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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #6512
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    opiniated wrote: »
    In fairness, a large gathering could certainly be a target in the current climate.

    However, you are entirely correct that these emergency laws need to be relaxed in the very near future.

    The potential for abuse is horrendous.

    Ah the joys of diversity, we're importing all these people who hate you, and in return you get to give up all your civil liberties.....


  • #6513
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Well big surprise, it took hardly any time at all for France to abuse the emergency laws, and use them to ban climate change protests:
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/27/paris-climate-activists-put-under-house-arrest-using-emergency-laws

    The French government is - right now - a far greater threat to the French public, than any terrorist group.

    I mean, this is a really flagrant violation of the purpose of the emergency laws, and of the spirit they were enacted with (stopping terrorists) - using them to opportunistically ban protests, shows that a big part of the purpose behind enacting these emergency laws, has nothing at all to do with terrorism - that's just an excuse - but to acquire greater power against political opponents.

    I would point to the Turkish peace protest bombings as an example of what could happen.


  • #6514
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Ah the joys of diversity, we're importing all these people who hate you, and in return you get to give up all your civil liberties.....

    The majority of the people involved in the Paris attacks were French born.


  • #6515
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Well big surprise, it took hardly any time at all for France to abuse the emergency laws, and use them to ban climate change protests:
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/27/paris-climate-activists-put-under-house-arrest-using-emergency-laws

    The French government is - right now - a far greater threat to the French public, than any terrorist group.
    Look, I'm as ready as the next conspiracy theorist to accuse any government of misusing emergency powers to its own ends, but this is grossly offensive to the families of 130 people who were slaughtered in cold blood only two weeks ago.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #6516
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Well big surprise, it took hardly any time at all for France to abuse the emergency laws, and use them to ban climate change protests:
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/nov/27/paris-climate-activists-put-under-house-arrest-using-emergency-laws

    The French government is - right now - a far greater threat to the French public, than any terrorist group.

    I mean, this is a really flagrant violation of the purpose of the emergency laws, and of the spirit they were enacted with (stopping terrorists) - using them to opportunistically ban protests, shows that a big part of the purpose behind enacting these emergency laws, has nothing at all to do with terrorism - that's just an excuse - but to acquire greater power against political opponents.

    Fairly typical. The Brits brought in some law under Blair and during the debate various pro- MP's argued that it would never be abused. 24 hours later it was being used to stop people on the way to a protest and confiscate items like pens, paper etc.


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  • #6517
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    :rolleyes:
    Nodin wrote: »
    The majority of the people involved in the Paris attacks were French born.

    Or Belgian?

    So maybe it's not nationality then. Maybe there's something else they all have in common instead? Hmm?

    It's on the tip of my tongue. :rolleyes:

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #6518
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    volchitsa wrote: »

    Or Belgian?

    So maybe it's not nationality then. Maybe there's something else they all have in common instead? Hmm?

    It's on the tip of my tongue.

    They were followers of IS. The fact remains they were not 'imported'.


  • #6519
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    Nodin wrote: »
    The majority of the people involved in the Paris attacks were French born.

    So? Two were "refugees" and the other six were of North African descent. All were Muslim. Five of the eight used the migrant route to either get into Europe or to slip back into Europe without going through the regular channels.


  • #6520
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Nodin wrote: »
    They were followers of IS. The fact remains they were not 'imported'.

    They arent ethnic europeans in any way, they are by definition imported.


  • #6521
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    kettlehead wrote: »
    So? Two were "refugees" and the other six were of North African descent. All were Muslim. Five of the eight used the migrant route to either get into Europe or to slip back into Europe without going through the regular channels.


    And again, they were not imported.
    JPNelsonforearm wrote:
    They arent ethnic europeans in any way, they are by definition imported.

    They were born in Europe, and therefore are European. They were either French or Belgian citizens.


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  • #6522
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    Five of them were imported. Two of them were refugees and three blended in with the refugees so as to avoid detection. If we had proper border controls in place, five of the eight attackers wouldn't have been able to get into Europe.

    As for the Belgians, well, without Europe's crazy immigration policies of the past few decades, they might not have been here either. The chickens are now coming home to roost.


  • #6523
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    kettlehead wrote: »
    Five of them were imported. .........

    ...which five?


  • #6524
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    When the Turks were expelling 'Greeks' (whose people had lived in western Turkey for generations), weren't the Greeks also expelling 'Turks' (whose people had lived in Greece for generations)? That era around WWI was a particularly nasty time of ethnic triumphalism all over the world.


  • #6525
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...which five?

    Five of the eight terrorists involved in the Paris attack came into France disguised as refugees. They landed in Greece and passed through the Balkans using the migrant route, according to Paris investigators.


    www .nzz. ch/international/wenn-terroristen-fluechtlingsrouten-nutzen-1.18649919


  • #6526
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,729 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Nodin wrote: »
    And again, they were not imported.


    They were born in Europe, and therefore are European. They were either French or Belgian citizens.

    What do you think of the fact that the majority of them expolited the refugee crisis to gain access to Europe, either for the first time or to return under the radar? Do you not think that perhaps this could be a problem that needs to be addressed?


  • #6527
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What do you think of the fact that the majority of them expolited the refugee crisis to gain access to Europe, either for the first time or to return under the radar? Do you not think that perhaps this could be a problem that needs to be addressed?

    He doesn't really care, he's just trying to tie the thread up in knots and trying to get people annoyed so they get yellow carded.


  • #6528
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    kettlehead wrote: »
    Five of the eight terrorists involved in the Paris attack came into France disguised as refugees. They landed in Greece and passed through the Balkans using the migrant route, according to Paris investigators.


    www .nzz. ch/international/wenn-terroristen-fluechtlingsrouten-nutzen-1.18649919

    I've never read that in a news report, and am unable to speak german. However even if it is true, the fact remains that the vast majority were French and Belgian citizens born in Europe.


  • #6529
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What do you think of the fact that the majority of them expolited the refugee crisis to gain access to Europe, either for the first time or to return under the radar? Do you not think that perhaps this could be a problem that needs to be addressed?

    Indeed, there has to be tight security and better checks done, regardless of how many actually returned via that route.


  • #6530
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Sergio Georgini wrote: »
    I would point to the Turkish peace protest bombings as an example of what could happen.
    The Turkish peace protest bombings - carried out by ISIS - the group that the Turkish government has been proven to support with weaponry, and where the journalist who exposed this support has since been killed (arguably murdered) in unusual circumstances, and other journalists reporting support for ISIS have been outright arrested?

    I'd not be holding up Turkey as any bastion of civil liberties anytime soon. I wouldn't put it past them to blow up political opponents to be honest - but I'd say those bombings were a bad case of 'blowback' instead.

    In fact, I'd say Turkey is a great example of the extreme dangers of letting terrorist attacks be used, to erode civil liberties - when you've got proof of the state supporting the terrorist group behind the attacks.

    Exactly the kind of danger civilians in western nations should be worried about, given one of their NATO allies is proven to support these terrorists.


  • #6531
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What do you think of the fact that the majority of them expolited the refugee crisis to gain access to Europe, either for the first time or to return under the radar? Do you not think that perhaps this could be a problem that needs to be addressed?

    Is it not immaterial the refugee crisis if they have a European passport?
    They can come and go as they please?


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  • #6532
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Look, I'm as ready as the next conspiracy theorist to accuse any government of misusing emergency powers to its own ends, but this is grossly offensive to the families of 130 people who were slaughtered in cold blood only two weeks ago.
    You don't speak for a single one of those families.

    Recognizing that misuse of emergency powers, presents a far greater potential threat to the future of a country, than murderous terrorists, is an objective fact - and it doesn't minimize the danger or harm from those terrorists in any way.


  • #6533
    kettlehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 414 ✭✭kettlehead


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Is it not immaterial the refugee crisis if they have a European passport?
    They can come and go as they please?

    Two were "refugees" and not EU citizens. The other three were returning from their endeavours with ISIS in Syria and would have been lifted by the authorities if they entered Europe via the correct channels. Instead, they blended in and entered via the migrant routes.


  • #6534
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Nodin wrote: »
    They were followers of IS. The fact remains they were not 'imported'.

    Isn't it funny how eager we are to claim the "Irish" in America who are sometimes several generations away from having ever been born in Ireland,in that case?

    Whereas people who, though they may have been born in Europe, don't consider themselves European at all, and in fact want to destroy the Eurooean way of life, are to be considered European just because of one of the passports they hold?

    I don't think so.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #6535
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,729 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Is it not immaterial the refugee crisis if they have a European passport?
    They can come and go as they please?

    They can't come and go as they please if they are on a watch list due to their activities. The lack of proper checks gave them the opportunity to return when otherwise they would have likely been stopped if travelling through legitimate means.


  • #6536
    Laois_Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭Laois_Man


    Am I the only one who thinks the viral "hilarious" Irishman's letter to ISIS is actually really ****in stupid?

    http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/national/whats-the-craic-lads-read-this-irishmans-brilliant-facebook-letter-to-isis/ar-AAfKIW4?li=AAaxjhv&ocid=mailsignoutmd


  • #6537
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Am I the only one who thinks the viral "hilarious" Irishman's letter to ISIS is actually really ****in stupid?

    http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/national/whats-the-craic-lads-read-this-irishmans-brilliant-facebook-letter-to-isis/ar-AAfKIW4?li=AAaxjhv&ocid=mailsignoutmd

    It has its very own thread, and the general consensus is that it is indeed very unfunny. Sometimes these things are best left to the likes of Frankie Boyle.


  • #6538
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    kettlehead wrote: »
    Two were "refugees" and not EU citizens. The other three were returning from their endeavours with ISIS in Syria and would have been lifted by the authorities if they entered Europe via the correct channels. Instead, they blended in and entered via the migrant routes.

    Was there an Interpol/international arrest warrant out for them??
    If not...it's hard to see how legally they would've arrested?


  • #6539
    questionmark?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,085 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Isn't it funny how eager we are to claim the "Irish" in America who are sometimes several generations away from having ever been born in Ireland,in that case?

    Whereas people who, though they may have been born in Europe, don't consider themselves European at all, and in fact want to destroy the Eurooean way of life, are to be considered European just because of one of the passports they hold?

    I don't think so.

    Ya that concept fits into tourism. The fact remains that if your great great great grandfather's dog walkers cousins friend was Irish doesn't make you Irish but hey tourist money and all that.

    A European passport, whatever the hell that is as I have never heard of a country called Europe, means sweet f all to a lot of people.


  • #6540
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,729 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Was there an Interpol/international arrest warrant out for them??
    If not...it's hard to see how legally they would've arrested?

    I'm not sure of the grounds used for detaining people but the UK government have previously said that people returning from Syria will be stopped and possibly arrested. Presumably it's the same everywhere. These people entered as refugees to avoid this

    Britons returning to the UK from Syria will be stopped at the border and face arrest, a senior police chief has said.
    Sir Peter Fahy, Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, told the BBC there was "huge concern" that Britons arriving back after fighting in Syria posed a threat to the UK.
    Scotland Yard said its biggest concern was some could return as terrorists.
    This month 16 people have been arrested on suspicion of terror offences after travelling between Syria and the UK.
    This compares with 24 in the whole of 2013.


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  • #6541
    moneyman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭moneyman


    What's the solution then? Don't let the Muslims in?

    Genuine question.

    There is a serious problem with Islam but it's the minority (still a pretty big minority - estimated at about 15-25% of Muslims).

    I still wouldn't be against taking in refugees. People forget that Syrians are getting exectuted left, right and centre for protesting against ISIS. That's true bravery, facing certain death. Syrians are not the enemy.


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