure about that. Check out these "Norwegians".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU


    I keep hearing that these people with outdated views are the "tiny minority". I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it anymore.


  • #6558
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Nodin wrote: »
    And what do you suggest they do?

    They should all go down the pub and have a few pints. Bring the missus.

    They should have Muslim Marriage Equality marches, Muslim LGBT marches, Ban the Burka marches, all of that.

    If that is outside the realms of what is acceptable to Islam, they should turn their backs on their silly belief system, and get into the 21st century. For their own sakes as well as everyone else's.

    'Go West', so to speak. IS it so much to ask ?


  • #6559
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    stunmer wrote: »
    I'm not so sure about that. Check out these "Norwegians".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU


    I keep hearing that these people with outdated views are the "tiny minority". I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it anymore.

    a sickening video…and minority or not, they certainly have wide support in the muslim community…and that is because the worst atrocities tend to be covered by mohammed’s teachings and example…


  • #6560
    alwald
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭alwald


    Any thoughts about this man and his comments


  • #6561
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    They should all go down the pub and have a few pints. Bring the missus.

    They should have Muslim Marriage Equality marches, Muslim LGBT marches, Ban the Burka marches, all of that.

    If that is outside the realms of what is acceptable to Islam, they should turn their backs on their silly belief system, and get into the 21st century. For their own sakes as well as everyone else's.

    'Go West', so to speak. IS it so much to ask ?

    But catholics, protestants, Jews and the non-religious aren't expected to back gay marriage or gay movements so why should they be? Are those who don't drink because of other religious reasons supposed to drink as well?
    wurzelbert wrote:
    a sickening video…and minority or not, they certainly have wide support in the muslim community…and that is because the worst atrocities tend to be covered by mohammed’s teachings and example…

    If they had "wide support" they wouldn't be a minority.


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  • #6562
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Nodin wrote: »
    But catholics, protestants, Jews and the non-religious aren't expected to back gay marriage or gay movements so why should they be? Are those who don't drink because of other religious reasons supposed to drink as well?

    Surely some of them must have minds of their own ?


  • #6563
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    Sunflower 27 wrote: »
    I have serious empathy for anyone that will get into a 'rust bucket' and risk their life for a better future. I could not imagine being that desperate, but then I am one of the fortunate ones, I don't have to.

    There are over two billion people today who live on $2 a day or less. Their life's would be infinitely better anywhere within the EU. How many should we take in?

    "Wanting a better life" should not give people carte Blanche to leave Turkey, enter Greece or Italy, leave the EU and enter Macedonia then Serbia, reenter the EU and travel through Hungary, Croatia, Slovenia and Austria until they get to Germany. "Wanting a better life" should not mean that people should be allowed saunter through various EU member states illegally.

    "Wanting a better life" - everyone wants a better life. It's not up to Europe to provide it for anyone and everyone who decides to come here. May I remind you that five people who entered Europe on a rust bucket "wanting a better life" went on to commit indiscriminate and wanton mass murder.

    This large scale unchecked and unvetted illegal immigration into Europe has to cease. If they "want a better life" they can go through the correct channels. Europe is not a global soup kitchen. No matter what some of our "leaders" living in exclusive and gated communíties may think.


  • #6564
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    Surely some of them must have minds of their own ?

    Of course they do.

    http://www.gcvi.ie/
    http://www.mpvusa.org/lgbtqi-resources/
    http://www.keshetonline.org/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6565
    opiniated
    Closed Accounts Posts: 889 ✭✭✭opiniated


    alwald wrote: »
    Any thoughts about this man and his comments

    Don't blame the Moslems, blame the Jews?

    We are responsible for all the troubles, because of the Governments we elect?

    Feck off! Most of us don't support war, of any kind. Or murder.

    There is some truth in what he says about foreign policy being an unmitigated disaster, however, there is also a lot of untruth in what he says.

    Christians are welcomed in Moslem Countries - some of them, certainly not all.

    Blaming the population of the West because of decisions taken by politicians/secret service agents, who neither ask, nor receive permission from their electorate for their foreign policy decisions?

    What about those of us who actively disagree with those policies, but are powerless to change them?

    He's just one more flavour of lack of objectivity or balance in his assessment.

    He actually makes the same mistake terrorists and right-wing nutjobs make: That of blaming entire sections of society for the actions of a minority.

    That will solve nothing.


  • #6566
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Nodin wrote: »
    But catholics, protestants, Jews and the non-religious aren't expected to back gay marriage or gay movements so why should they be?
    Actually they kinda are. Or at least are expected to go along with it. QV the recent marriage referendum and the dismissal, even bile fired at the religious types who were against it.
    If they had "wide support" they wouldn't be a minority.
    Support isn't that simple. You can have active support for such a culture(the minority) while you can have a much larger tacit support within the community(quite a lot more people).

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #6567
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    alwald wrote: »
    Any thoughts about this man and his comments

    Yes. Unfortunately, he holds Irish citizenship through descent. My thoughts are that we should stop giving out citizenship to nutjobs, be they Irish American or otherwise.


  • #6568
    Wurzelbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,804 ✭✭✭Wurzelbert


    Nodin wrote: »
    [...]

    If they had "wide support" they wouldn't be a minority.

    well yes, true if we count all sorts of tacit support…was thinking more of the active hate preachers, street fighters and potential ak47 wielders or suicide bombers, who are (hopefully) still a minority…


  • #6569
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    fed up sick and tired wrote: »
    Surely some of them must have minds of their own ?

    Near on 50% of French muslims are non practicing. Why are you shifting the goalposts?
    Wibbs wrote:

    Actually they kinda are.

    They were expected - at most - to stay out of the way. There was certainly no notion that their citizenship was at risk due to not signing up to a set of principles.
    Wibbs wrote:

    Support isn't that simple. You can have active support for such a culture(the
    minority) while you can have a much larger tacit support within the
    community(quite a lot more people).

    'There is but there isn't but there is' - the fact is that there is no evidence to show that theres widespread support for a terror campaign, by the rather obvious lack of sustained levels of violence. I'd suggest finding another windmill to tilt at.


  • #6570
    stunmer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 279 ✭✭stunmer


    alwald wrote: »
    Any thoughts about this man and his comments

    Conspiracy bollox


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  • #6571
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Of course they do.

    http://www.gcvi.ie/
    http://www.mpvusa.org/lgbtqi-resources/
    http://www.keshetonline.org/

    Excellent. One out of three is relevant, and virtually anonymous.

    Better than Noddy would have managed, all the same. But at least he recognised that I was talking about Muslims, not Catholics or any other god-botherers.

    (Just in case you start trying to slither in that direction.)
    Near on 50% of French muslims are non practicing.


    .


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