Star Trek Voyager - Is It That Bad?

Myrddin · 19-11-2015 10:51pm #1

So, just finished season 1 of Voyager there (I've watched the show several times, & am very familiar with it). It struck me though, it's actually a very strong first season by Star Trek standards:

Season 1
Caretaker - Out of the three 'modern' era Trek shows, Caretaker strikes me as a very strong pilot episode (if not the strongest). Farpoint & Emissary were weak enough shows, I felt Caretaker (while still being raw & 'weak' in a sense), has aged quite well & holds up even today. The sky was the limit with the show back then, & there were endless possibilities.

Parallax - This episode is to Voyager, what "Where Silence Has Lease" is to TNG. I'm partial to 'space anomaly' episodes, and given this was very early days, it's decent to be fair.

Time and Again - An interest concept for an episode, executed fairly well and enjoyable enough.

Phage - We're introduced to the Vidiians. A sinister, scary, medically advanced race that harvest organs. Scary stuff, and again, the possibilities were big with the concept of this race. An enjoyable episode.

The Cloud - "There's cofee in that nebula!". A passable episode. Reminds me of 'Galaxy's Child' (the ship damages a life form & must fix it). Not great, but again, by other shows first season standards this is certainly nowhere near rock bottom.

Eye of the Needle - A very good episode I thought. A wormhole allows communication to the Alpha Quadrant, but it's with the Alpha Quadrant from 30 years back. Nice to see the Romulans make an appearance, and a dark enough ending to boot.

Ex Post Facto - Not the best, and again more plot recycling (TNG A Matter of Perspective). Fairly well executed, if not mundane.

Emanations - Good Trek type episode, exploring the concept of life after death, crisis of faith, and enthanasia. I enjoyed this one

Prime Factors - Another good episode, shows the divide in Maquis crew members, & the longing even for Starfleet crew to get home (they take desperate action to procure technology).

State of Flux - Another good decent episode, the Kazon spy is flushed out.

Heroes and Demons - For me, the worst episode of the season by far. I've quite jaded with holodeck episodes, and particularly period ones to boot. Poor stuff here.

Cathexis - Meh, not great but not completely dreadful either.

Faces - More Vidiians, they split B'Elanna into two people. Good 'prison' type episode though.

Jetrel - Pretty strong episode here I felt. It deals with genocide, wmd usage, redemption, & had James Sloyan in it as Jetrel (he also played Admiral Jarok in The Defector) who's brilliant.

Learning Curve - A weak enough ending to the season, and it attempted to tackle the maquis/starfleet integration problem. It handled it poorly enough I thought, & was far too idealistic

By & large, as Trek shows go, that's not a bad season at all. One or two stinkers, & the rest were passable to decent to strong.

Kiith · 20-11-2015 11:14am

It was decent in it's first year, and as it went on it's good episodes got very good, but it's bad episodes got bloody awful. There were some truly awful ones in there. Also, it's characters for me are no where near as good as either TNG or DS9.

It gets a lot of **** these days, but overall i'm just disappointed at the missed opportunity. It could have been so much better.

MarkR · 20-11-2015 11:16am

I'd rewatch for T-Pal in decontamination.

helimachoptor · 20-11-2015 11:24am

Myrddin wrote: »

So, just finished season 1 of Voyager there (I've watched the show several times, & am very familiar with it). It struck me though, it's actually a very strong first season by Star Trek standards:

1 & 2) Caretaker - Out of the three 'modern' era Trek shows, Caretaker strikes me as a very strong pilot episode (if not the strongest). Farpoint & Emissary were weak enough shows, I felt Caretaker (while still being raw & 'weak' in a sense), has aged quite well & holds up even today. The sky was the limit with the show back then, & there were endless possibilities.

Good idea, poor poor execution
Even poorer follow up with the caretakers buddy/mate

3) Parallax - This episode is to Voyager, what "Where Silence Has Lease" is to TNG. I'm partial to 'space anomaly' episodes, and given this was very early days, it's decent to be fair.

Wasnt a huge fan on this ep angry klingon rara gets promoted etc etc

4) Time and Again - An interest concept for an episode, executed fairly well and enjoyable enough.

Very good ep

5) Phage - We're introduced to the Vidiians. A sinister, scary, medically advanced race that harvest organs. Scary stuff, and again, the possibilities were big with the concept of this race. An enjoyable episode.

Again really good idea, the split ship ep is up there with my favorites in voyager but they were underused and ultimately lost their threat credibility

6) The Cloud - "There's cofee in that nebula!". A passable episode. Reminds me of 'Galaxy's Child' (the ship damages a life form & must fix it). Not great, but again, by other shows first season standards this is certainly nowhere near rock bottom.

Less said about this the better...

7) Eye of the Needle - A very good episode I thought. A wormhole allows communication to the Alpha Quadrant, but it's with the Alpha Quadrant from 30 years back. Nice to see the Romulans make an appearance, and a dark enough ending to boot.
Very good ep

8) Ex Post Facto - Not the best, and again more plot recycling (TNG A Matter of Perspective). Fairly well executed, if not mundane.

As you say, stick in Riker and its a TNG ep

9) Emanations - Good Trek type episode, exploring the concept of life after death, crisis of faith, and enthanasia. I enjoyed this one

Really like this

10) Prime Factors - Another good episode, shows the divide in Maquis crew members, & the longing even for Starfleet crew to get home (they take desperate action to procure technology).
I liked this, and the Tuvok aspect

11) State of Flux - Another good decent episode, the Kazon spy is flushed out.
Probably in my top 5

12) Heroes and Demons - For me, the worst episode of the season by far. I've quite jaded with holodeck episodes, and particularly period ones to boot. Poor stuff here.

13) Cathexis - Meh, not great but not completely dreadful either.
Agree

14) Faces - More Vidiians, they split B'Elanna into two people. Good 'prison' type episode though.
Interesting approach, taking the chaps face was pretty cool

15) Jetrel - Pretty strong episode here I felt. It deals with genocide, wmd usage, redemption, & had James Sloyan in it as Jetrel (he also played Admiral Jarok in The Defector) who's brilliant.
Great in the defector, very good in this

16) Learning Curve - A weak enough ending to the season, and it attempted to tackle the maquis/starfleet integration problem. It handled it poorly enough I thought, & was far too idealistic.

Agree, but i enjoyed it

By & large, as Trek shows go, that's not a bad season at all. One or two stinkers, & the rest were passable to decent to strong.

Voyager is my least fav..

helimachoptor · 20-11-2015 11:25am

MarkR wrote: »

I'd rewatch for T-Pal in decontamination.

wrong show man :pac:

MarkR · 20-11-2015 3:08pm

Oh yeah. Scarlet for me. This thread is now about Enterprise. Specifically T'Pal getting all sweaty.

Kirby · 21-11-2015 9:08am

Voyager had some fantastic episodes. It was a good show and undeserving of the flak it gets.

If somebody wants to tell me they watched a ton of episodes and still thought it was terrible, I'll hear them out and their arguments for it. Frankly I'm of the opinion that the people who hated it or think it was bad didnt watch enough of it to have an informed opinion.

Myrddin · 21-11-2015 11:55am

Kirby wrote: »

Frankly I'm of the opinion that the people who hated it or think it was bad didnt watch enough of it to have an informed opinion.

I'd say there is an element of that for sure, I'd say too though that there's a lot of resentment for what the should could have been. When you consider the endless possibilities the writers had, and then look at the direction the show took...it probably changes the perception of the show for many, and instead of watching a decent or good episode, many see a wasted opportunity, where it could have been brilliant or fantastic.

beauf · 21-11-2015 12:17pm

I liked Voyager. I couldn't stand the Janeway character. Ruined it for me. When Janway wasn't central to a storyline I think it worked much better.

degrassinoel · 21-11-2015 2:23pm

I liked Janeway, she was a strong character, it was the show itself i didn't like, and some of the other main characters were just appalling (Neelix, Torres, Chakotay and Kim and the borg kids.. ffs!)

I reckon Janeway and the EMH were the only reason i kept watching it til the end

TheIrishGrover · 21-11-2015 2:30pm

I watched all of Voyager. Terrible terrible show:

The Doctor what the only likable character in the whole show, and even him only sometimes.
Terrible terrible Bareshaven Holodeck episodes.
Warp 10 slugs
Janeway's very very VERY annoying voice/mannerisms,
Everyone making a big deal about how progressive it was that the captain was a woman. Big woop! Geordie's mother was a captain
No long-term ramifications of episodes. Everything ended with the Big Red Reset Button (Year of Hell).
Nelix
Tuvok Meant Torres "I'm an angry 1/2 Klingon and that's my entire character"
Chacotay's spiritual Indian stereotype/music/mystic animal
Janeyway's unreasonable insistence to stick to the Prime Directive/Temporal Prime Directive only to say "F*ck it, I'll do it anyway" in the end.
Poor-man's Klingon: Kazon
What they did to Q
Completely emasculating the Borg. Remember how intimidating they were in TNG? How one Cube destroyed everyone at Wolf 359. Seems they defeated them single-handily beat them every week by the end
Sarah Silverman
The fact Janeway became an admiral!!!!!!

nyarlothothep · 21-11-2015 3:02pm

I agree with everything from the above although Tuvok wasn't that annoying. Voyager was incredibly dull, it's just boring. I pretty much hate the holodeck episodes and also the episodes where they use symbolic representations of powerful aliens ie setting in some Californian countryside with people serving apple pie because they didn't have the budget for anything else. But worst of all I really hated the smugness of the show. Voyager never gets damaged, Janeway is always right in her most morally dubious decisions and she solves everything through brute force rather than intellect. For example when she commands the crew to fly through a binary star which will likely tear the ship apart to get rid of the parasitic aliens or that episode where she just runs through fire and gets third degree burns when she could have thought of a more intelligent solution (and then she's magically healed by the doctor). She's also a micromanager from hell and politician/favourer, not someone who rewards people on the basis of merit. If that were the case Harry Kim would have received a few promotions but instead we have Neelix at the board meetings, a chef?! In TNG the admiralty were short sighted assholes so it's not surprising Janeway got promoted, I hated seeing her giving Picard orders in Insurrection or was it Nemesis? To sum up, if you put Voyager in the BSG universe, and made it abide by BSG rules ie no magic (technobabble) solutions it would be annihilated in the first minute. Neelix would try to establish diplomatic relations with the Cylons and they would be blown out of the sky in 10 seconds.

beauf · 21-11-2015 3:05pm

Its a very long time since I watched. From flawed memory, Janeway IMO was basically a bully. Her usual character trait was stick to some daft rule causing an trail of misery ironing all good advice, overruling everyone until near disaster. When it all worked out in the end. Then sit back smugly oblivious to the carnage she'd created. I think that's why so many of the other characters didn't work. They all had fit around Janeway personality. So they were very one dimensional.

helimachoptor · 21-11-2015 3:08pm

Kirby wrote: »

Voyager had some fantastic episodes. It was a good show and undeserving of the flak it gets.

If somebody wants to tell me they watched a ton of episodes and still thought it was terrible, I'll hear them out and their arguments for it. Frankly I'm of the opinion that the people who hated it or think it was bad didnt watch enough of it to have an informed opinion.

Like all the series, i've seen all of the VOY episodes several times, both on TV and then binge watching, for me its not that it in itself is bad, but when you stack it up against the other series its bad.

beauf · 21-11-2015 3:14pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

... it would be annihilated in the first minute. Neelix would try to establish diplomatic relations with the Cylons and they would be blown out of the sky in 10 seconds.

You forgot Janeway accidentally being launched in to space while inspecting a airlock.

WhatAMelon · 22-11-2015 12:08am

Voyager had Nazis, flogged time travel until it was absolutely meaningless, emasculated the borg and Voyager just took 6 years to get home - which just about every starship does.

But it wasn't half bad in places. It was a TNG redux only weaker as the writers became very jaded.

Tuvok and Seven are strong characters. Mixed views about the Doctor and Janeway. The others are OK but ho-hum enough.

bilbot79 · 22-11-2015 12:13am

3/4 of the way through it gets incredibly lame but outside of that its great

Justin Credible Darts · 22-11-2015 12:26am

in comparison to ds9 its sucks, and not as good as tng, but if you do what I did and keep your expectations low like i also did with enterprise you will find its a lot better than you think.

KingBrian2 · 22-11-2015 12:42am

I really liked Voyager, not as good as DS9 but it was a great series.

nyarlothothep · 22-11-2015 1:44am

beauf wrote: »

You forgot Janeway accidentally being launched in to space while inspecting a airlock.

For idealists turned semi-despots give me President Roselyn any day over Janeway, amazing character.

robertobennini · 23-11-2015 2:09pm

Voyager was enjoyable when it hit its stride and was a nice counterbalance to the dark Dominion stuff on DS9. That said, I always think Chakotay and Harry Kim are probably the two dullest, most uninteresting main characters ever featured on a Star Trek show.

Beefy78 · 23-11-2015 3:19pm

It is really not a good show. At all. I watched it at the time because it was Star Trek and I loved Star Trek. I watched it since because it was Star Trek and I loved Star Trek and I'm rewatching it now because it is Star Trek. On its own merits there's nothing there to redeem it, for me.

There's the odd highlight along the way but in the most part it is just a really poor TV show.

elekid · 23-11-2015 3:43pm

I enjoyed Voyager at the time and have fond memories of it but looking back would agree it's frustrating how much potential was wasted and how many mistakes were made with it.

From reading about it recently (on TvTropes) it seems like there were a lot of problems behind the scenes.

seamus · 23-11-2015 3:57pm

I think what irked people the most was a tendancy to flog some of the popular themes like the Borg and Time Travel to improve ratings. But in the process made a complete joke of them. Seven was an unsubtle ploy to put a "Sexy Data" character into the show, but all credit to Jeri Ryan, the first couple of seasons after she joined have most of the best episodes and in many of the episodes she's the strongest performer.

There was also too much focus on mysticism and hazy sci-fi. So TNG had the episode at the edge of the universe with Picard's mother, but even that was basing it on a whole mind/matter shift, Picard's mother wasn't actually there. Voyager sticks in a whole plot where everyone is trapped in a shared dream and Chakotay saves everyone with some ancient Indian meditation techniques. C'mon.

And the lazy shifts in technology, overly convenient plot devices. Like nerfing the Borg with species 8472, who "can't be assimilated". And then nerfing species 8472 who happen to be susceptible to Borg nanotechnology, but only when it's been hacked by the Voyager crew. After that, the Borg were pretty pathetic. As said, they annihilate an entire fleet at Wolf 359, and in the intervening years somehow a lone ship in Borg space manages to gain a technological upper hand and evade the Borg?
The episode with the fake Starship and quantum slipstream technology actually exposes this - a technologically superior species failed to evade the Borg to the point that only one person from the entire species survived with one ship, yet Voyager manages to come through with 99% of her crew as well as a pile of new technology? It seemed that in Voyager they discarded the "adaptation" aspect of the Borg and decided that the Borg were only able to use technology that they had assimilated. Even though it was the adaptation that made them so terrifying in the first place.

And then pissing all over concepts like warp 10, of course. Just because, no real justification or science behind it except, "we're in the Delta Quadrant now where things are different".

There were plenty of good concepts there - the Vidiians had the potential to be a fierce, Borg-like enemy that stalked the Voyager crew for at least 3 seasons, but they were quite underused. The Hirogen likewise.
The dinosaur species wasn't a bad idea, but again the science was iffy. Some species developed spacefaring technology at least 65 million years ago and left the earth - their level of technological advancement should be off the charts, literally appearing as magic to the humans. But in Voyager they were portrayed maybe 1,000 years ahead, at best. Cloaking individuals and being able to transport starships, big whoop.

Despite the somewhat dodgy premise, I think the Capt. Ransom storyline is the Voyager that should have been. A little more Kirk and a little less Picard and quite a bit more darkness. When Janeway bent the rules, she bent them because it was the right thing to do. If she had been a little darker and more selfish now and again, breaking the rules to save her crew above saving another species, I think it would have been a very different series.

robertobennini · 23-11-2015 5:06pm

I liked when the Doctor was painting Seven of Nine in the nude.

ceekay74 · 23-11-2015 5:35pm

Definitely had more boring episodes than TNG or DS9, but I enjoyed it anyway.

I hated Neelix though. The Jar-Jar Binks of Voyager.

Tom Paris was a twat.

Chakotay & Torres were pretty one-dimensional characters.

Naomi Wildman was irritating for some reason.

I thought that The Doctor, Seven, & Tuvoc were excellent characters.

Everyone else was ok.

IvySlayer · 25-11-2015 4:27pm

seamus wrote: »

Despite the somewhat dodgy premise, I think the Capt. Ransom storyline is the Voyager that should have been. A little more Kirk and a little less Picard and quite a bit more darkness. When Janeway bent the rules, she bent them because it was the right thing to do. If she had been a little darker and more selfish now and again, breaking the rules to save her crew above saving another species, I think it would have been a very different series.

Well the annoying thing is they did it with Year of Hell which were fantastic episodes

Janeway killing Tuvik, which I think was wrong but understand why she did it, a great moral episode, she made a decision not about ethics but about surviving the delta quadrant

Kirby · 28-11-2015 10:55pm

seamus wrote: »

After that, the Borg were pretty pathetic. As said, they annihilate an entire fleet at Wolf 359, and in the intervening years somehow a lone ship in Borg space manages to gain a technological upper hand and evade the Borg? .

I think thats not really accurate. The borg were largely a mystery at wolf 359. Thats what made them so devastating. It had been years since then, and the federation had learned a lot. More so, Sevens parents knew more about the borg than anybody else and Voyager had that knowledge.

On top of that, Voyager could have been annihilated a dozen times by the borg and the show went to lengths to explain that. The only reason they stayed alive originally was because Janeway struck a deal. Not because they could defeat the borg....the borg needed the doctors solution to 8472. And the reason they werent immediately destroyed afterwards was Kes throwing them outside borg space. Convenient plot device? Absolutely but they didnt "beat" the borg....they just ran away.

After that, the only reason that voyager wasnt destroyed was because Seven was on board and the Queen wanted her. And even after that they let Voyager go to keep Seven on side. The only time Voyager actually "beat" the borg on the show involves smaller vessels like spheres, or use viruses and deception like on TNG.

Yes, the borg were defanged a little during the show but not to the extent some people claim. Voyager never actually defeats the borg until the final episode. Up to that point they merely survive them.

Nonoperational · 29-11-2015 12:00am

Personally, liked it a lot.

DivingDuck · 29-11-2015 12:09am

It didn't have the plot cohesiveness of DS9, but it had some of the best characters, and character relationships. Janeway, Seven, Tuvok, and the Doctor were all brilliant. It also explored some really interesting themes relating to personal identity, responsibility, and accountability.

It's been years since I watched it; I really should make an effort to re-watch some time.

Myrddin · 27-12-2015 7:20pm

Finished Season now, and again, a very decent showing by all accounts. TNG season 2 certainly wasn't as strong as this, and there were a few gems within (obviously a few stinkers too).

Season 2
The 37's - Not the best for a season opener, & at times it felt very much like TNG's 'The Neutral Zone'. It didn't offer much in the way of developing the overall series arc, and just felt like a run of the mill episode that could have been part of any Trek show (nothing specific to Voyager/Delta Quadrant).

Initiations - Not a terrible episode, it's nice to glean some cultural insight into the Kazon (their rights of initiation, the pressure on young males etc).

Projections - I liked this one, the Doctor was very good in it & the episode keeps you guess as to what's real and what's part of the holodeck. As holodeck episodes go, this could be the best one of any Trek show?

Elogium - Meh, average to poor. Episodes with Kes & Neelix at centre stage tend not to fare too well.

Non Sequitur - I liked this one too (I have a fondness for weird episodes). Kim was very good in it, and it was nice to set an episode off the ship for a change.

Twisted - This was interesting, good, but could have been better. Another 'weird' episode, but the ending was disappointing.

Parturition - Tensions between Paris & Neelix over Kes A decent enough episode, but yet again all's well that ends well.

Persistence of Vision - Another decent to middling episode, delusions brought on by Bothan aliens. This probably had potential to be a very good episode, more akin to TNG's 'Schisms', but in the end ot felt a bit neutered.

Tattoo - Chakotay meets the Sky People. I actually don't mind all the Chakotay stuff, so wasn't too bothered by this. A koo chee moya.

Cold Fire - They meet the Caretaker's malevolent mate. Not bad, they successfully gave Susperia a sinister feel, but they could have done more with it. It sewed the seeds for developing Kes's mental abilities later on.

Maneuvers - More Kazon stuff, this time stealing transporter tech.

Resistance - Tuvok & Torres are captured and accused of being terrorists. Fair weak enough episode.

Prototype - An interesting one, a shame these robots weren't made a bigger deal out of, perhaps forming a two or three episode arc. Their ships were huge, so could have been a big challenge for Voyager.

Alliances - Janeway tries to eventually form an alliance, in order to defend agaisnt the Kazon attacks, and ends up finding out about the Trabe etc. It puts the Kazon in a new light, but it's hard to shake off them being tokentistic bad guys at this stage.

Threshold - Warp 10, & lizard babies! Poorly executed episode, it shouldn't have involved warp 10...but could have been explained some other way.

Meld - Suder is a great character (made possible by the great Brad Dourif). Russ is also excellent here as Tuvok.

Dreadnought - Passable episode, nice to see some Cardie tech again

Death Wish - A great concept to explore for Trek (suicide), but very poorly done I felt. I'm not a big fan of the non TNG Q eps.

Lifesigns - Without a doubt, the poorest most boring episode of the entire season (contender for top three worst episode overall).

Investigations - Enjoyed this, the Kazon mole is hunted out.

Deadlock - Every time I see the Vidiians, I see wasted opportunity. They could have been an all time great 'villain' race, and terrifying to boot (harvesting organs from live people!). More underutilisation here.

Innocence - Abandoned children turn out to be elderly people who just age backwards. An interesting concept, likely could have been better executed though.

The Thaw - Loved this, 'fear' was very well done.

Tuvix - Wow, what an episode. Brilliantly 'Trek' in its execution, and the moral quandary Janeway is placed in is one I still can't reconcile (having watched this episode umpteen times over the last 20 years).

Resolutions I like this too, it touches on the almost taboo relationship between Chakotay & Janeway. Interesting to see how Tuvok handles command also.

Basics, Part 1 - The Kazon take Voyager. Decent cliffhanger ending

Beefy78 · 27-12-2015 8:20pm

Tuvix is one of my favourite Trek episodes and one which I really wish they'd have harked back to occasionally like Trek sometimes did with The Inner Light. I don't remember enjoying any other episode in that season when I recently rewatched tbh.

Myrddin · 27-12-2015 10:48pm

Beefy78 wrote: »

Tuvix is one of my favourite Trek episodes and one which I really wish they'd have harked back to occasionally like Trek sometimes did with The Inner Light. I don't remember enjoying any other episode in that season when I recently rewatched tbh.

Probably showing my age here but I remember having that episode recorded on VHS yonks ago & it had a different name...it displayed as 'Symbiogenesis', so they must have changed the name for the dvd's

degrassinoel · 27-12-2015 11:01pm

I remember watching it on sky when they showed it for the first time, i honestly thought they were going to call him TwoLicks

They really should have kept him instead of Neelix - so ye lose Tuvok too, big deal

Yeah the Meld episode was great though, isnt that the one were Tuvok fantasizes about throttling Neelix? Hah, that's not the only reason i liked it but it really helped.

Rawr · 30-12-2015 2:08pm

Voyager for me was for the most part a fairly competent Trek show, which unfortunately happened at roughly the same point where Rick Berman's stewardship of the franchise had started to damage it heavily.

I strongly felt back then (and even now), that after many years of success with TNG, and also DS9, Berman & Co. had started to sit upon their laurels, and were getting comfortable there. Recycling of TNG plots, and dull execution of characters and concepts in places gave the impression of a staff that was kind of 'phoning it in'. No need to work too hard afterall. The Trekkies will keep watching....they always had.

However there was plenty to like about the show. But alas for everything good I often felt a lot of frustration attached to some many missed or underused opportunities.

The Concept
Voyager was likely an attempt to get back to the old 'Where no-one has gone before' swashbuckling of the classic trek days. They wussed out however, and stayed in the fairly safe confines of a TNG-style story. Like many have said before 'Year of Hell' is what the show should have been. The original plan for Year of Hell was actually an entire season. But alas, they wussed out there too, and made it a two-parter (was still good though). Year of Hell, is that the entire show should have been. It would have made for an incredibly gripping series.

The Villians
Again like many have said, The Vidians were an excellent villain. When they were first introduced they felt even more chilling than the Borg. An enemy that would literally gut you for parts Now that is scary! Woefully underused in favor of the poor-man's Klingon-clone, the Kazon.

I remember Species 8472 being hyped up as 'even scarier than the Borg'. They did not live up to that hype and were kind of done for me as a threat when their master attack plan for the Federation involved one of them pretending to be 'Boothby'.

I goes without saying that Voyager diluted the threat of the Borg. A lot of that was down to Seven, but a succession very silly Borg defeats kind of finished them off. Their defeat in the finale was no surprise.

The Characters
Janeway was 'OK' as captain. A bit annoying at times, but OK, and in some cases the best of the bunch. Many of the others were annoying as hell and just plain 'Meh'. Tuvok was fairly strong, and Seven was occasionally strong (however Jeri Ryan had to get through a lot of hammy lines to get there, Seven was not scripted well). The Doctor was also pretty good. But you could throw Kim, Paris, Chakotay & Torres into a big blender for all I cared character-wise. There just wasn't much going for them.

As mentioned earlier Neelix was Jar-Jar Binks, and his inclusion in stories was often inexplicable at times. Kes had the impact of a very damp biscuit and would often have little more than token lines in most episodes. Her replacement with Seven made a lot of sense.

What really annoyed the be-jasus out of me was Naomi Wildman. Weasley Crusher is all but forgiven now in my books thanks the inclusion of Wildman and her perpetual threat to become the 'Captains Assistant'. Thankfully that never happened, but she appeared none-the-less, often with Neelix or Borg-children in tow. I often failed to see the point of her, beyond showing how much time had passed. The girl's extremely cheesy acting routinely devastated any scene she was involved in.

The Delivery
As I mentioned earlier, I had a feeling that Berman's tenure as Trek chief was starting to wreck the franchise while Voyager was running. I felt that this was particularly acute during the last 2 seasons of Voyager. Up until that point I had been a religious viewer of new trek episodes, and had regularly watched both Voyager and DS9 every week.

While DS9 had the excitement of the Dominion War going on, Voyager was messing about with very stale and rehashed material. There was occasional good stuff, but for the most part there was little of substance, and seasons also included the single most rage-inducing examples of twee Irish-Americana ever to pollute my senses. (You know the episodes I'm talking about...)

My desire to follow the show evaporated and I feel that was down to the ever decreasing quality of the show. The same actually happened for me during the last season of DS9 too. Although they would still do excellent war-drama, they would often wreck the flow of things by making episodes that focus on a Holodeck Lounge singer (who said 'pal-y' far too often).

Entire franchise really seemed to be on its way out at this stage, especially given that the Star Trek feature film of the time was the truly abysmal 'Insurrection'. The fact that Enterpise lasted as long as it did was a surprise, especially since it too suffered from a lot of the same problems as Voyager.

Voyager's ending was a bit flat as well, and if it weren't for Nemesis it would have also been our final look at the TNG universe, which is kind of sad.

Was Voyager bad? As a whole, no it was not bad. Thoughout its run it had a lot going for it. However, was Voyager good? Again, the answer was no. Lazy writing a production values stole what potential it had to be a *great* show. So it's not bad...but it could have been great....

bilbot79 · 30-12-2015 2:29pm

The worst thing that happened in Voyager was the discovery of Seven and the Doctoers' singing voices

Myrddin · 30-12-2015 2:37pm

Rawr wrote: »

So it's not bad...but it could have been great....

That's essentially it. I'm on Season 3 at the mo, & it's a step backwards compared to 1 & 2. Overall, there's been very, very little focus on just how far away from home they are...no focus on isolation, on pulling together for survival, on the enormous journey ahead of them. It's just TNG on a different ship. Voyager could have been so, so good.

livinginkorea · 30-12-2015 3:37pm

bilbot79 wrote: »

The worst thing that happened in Voyager was the discovery of Seven and the Doctoers' singing voices

Disagree, thought Seven was a good addition to the cast and allowed them to find out more about the Borg. The Doctor singing was more for humor but was not so cringe-worthy as I remember.

The worst thing about Voyager was the constant resetting back to normal after every episode or two. After watching DS9 with some great stories and character development, I wasn't ready to go back to reduced story arcs but still enjoyed watching Voyager once I got my head around that.

Beefy78 · 30-12-2015 4:08pm

Naomi Wildman never bothered me at all. I liked the idea that she was born on Voyager and was symbolic of their new life there - RDM used a similar idea in Battlestar Galactica. Wesley annoyed me because he shouldn't have been there.

Voyager was a crew on a journey which might have lasted four generations, on a relatively small ship. Having kids around and introuducing them into the inner-workings of the ship early actually makes sense.

Myrddin · 24-01-2016 9:03pm

Season three was pretty poor, by comparison to seasons one and two. There are literally a handful of good episodes, vastly outnumbered by boring/passable/middling episodes. The show has definitely found its feet by now, but the writing is so safe and weak at times. Thankfully, I think things pick up after this season, but yeah, three has been the worst so far.

Basics, Part II -Goodbye to the Kazon, & Seska (though Seska's death was pitiful). Paris retaking Voyager with a shuttlecraft is stretching credibility too to say the least!

Flashback - Very nice to see the Excelsior again, but as an episode, meh. Credit for the stage & set designs too, but on the whole, a dull enough showing.

The Chute - I like this one, close, tense and reminds me a little of No Escape (Ray Liotta, 1994).

The Swarm - A very by the numbers episode, nothing of any note really at all in it.

False Profits - The two Ferengi trapped in the Delta Quadrant, as a result of the TNG episode featuring the Barzan Wormhole. I want to like this episode, but there's something about it that's just, well, boring.

Remember - Not a bad episode really, takes a while to get going but plays out well enough.

Sacred Ground - Another middling/boring episode, Kes injured = spiritual ritual for Janeway in order to save her.

Future's End - Kinda ok, some bad, some decent bits. Not much else to say about it other than the mobile emitter for the Doc.

Warlord - This reminds me a little of DS9's "The Passenger". Kes is no warlord though!

The Q and the Grey - Q outside of TNG just doesn't work.

Macrocosm - Voyagers answer to TNG's "Genesis", except nowhere near as good.

Fair Trade - Neelix feels his usefulness is at an end, as they've reached as far out as he's ever got. I kinda like Neelix, there, I said it.

Alter Ego - Ugh, a holodeck episode. Harry falls in love...next!

Coda - Not bad this one, aliens that inhabit Janeway's mind at the point of death. Somewhat like DS9's "Distant Voices", but again, not as good.

Blood Fever - Vorik goes through the Pon Farr, and 'infects' Torres with it. The beginnings of Torres & Paris' relationship are seen here, plus, the first Borg in Voyager is seen at the end of the episode.

Unity - Poor enough episode, barring the scenes on the Borg Cube.

Darkling - The Doctor accidentally turns himself into a mad man, by messing about with his programming. Kes considers leaving Voyager for some alien guy. Next!

Rise - I like this one, there's something close & tense about the orbital tether idea. Neelix finally cracks at Tuvok.

Favorite Son - I liked this one too, it seemed like an original idea for once. Harry discovers he's actually not human, & finds his home planet..only to realise it was an elaborate ruse.

Before and After - Another decent episode, Kes is travelling back in time.

Real Life - The Doctor's holographic family. Passable episode.

Distant Origin - Apart from the concept, the execution of the episode was good. Dinosaurs didn't go extinct, they just built spaceships & disappeared into space! (without leaving any traces of technology behind)

Displaced - The crew begins to disappear, being replaced by aliens who claim to not know why...but they really do, those sneaky aliens. Meh, ok, not bad, not great.

Worst Case Scenario - Good episode, holographic simulation about a Maquis conspiracy take over of Voyager.

Scorpion - Janeway makes a deal with the Borg, & we get Species 8472 plus Seven of Nine

Rawr · 26-01-2016 11:39am

Myrddin wrote: »

Season three was pretty poor, by comparison to seasons one and two. There are literally a handful of good episodes, vastly outnumbered by boring/passable/middling episodes. The show has definitely found its feet by now, but the writing is so safe and weak at times. Thankfully, I think things pick up after this season, but yeah, three has been the worst so far.

Defiantly agree. I do remember my interest peaking at this time, especially with the various references to the Borg, and the buildup to us meeting them again.

Before this season aired on Sky, I had already watched First Contact in the cinema and I was curious about what had happened to the collective. Scorpion did make for a decent finale, and Species 8472 were pretty good that this point (before being ruined later).

I think the whole Kes & Neelix relationship somehow emploded off-screen during this season. Kes didn't seem to have any issues with fecking off from Voyager without him, and they really didn't seem to be written as a couple by this season. Although I cared very little for them, I did find it odd that such a thing would happen without it being written into an episode. Given the amount of TNG rehashing they were doing, I would have reconed that they could fit in some original character development.

Or was a break-up too far from their writing comfort zone?

Beefy78 · 26-01-2016 1:53pm

I'm sure they formally split up on camera. Maybe I'm imagining it.

The Borg's appearance at this stage of the show was really good and I remember finding the pre-credit scene on Scorpion to be genuinely jaw-dropping. At that point they'd had the difficult couple of early seasons that both TNG and DS9 had lived through and I really thought at that point that Voyager was about to kick-on from there.

Beefy78 · 26-01-2016 1:53pm

Double-post

Myrddin · 26-01-2016 5:03pm

Kes & Neelix did break up on screen, but it was handled incredibly poorly. Kes tells Neelix that maybe it'd be best if they both took some time apart etc...then literally a few scenes later she's firing a phaser at security in an attempt to get off the ship. It turns out she had been overtaken by someone else's mind (a carbon copy of DS9's "The Passenger"), and was some kind of famous warlord.

The timeline of events suggest that is was this warlord who said to Neelix, through Kes, about breaking up...not actually Kes herself. An episode or two later, & indeed it seems they had broken up. Really poorly done.

And again, I actually like Neelix (yeah, I went there). There is more to him than the constantly jovial chef he portrays. When he felt his usefulness had run out on Voyager once they reached the Nekrit Expanse, it showed that there was more to him as he had been worrying, not wanting to let the crew and Janeway down etc. The episode where he died, & Seven brought him back (Season 4) is excellent too, and develops him more. The writers, again, just failed to capitalise on all these things, & he'll forever be remembered as a joke character.

Beefy78 · 26-01-2016 5:30pm

I like Neelix. He's nowhere near the top of my 'least liked character' list in Voyager. I've never really got the hatred.

Thargor · 26-01-2016 5:38pm

beauf wrote: »

You forgot Janeway accidentally being launched in to space while inspecting a airlock.

What ep was that, totally passed me by somehow...

Myrddin · 06-02-2016 8:40pm

Season 4 done, and it's a dramatic improvement over season 3.

Scorpion, Part II - Enjoyable conclusion to the Scorpion two parter. Shows the rift between Janeway and Chakotay nicely too, and their conflict with regard how to proceed.

The Gift - I liked this one too, it was a good send off for Kes, and interesting how her mental abilities developed. Shot in the arm getting 10k light years knocked off the trip too.

Day of Honor - Enjoyable episode, the relationship between Tom & B'Elanna is started, and we finally see a starship who's warp core ejection system actually works!

Nemesis - The first half of this episode really drags, the second half is much better. There's a fantastic twist in it too.

Revulsion - Excellent episode about a homicidal hologram, so very well played by Leland Orser.

The Raven - A bit of a throwback to TNG's "Brothers" episode, not bad, not great.

Scientific Method - Good episode, the crew are being subjected to experiments by invisible aliens.

Year of Hell - Fantastic episode, but jeez, that ending/reset, ugh.

Random Thoughts - B'Elanna is locked up for having violent thoughts on some planet. Turns out, it was someone else selling those emotions & the effects were spreading throughout the community. Not great.

Concerning Flight - I'm not a fan of this one, not exactly sure why, but no, slow, boring, and uninteresting. Could be because of the hologram Da Vinci...he's quite annoying (and I like Davies as an actor!)

Mortal Coil - Neelix is killed and brought back several hours later by Seven. Fantastic episode, really gives Neelix some much needed development, and his struggles as a result are very well portrayed.

Waking Moments - Aliens inhabiting dreams, it's decent enough tbh.

Message in a Bottle - Loved this one, who doesn't! The Prometheus is a class act, though blowing up Romulan Warbirds with two torpedoes is abit ott.

Hunters - Great Hirogen episode, man those guys are BIG! Plus, Tony Todd!

Prey - More of the same, the Hirogen are an interesting new foe.

Retrospect - An interesting episode about Seven believing herself to having been the victim of an assault by a weapons dealer. The Doc leaps to her defence, and after an investigation, it turns out it was a result of other memories. An ok episode, not great, but certainly not bad.

The Killing Game - Wow, consider the Hirogen completely neutered after this one. More holodeck nonsense, and at the end, they're all bowing to each other. Dreadful stuff.

Vis à Vis - Enjoyable ep about a body stealing alien.

The Omega Directive - Another enjoyable ep, the omega directive gives Starfleet Captains some rather large responsibilities and powers, and rescinds the Prime Directive too.

Unforgettable - Enjoyable ep again, a woman who you forget unless you're around her all the time (love interest for Chakotay)

Living Witness - Fantastic episode, and the closest Voyager gets to a Mirror Universe episode.

Demon - Another good episode, the demon class planet with the liquid that becomes sentient, eventually replicating the crew (we see these again in the next season if I recall).

One - The entire crew has to go into stasis while Seven & the Doc navigate the ship through a huge nebula. Good episode, could have been way better though (there's never any real sense of isolation in it).

Hope and Fear - Cracking season finale, the NX-01A is a beauty! Problem is, she's on a course to hell!

All in all a superb season of Star Trek. While anyone can say about Voyager, "they could have made it so much better", this season has a ton of good/great episodes in it.

Kirby · 08-02-2016 10:26am

I'm amazed you didn't like the killing game. I found it really entertaining. Sure, WW2 is over done but they did it well. And we got Klingon Neelix and Jeri Ryan singing!

Myrddin · 08-02-2016 10:35am

Kirby wrote: »

I'm amazed you didn't like the killing game. I found it really entertaining. Sure, WW2 is over done but they did it well. And we got Klingon Neelix and Jeri Ryan singing!

An excruciatingly bad two parter for me I'm afraid

The concept was interesting, an Hirogen who felt his people were too scattered and consumed with the hunt, the loss of their territory and culture, and one who felt the hunt could be replicated in order to restore the Hirogen to what they once were.

The execution though, eugh. WW2....again! It's so overdone, period holodeck stuff in Star Trek seriously needs to end. It completely neutered the Hirogen at the end, they went from 7 foot tall giants who looked upon anyone and everyone as their prey (a lesser form of life), to nodding in respect to Janeway...all in two episodes. Dreadful stuff, it could have been so, so much better.

Kirby · 08-02-2016 10:38am

Well there is more to come from it. Maybe you will appreciate the next part where you see what they did with the holographic tech Janeway gave them.

Myrddin · 08-02-2016 10:50am

Kirby wrote: »

Well there is more to come from it. Maybe you will appreciate the next part where you see what they did with the holographic tech Janeway gave them.

Oh I've seen Voyager quite a few times, this is just another run through. Don't get me wrong, I like the Hirogen...I just don't like what the writers made them become (sterile, generic baddies, blah). They were terrifying when we first seen them...they'd kill you, take your bones as a trophy to display on a wall, and boil the rest of you in a big pot with other dead things to make din dins. As I said, didn't take long for them to become mundane generic bad guys

Star Trek Voyager - Is It That Bad?

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