Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

130Kph · 22-11-2015 01:37AM

Depp wrote: »

Call a spade a spade theres a lot of racist bandwagoning going on, but there is reason for concern, outside of the racist motivations, Islam but more specifically the parts of the quran that encourage killing of non believers/civil rights issues/aggressive conversion threaten most of the freedoms we enjoy every day.

Absolutely agree with you. I don’t think any electorate will reverse these values (even if 30% of the electorate are Musselemen)…..Do you???

Depp wrote: »

Now I'm not coming from the ''put the muslims in camps/nuke the middle east'' camp, what Im suggesting needs to be done is Daesh have to be defeated completely, by whatever means necessary, there need to be tighter controls on immigration, the shengen agreement needs to be thrown out, tighter background checks are an absolute essential, also finally and arguably most crucially, there needs to be huge reform in islam but it cant be forced reform, it has to come from grassroots muslims, while the estimates of percentages of moderate muslims are hugely varied i dont deny they are in the vast majority, they need to speak up and do this, because while the quran is thought in its current form groups like al qaeda, boka haram and daesh will keep popping up and murdering innocents in the name of allah. True a certain number of these men will still kill, but if the quran didnt contain the verses i have spoken of these men wouldnt be seen as islamic martyrs they would be seen as evil murderers who happened to be muslim, also it would take away there best recruiting tool.

Everything you’re saying here is fine.

However, the problem is people who wants to intern/ deport/imprison Muslims for reasons due to – we can’t find out because everyone has gone mute!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?? Are not explaining their viewpoint now that the spotlight has Fallen on their wisdom/musings………

By the way guys, let's say you’re right. If we deported every Muslim who ever landed or grew up in any European country since 1870…. We could avert something like the Paris massacre. But that’s only the start of the deportations….so give us the full monty. We’re all ears!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As soon as I asked one prolific anti-muslim poster to produce his sources, the thread turns into a ghost-town.

Jaycust!!

Any road, there’s nowt queer as folk!

Now I'm not coming from the ''put the muslims in camps/nuke the middle east'' camp..

Do you want some tickling & cuddling because of this??? What???

The individuals who propose this are basement dwelling (US slang) inbred ameobas without any central nervous system.

There’s going to be no reform of Islam. It doesn’t work like that. Thankfully Islam is a pile of idiotic buffoonery, so we don’t need to worry about it. Yipeee

DubVelo · 22-11-2015 01:43AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Or do you not think 15% is a tremendously large minority? That's around 750,000 people by my estimate.

It says 'french citizens' not french muslims - so millions! Does that sound in anyway plausible to you?

Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya

I doubt there is such a thing as a news agency in Russia anymore, this is part of the Kremlin bull**** factory.

Mountainsandh · 22-11-2015 02:10AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795

Or do you not think 15% is a tremendously large minority? That's around 750,000 people by my estimate.

DubVelo wrote: »

It says 'french citizens' not french muslims - so millions! Does that sound in anyway plausible to you?

I doubt there is such a thing as a news agency in Russia anymore, this is part of the Kremlin bull**** factory.

That article is a load of codswallop. Evidence ? None. I'm French though, if that counts for anything. There isn't a hope in hell these numbers are accurate by my experience.

Not everything that is labelled an "article", and a "study" is reliable. How did they conduct that study exactly ? Rang 15 families in Sarcelles ?

long range shooter · 22-11-2015 04:13AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hold your fire there.

You said there are 55 No-Go Zones in Sweden because 'Muslims'.
I pointed out there is a NO-Go zone in Dublin and asked it that was because 'Muslims'.
Hours later, after you went off on some tangent about Norwegian News channels, you say the Dublin No-Go isn't because 'Muslims' because there arn't enough of them.

I then ask if perhaps there could be factors other than 'Muslims' which can lead to the creation of No-Go Zones (poverty, unemployment for example) which the 55 Swedish No-Go Zones and Cherry Orchard share.

Your answer is to say I can't handle the truth.
Seriously?
What bloody truth?
That No-Go Zones can and do exist without a Muslim setting foot in the place which is a truth you seem to be finding hard to digest never mind admit.

Nodin can continue to try and get a straight answer out of you if he wants. I don't have that kind of patience.

Now i am only going to tell you this once,cause i am really tired of repeating myself.
I am fully aware of the gangs that are in Dublin,and that they are not muslims.
Only difference is that as far as i know,havent been any extremeist terrorist originating from the no go zone in Dublin.
And i am sure you wont find to many volunteers to the islamic state either.
and by the way,do you have sharia patrols in Dublin,like they have in the UK and Germany?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra45nX9JmW4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S3IACJ_KKs

Billy86 · 22-11-2015 04:33AM

long range shooter wrote: »

and by the way,do you have sharia patrols in Dublin,like they have in the UK and Germany?

That's from over a year ago - it was a very small number of people, the German government put a stop to it and had charges brought against them.

http://www.thelocal.de/20150902/prosecutors-target-leader-of-sharia-police
http://www.thelocal.de/20140905/ruhr-police-throw-book-at-shariah-vigilantes

The Wednesday incident was the first time they had directly violated the law, and no formal complaints had been made against them.

"There is no evidence that they have intimated anybody," the spokeswoman said, adding that talks were under way between integration authorities and local mosque leaders to address the situation.

...

"The state has an exclusive monopoly on the use of force," reminded local police chief Birgitta Radermacher. "Any conduct that intimidates, provokes or makes people insecure will not be tolerated. These 'Sharia Police' have no legitimacy," she added.

long range shooter · 22-11-2015 04:34AM

Billy86 wrote: »

That's from over a year ago - it was a very small number of people, the German government put a stop to it and had charges brought against them.

http://www.thelocal.de/20150902/prosecutors-target-leader-of-sharia-police
http://www.thelocal.de/20140905/ruhr-police-throw-book-at-shariah-vigilantes

so?why did it even excist?Do we use sharia law in Europe.

Billy86 · 22-11-2015 04:46AM

long range shooter wrote: »

so?why did it even excist?Do we use sharia law in Europe.

No we don't, hence why those guys were prosecuted.

Do we practice murder and burglary in Europe? No we don't, hence why people who do so are prosecuted.

long range shooter · 22-11-2015 04:54AM

Nodin wrote: »

I suspect at this stage you are taking the proverbial. You were asked to explain yourself and you couldn't. You were asked what question you were asking and can't provide that.

I was asked to explain mysef,lol,is this a hearing or a court room?
And you dont even bother looking at the video showing swedens no go zones,and the recruitment to IS that comes from there?
And then you saying i have to explain myself?
You couldnt possibly think that that could be the case in France as well?
Or is it peace and quiet all year around in France?
You try telling me that Belfast was at war 24 hours a day whole year around as well back in the 70s?
Not a good comparison whatsoever.
I think you know as well as me that most Europen countries have a problem with the muslim poplulation,rather you like it or not.
Its just a matter of tim before it gets worse,and i think you can be glad you live in ireland then.

long range shooter · 22-11-2015 04:55AM

Billy86 wrote: »

No we don't, hence why those guys were prosecuted.

Do we practice murder and burglary in Europe? No we don't, hence why people who do so are prosecuted.

they do in Sharia law,thats why i asked.

Billy86 · 22-11-2015 05:02AM

long range shooter wrote: »

I was asked to explain mysef,lol,is this a hearing or a court room?
And you dont even bother looking at the video showing swedens no go zones,and the recruitment to IS that comes from there?
And then you saying i have to explain myself?
You couldnt possibly think that that could be the case in France as well?
Or is it peace and quiet all year around in France?
You try telling me that Belfast was at war 24 hours a day whole year around as well back in the 70s?
Not a good comparison whatsoever.
I think you know as well as me that most Europen countries have a problem with the muslim poplulation,rather you like it or not.
Its just a matter of tim before it gets worse,and i think you can be glad you live in ireland then.

Quick question - why is Toronto not suffering from any such problems, with an 8% Muslim population, which is higher than almost any European country?

Billy86 · 22-11-2015 05:03AM

long range shooter wrote: »

they do in Sharia law,thats why i asked.

Does Europe practice murder and burglary?

jackofalltrades · 22-11-2015 05:27AM

130Kph wrote: »

Oh really,- racist :eek::eek::eek::eek::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Redneck means a country bumpkin, what’s racist about that?????????

It's a derogatory term solely used to describe working class white Americans.
So yes it is racist.

re: your question about the worst dangers in the world at the moment......

Yeah that's not my question.

Pig ignorant depraved terrorist Jihadi scum (agreement – yes, no, maybe???), Mexican drug cartels (100,000 dead bodies), Putin’s miserable dictatorship, Iran’s attempt to get a nuclear weapon, general organised crime, Boko Harem, and endless militant groups who fight against useless or backward governments in the developing world, organised crime trafficking women or children – I think that’s a fair start.

Not looking good for the proposition that Islam is the most dangerous movement in the world atm (on this thread) is it BlaasForRafa or Jack? Ouch…..The way to resolve this is – give us your sources………….that is the holy grail now…..please give us your sources about Islam

Well I never made the claim so I don't know why you're aiming the childish "ouch" taunt at me.
And no I'm not going to entertain your "give us you sources" game.
I much prefer actually having a proper debate.

volchitsa · 22-11-2015 05:54AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Quick question - why is Toronto not suffering from any such problems, with an 8% Muslim population, which is higher than almost any European country?

What makes you think Canada is getting away scot free?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

Billy86 · 22-11-2015 06:25AM

volchitsa wrote: »

What makes you think Canada is getting away scot free?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

In a country with 35 million, you'll always have a few nut jobs lying around - you do know the gunman in that crime had a dozen previous convictions stretching back to before his conversion to Islam, and was a homeless drug addict with mental health issues, right?

If we're going to go playing that game, you will find a longer history of Christian terrorism in Canada than you will Muslim.

If this is all entirely the fault of Islam and an inevitability of having a certain percentage of Muslims in Europe, then how come those same issues are not plaguing Canada which has, and for some time now has had, a larger Muslim community than almost any country in Europe can claim, in a mainly Christian country?

Nodin · 22-11-2015 07:59AM

Samaris wrote: »

I have no idea what you're on about either at this point, LRS.

If a large muslim population leads to violence and organised terrorism, then France should be infinitely more troubled than it is. It isn't though, and why not is the question I've been asking. The answer delivered thus far is "don't know" 'you can't handle the truth' and 'Sweden Video!!!'. There isn't actually anything more to say on the matter, hence post 6199.

They have differing goals, many of the IS sympathisers have gone to Syria and
Iraq to help establish the Caliphate. You are trying to draw parallels
between groups with different M.O.'s

750,000? Were that the case it underlines my point. That level of extremist support is more than enough to maintain a sustained terrorist campaign on a large scale. Yet it isn't happening.

So 750,000 sympathisers have gone off to the ME to fight and nobody stayed behind to fight the holy fight in France? Were that the case I;m fairly sure Ryanair would have a somewhere near paris to somewhere near Damascus shuttle laid on for toing and froing.

22-11-2015 10:45AM

Denial of electricity is a very powerful form of terrorism. The Paris attacks just go to show that they're more interested in killing than in bringing the country down by destroying vital infrastructure.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34893493
Crimea has been plunged into darkness after pylons carrying power lines which supply electricity from Ukraine were reportedly blown up on Saturday night.

All four power lines were cut, reports said, leaving the region's two million inhabitants without electricity.

Images circulated on social media appeared to show Ukrainian flags attached to the damaged pylons.

Crimea was annexed by Russia last year, but the Ukrainian authorities have continued to supply power to the area.

Crimean authorities said they had managed to partially reconnect the cities of Simferopol, Yalta and Saky using generators.

Mikhail Sheremet, Crimea's deputy prime minister, said the peninsula's hospitals had backup power sources and would not be affected.

The Crimean Emergencies Ministry has declared a state of emergency and put rescue teams on high alert.

"Crimea is completely cut off," Viktor Plakida, the director of Crimea Energy, told Russia's Tass news agency.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-11-2015 11:31AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

It's a derogatory term solely used to describe working class white Americans.
So yes it is racist.
Yeah that's not my question.

Well I never made the claim so I don't know why you're aiming the childish "ouch" taunt at me.
And no I'm not going to entertain your "give us you sources" game.
I much prefer actually having a proper debate.

Actually the word redneck is used in Ireland and the UK too to describe people from rural areas.

The Rape of Lucretia · 22-11-2015 11:37AM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

It's a derogatory term solely used to describe working class white Americans.
So yes it is racist.

Can be derogatory. Not always derogatory. Used by some rednecks themselves.
So no, it is not racist.

22-11-2015 11:38AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Actually the word redneck is used in Ireland and the UK too to describe people from rural areas.

Probably a loan word "borrowed" from the US.

zeffabelli · 22-11-2015 11:38AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Actually the word redneck is used in Ireland and the UK too to describe people from rural areas.

Americans don't use working class, they saw blue collar or white collar, that's pretty much it.

Redneck is a derogatory term used by urbanites to describe white rural labourers. Their necks are red because of sun burn working out in the fields and out door labour.

It applies to white people living in hot states where you get sun burn. Hence red neck.

130Kph · 22-11-2015 12:35PM

jackofalltrades wrote: »

It's a derogatory term solely used to describe working class white Americans.
So yes it is racist.
Yeah that's not my question.

Well I never made the claim so I don't know why you're aiming the childish "ouch" taunt at me.
And no I'm not going to entertain your "give us you sources" game.
I much prefer actually having a proper debate.

As has been pointed out, it’s used here too. The first time I heard it was when one of the party I was with (leaving a Slane gig a long time ago) was called it by a young gentleman from….ahem…the East coast somewhere. And again, not racist.

Above, I was using it in the context of those in authority in say, Alabama in the 1950’s, definitely not having a swipe at the working class.

There are people here saying Islam is the most dangerous movement in the world today.

That’s a non-trivial claim.

The world’s foremost academics & experts on religions and Islam are not saying this. The only people saying this are hate propagandists. So I was merely trying to clarify where this poster formed the above opinion.

The fact that he hasn’t responded (it would take less than 30 words) would lend one to assume that his main sources about Islam are those with zero credibility & which are laughed at by the experts.

You may be prepared to let this slide, in the interests of debate, so we’ll have to agree to disagree there.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-11-2015 12:35PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Americans don't use working class, they saw blue collar or white collar, that's pretty much it.

Redneck is a derogatory term used by urbanites to describe white rural labourers. Their necks are red because of sun burn working out in the fields and out door labour.

It applies to white people living in hot states where you get sun burn. Hence red neck.

Oh I know the meaning, it'd pretty self explanatory, I'm pointing out that it's not solely used in the US. I often call my country friends rednecks

silverharp · 22-11-2015 12:39PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Oh I know the meaning, it'd pretty self explanatory, I'm pointing out that it's not solely used in the US. I often call my country friends rednecks

I always thought it was their dads hitting them on the back of the head telling them to go up to Dublin to get a job..... :pac:

IrishTrajan · 22-11-2015 12:52PM

DubVelo wrote: »

It says 'french citizens' not french muslims - so millions! Does that sound in anyway plausible to you?

It asks French Muslim youths their opinion on IS - those Muslim youths are also French citizens. There's hardly any point in asking Muslims in Bulgaria to find out about the climate in France. Use a bit of deductive reasoning next time.

DubVelo wrote: »

I doubt there is such a thing as a news agency in Russia anymore, this is part of the Kremlin bull**** factory.

It wasn't them conducting the poll, it was

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICM_Research

CM Research is a public opinion researcher that was founded in 1989.[1][2] ICM is a subsidiary of Creston Insight, a marketing services company, and, as of June 2014, is a member of the British Polling Council.[3]

IrishTrajan · 22-11-2015 12:54PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

That article is a load of codswallop. Evidence ? None. I'm French though, if that counts for anything. There isn't a hope in hell these numbers are accurate by my experience.

Not everything that is labelled an "article", and a "study" is reliable. How did they conduct that study exactly ? Rang 15 families in Sarcelles ?

ICM interviewed 3,007 respondents in Britain (1,000), France (1,006) and Germany (1,001) by telephone between 11th and 21st July this year, before the group released a video of an apparently British jihadist executing American journalist James Foley.

You know, when people dismiss the surveys without even reading them, I tend to err on the side of caution and not believe people's personal anecdotes in favour of statistics.

The Rape of Lucretia · 22-11-2015 01:13PM

130Kph wrote: »

There are people here saying Islam is the most dangerous movement in the world today.

That’s a non-trivial claim.

The world’s foremost academics & experts on religions and Islam are not saying this. The only people saying this are hate propagandists.

I dont think this is a fair charge. It is a legitimate view to regard the root of the ISIS/Al Qaeda/IS/etc islamic terrorism as being Islam itself. Without promoting hate. It is possible that it is simply a fact.

All religions are already on the dodgy ground of being the ones who abondoned reason and engage in fantasy. It is good that the rest of us tolerate this weakness, and I am glad to live in a society that allows people to do so if they wish. But when it extends to harming others - as Islam does - then no apology is needed for not indulging them further, and taking actions, whatever is needed, to restrain the mindlessness. Rather than hate, it is pity for the depraved and antisocial state that their imagination has led them to.

On the topic of whether IS, etc represent or not Islam. That is a moot discussion - the bottom line is that Islam itself has led to the debate and is therefore culpable. Intra-religious disputes and wars are always a risk when what is being fought over is nonsense in the first place, as religion by definition is - and will therefore be all just one way down a rabbit hole of insanity.

Saying Islam is not the problem, some (debatably) Muslims are, is the same one as the US gun lobby that guns dont kill people, people do. Most of the US, and almost all of the rest of the world dont give that argument the time of day. They should no more do so to Islam as a whole, to let it off the hook.

Worthwhile read :
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/22/islam-terror-morality-paris

"What makes the actions of jihadis so inexplicable is that they seem to take place beyond the moral universe most of us inhabit. So, what is it that leads people “who aren’t that different” to cross the normal boundaries of morality?

People have, of course, always committed depraved and evil acts, but simply to say “It has always happened” does not explain what is distinctive about contemporary terrorism. Nor does it address perhaps the most incendiary question today: why do Islamist groups in particular seem so much more sadistic, even evil?

For some the answer lies with Islam itself. The Qur’an, they argue, is particularly violent; Muslims are more given to literal readings of their holy book – and hence more willing to commit acts of savagery.

Islam is clearly an important factor. Those – including David Cameron and Barack Obama – who insist that jihadis are not “real” Muslims miss the point. The fact that Isis supporters practise their religion in a way that horrifies most liberals does not make it any less Islamic."

I dont think this is hate propaganda.

130Kph · 22-11-2015 01:41PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I dont think .......

I actually agree with everything you say. I was being a bit OTT and simplistic above :pac:

DubVelo · 22-11-2015 02:17PM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

It asks French Muslim youths their opinion on IS - those Muslim youths are also French citizens. There's hardly any point in asking Muslims in Bulgaria to find out about the climate in France. Use a bit of deductive reasoning next time.

Did you even read your own article?
It does NOT say 'French Muslims', it says 'French citizens'. It's claiming that 9.9 million people in France support IS. More than the entire Muslim population of the country!

It's bull****, absolute and total propaganda bull****.

I tend to err on the side of caution and not believe people's personal anecdotes in favour of statistics.

It's very dangerous in this day and age to blindly accept 'statistics' because they seem a bit official sounding.

long range shooter · 22-11-2015 02:17PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Quick question - why is Toronto not suffering from any such problems, with an 8% Muslim population, which is higher than almost any European country?

Is there no IS recruitment in Canada?No extreme side of Islam whatsoever?
Strange?

Snake Plisken · 22-11-2015 02:27PM

long range shooter wrote: »

Is there no IS recruitment in Canada?No extreme side of Islam whatsoever?
Strange?

What about this follower of Islam from last year?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_shootings_at_Parliament_Hill,_Ottawa

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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