Spoilers Series 9, Episode 9 - "Sleep No More"

malcy · 15-11-2015 03:40PM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I have no opinion on this matter but I think it's difficult to judge what a person may do to a show if given complete control over it based of one or two standalone episodes that have to fit in to someone else's vision of the show.

Well Gatiss has written almost a full series worth of episodes now. He is more than capable. Look at Moffat though. 4 stories that were well recieved, then took over and it's been a mess ever since. He tries too hard, plaguerises his own work, writes himself into corners etc. Gatiss is a little more restrained in that regard.

I hope he comes up with the sequel to this episode for next series. Although he has also said he would love tp adapt his BF audio 'Invaders From Mars' which would be fairly brilliant.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 15-11-2015 03:44PM

malcy wrote: »

Well Gatiss has written almost a full series worth of episodes now. He is more than capable. Look at Moffat though. 4 stories that were well recieved, then took over and it's been a mess ever since. He tries too hard, plaguerises his own work, writes himself into corners etc. Gatiss is a little more restrained in that regard.

I hope he comes up with the sequel to this episode for next series. Although he has also said he would love tp adapt his BF audio 'Invaders From Mars' which would be fairly brilliant.

Yeah, it works both ways. There are people who love the idea of Gatiss taking over, there are people who hate the idea. It's impossible to say what way things would go if he did take over. It's one thing to be able to write a strong episode every now and then, it's entirely another to have to wrangle a whole series of the show, especially when there's so many other writers involved.

I often wonder if one person was able to plan and write the entire series themselves how things would work out.

malcy · 15-11-2015 03:54PM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I often wonder if one person was able to plan and write the entire series themselves how things would work out.

They would need a lot of time to do it! I think that's Moffats biggest problem. The show doesnt get 100% of his attention as it should do. He has Sherlock to deal with as well and even he admits the workload is too much for him to deal with. RTD had 3 shows on the go at one stage, he shold ring him up for help!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 15-11-2015 03:58PM

malcy wrote: »

They would need a lot of time to do it! I think that's Moffats biggest problem. The show doesnt get 100% of his attention as it should do. He has Sherlock to deal with as well and even he admits the workload is too much for him to deal with. RTD had 3 shows on the go at one stage, he shold ring him up for help!

There are often series on BBC that have the one writer, or a team of 2 at most. Granted they're usually only about 6 episodes long. But yes, it would require a person to give 100% of their time to the one project.

Look at next series though... this one finished filming ages ago and they've no idea when they next one will start filming so all in all they could have anything up to a year to write 9 or 10 scripts. That's doable.

dori_dormer · 15-11-2015 04:11PM

Ugh I'm so sick of them randomly appearing in a space ship with some secret evil and a few stupid red shirts.

They really need more imagination and scope. Previous series didn't focus this much on future humans, or human like races. They need more alien planets! I think Coleman really needs to go. I feel her and cap aldi have done all they can do. I find their Interactions boring and tedious, and never funny any more. I mean she's a good actress but I'll be so glad when she's dead

pixelburp · 15-11-2015 04:22PM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I often wonder if one person was able to plan and write the entire series themselves how things would work out.

Just ask J. Michael Straczynski, I'm pretty sure he wrote an entire season of Babylon 5 back in the day.

I think the problem here in general terms is, and I hate to admit it, Dr Who as it exists right now has gone as far as it can. TV is a much different beast now, even wince 2005 when the show cane back , and knocking out what amounts to an anthology series year in year out just doest cut it anymore. The format's rusty and I don't believe the blame is solely Moffats, that a change in staff would yield results.

Look at the past and the same happened before, albeit for different reasons. At the end of Patrick Troughtons reign, the format was radically altered into a more rigid, earthbound series. A consistent cast, location etc., the show loved away from disconnected space shenanigans into (briefly) a paramilitary procedural thriller.

Dramas these days stress overarching stories, plots and character arcs, and while Who has dabbled with this, I get the feeling that the demand for weekly thrills for the kiddies means we get these half baked idea like Sleep No More, with generic bogeymen because that's what Dr Who is obligated to provide. A bit like Top Gear, latterly the BBCs other main export, Who has become something of a victim of its own success.

New ideas are needed for sure, but a rigid adherence to the anthology format's just not working anymore.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 15-11-2015 04:32PM

dori_dormer wrote: »

Ugh I'm so sick of them randomly appearing in a space ship with some secret evil and a few stupid red shirts.

They really need more imagination and scope. Previous series didn't focus this much on future humans, or human like races. They need more alien planets!

I agree in part, but I think they need to focus on the fact that the Tardis can travel in time as well as space. There are loads of historical stories they could explore. Even when they do that now, the recent Vikings episode, it's hijacked by some rubbish aliens.

I know there was some sort of alien/monster in it but one of my favourite Doctor Who episodes, and one of the few Matt Smith ones I liked, was the Van Gogh episode. It explored some very basic human themes while still having time travel and monsters and all that jazz.

If I was calling the shots I'd say next year we go for two or three specials, 2 parts, slightly longer than the normal episodes, and have one ready for early summer, one for September-ish time and one to air over the Christmas season. More time to decide where the show is going, more time within the episodes to explore characters, themes etc. etc. and it allows them more time to transition between companions too.

malcy · 15-11-2015 04:49PM

I think a few historicals is the way to go going forward. I think the last one was Black Orchid in the 80's. There is plenty of peril to be had without there having to be an alien influence to move the story forward.

I personally want another run of full episodes next year, but if we have to make do with another specials year then so be it. Just make it a bit different and maybe bring in an old companion for them. Would be great to see Jamie or Ace travel for an episode or two. Only takes a minute to explain who they are to people who aren't familiar with them.

Just please, please, please make sure Xmas is the last appearence EVER of River Bloody Song......

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 15-11-2015 05:05PM

malcy wrote: »

I think a few historicals is the way to go going forward. I think the last one was Black Orchid in the 80's. There is plenty of peril to be had without there having to be an alien influence to move the story forward.

I personally want another run of full episodes next year, but if we have to make do with another specials year then so be it. Just make it a bit different and maybe bring in an old companion for them. Would be great to see Jamie or Ace travel for an episode or two. Only takes a minute to explain who they are to people who aren't familiar with them.

Just please, please, please make sure Xmas is the last appearence EVER of River Bloody Song......

I assume River's presence in the Christmas episode is a bit like having the Lizard Lady and her pals in the Christmas one after Amy/Rory left. They need someone we know the Doctor has a relationship with to anchor the episode. They've overdone it with that particular gang in recent years, I think, so the next obvious one is River. That said.... a full Christmas special of The Doctor and Missy palling around would have worked for me

Busi_Girl08 · 15-11-2015 05:10PM

malcy wrote: »

I think a few historicals is the way to go going forward. I think the last one was Black Orchid in the 80's. There is plenty of peril to be had without there having to be an alien influence to move the story forward.

The monster of the week arc is getting pretty tired alright. I think it would be refreshing to take it back to its historical/borderline educational roots. With the right writing it can be well done without being boring.

I personally want another run of full episodes next year, but if we have to make do with another specials year then so be it. Just make it a bit different and maybe bring in an old companion for them. Would be great to see Jamie or Ace travel for an episode or two. Only takes a minute to explain who they are to people who aren't familiar with them.

There have been a lot more references to the past lately. I think the powers that be are recognising the power of the nostalgia factor after the 50th anniversary. Bringing back another old face would be great.

It could be a matter of time before we see a regenerated Romana.

Just please, please, please make sure Xmas is the last appearence EVER of River Bloody Song......

I wonder she going to be "Ghost of Christmas/TARDIS Past" style in this.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 15-11-2015 05:18PM

I never warmed to River, although, in case it's not clear yet, I've only seen Matt Smith as the Doctor before Capaldi. However! Alex Kingston is a good actress, I've seen her give good performances before in lots of things, so a little bit of me is kind of hoping that simply working next to Capaldi will improve the character a little bit.

malcy · 15-11-2015 05:33PM

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

The monster of the week arc is getting pretty tired alright. I think it would be refreshing to take it back to its historical/borderline educational roots. With the right writing it can be well done without being boring.

There have been a lot more references to the past lately. I think the powers that be are recognising the power of the nostalgia factor after the 50th anniversary. Bringing back another old face would be great.

It could be a matter of time before we see a regenerated Romana.

I wonder she going to be "Ghost of Christmas/TARDIS Past" style in this.

Exactly. Some of my favourite stories are the early historicals. A return for Romana would be welcome. Especially with Gallifrey looming on the horizon again. The biggest mis-step for me has been the introduction of Missy, just awful. Hopefully the Timelords force regenerate her into a man again if they get their hands on her.

As for River, it doesn't matter who writes for her. She's been too smug and irritating for too long to redeem herself!!

dori_dormer · 15-11-2015 07:11PM

I also think part of what I liked about Matt smith was he had a small group of great people, who could dip in and out at interesting times, and he could play off their dynamic to mix it up a bit. Also there was the overall large arc of the silence. You never knew if a simple filler episode would have somethign suddenly relate to it.

Capaldi has no one but Clara which I think they are weighing too heavily on. He needs other interesting people to develop his character. Also I don't think he has any purpose either. HIs travels aren't currently driven by any reason which is why I feel we are gettign these random episodes. There is no greater goal. I don't feel any investment in watching Sadly

Eugene Norman · 15-11-2015 08:01PM

This thread has gone over the top with criticism of this series. It's good. The absence of an obvious arc is no harm. That said I agree there could be more historical stories preferably without aliens.

This was a weak episode. Watching it back though I kinda get the idea – we seem to be watching a monster of the week but the video itself is the thing to spread the sleep, with the embedded signals. We are watching not The Ring/Ringu but the video in those movies(no credit sequence which should have been a hint).

The execution was bad though. Amateur dramatics in a tumble drier as somebody called it on Den of Geek.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 15-11-2015 08:22PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

This thread has gone over the top with criticism of this series. It's good. The absence of an obvious arc is no harm. That said I agree there could be more historical stories preferably without aliens.

This was a weak episode. Watching it back though I kinda get the idea – we seem to be watching a monster of the week but the video itself is the thing to spread the sleep, with the embedded signals. We are watching not The Ring/Ringu but the video in those movies(no credit sequence which should have been a hint).

The execution was bad though. Amateur dramatics in a tumble drier as somebody called it on Den of Geek.

Well said.

Personally I've loved this series. I love the 2 part episodes. I love Capaldi/Coleman. I love the darker tone it takes at times.

This one individual episode was weak, and while it's a shame it's in no way reflective of the rest of the series.

pixelburp · 15-11-2015 08:41PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

This thread has gone over the top with criticism of this series. It's good. The absence of an obvious arc is no harm. That said I agree there could be more historical stories preferably without aliens.

I'be been enjoying this series by and large, I don't think the criticism is too ott; this is the first episode I've genuinely disliked, but Dr Who has got a little stale: it's only natural 9 seasons in that some things feel a little ragged here and there. This episode only highlighted by dint of how rote, uninspired it all felt. The viking episode was generic as hell, but it felt fun and everyone was having a good time. This felt like filler really imo. Though I'd agree that calling this as bad as Love and Monsters is a bit ludicrous all right

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 15-11-2015 08:44PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I'be been enjoying this series by and large, I don't think the criticism is too ott; this is the first episode I've genuinely disliked, but Dr Who has got a little stale: it's only natural 9 seasons in that some things feel a little ragged here and there. This episode only highlighted by dint of how rote, uninspired it all felt. The viking episode was generic as hell, but it felt fun and everyone was having a good time. This felt like filler really imo

It really did. I mentioned it earlier but it felt like something that could have been in any previous series with any previous Doctor and companion. There was nothing to link it to anything that's come before. I wouldn't surprise me if Gatiss had handed in that script years ago and they hadn't been able to fit it into any of the other series. Even the fact it's "found footage" suggests that as a possibility.

ixoy · 15-11-2015 11:57PM

Thought it was grand, although probably would have worked better as 20 minutes. The science almost made the moon-as-egg seem plausible.

As to the calls for historical? Not going to happen I reckon. I don't think there's been a full-on historical since the Troughton era with the exception of 'Black Orchid'. The producers thought the kids viewing would be bored by it and ruled it out and I don't think this generation of producers are thinking any different. It's a shame as I'd really like it but then I'm in my 30s and they're trying to target people less than half my age...

Doctor DooM · 16-11-2015 10:28AM

Thought it was a good idea executed badly. I quite like the idea of "the bad guys win anyway" once the Doctor walks away. I'm not sure if it was the script or the editing but nothing really felt very impactful to any of it.

The whole "the sleep in your eyes is a monster" thing was suspension of disbelief bursting for me, personally, but usually I can't blame sci fi when that happens as it's a personal thing (for example in Aliens when I watch it now, the scene where they're checking a super high tech map machine- which has a physical map in it instead of a tablet or computer or hologram- usually pulls me out instead of, you know, giant rubber aliens

), but I THINK they were trying to say that's wrong and that the signal to your brain triggers a transformation into one of those sandmen thingies.

Very meh, first episode I've really been watching the clock in this year. Still miles better than some of the Tennant crappy episodes I see people defending though

Mr Bloat · 16-11-2015 11:48AM

I missed out on Doctor Who last weekend and watched The Zygon Inversion back to back with this episode last night and one thing that stood out for me was that there were references to 5 minutes equalling 1 month in both episodes. At the end of The Zygon Inversion, Clara said that the Doctor thought she had been dead for 5 minutes and he said that was the longest month of his life. In Sleep No More, 5 minutes in a Morpheus machine equalled a month of sleep and Clara was pulled into one of these machine. I wonder if there is some link between all of these?

Doctor DooM · 16-11-2015 01:32PM

Mr Bloat wrote: »

I missed out on Doctor Who last weekend and watched The Zygon Inversion back to back with this episode last night and one thing that stood out for me was that there were references to 5 minutes equalling 1 month in both episodes. At the end of The Zygon Inversion, Clara said that the Doctor thought she had been dead for 5 minutes and he said that was the longest month of his life. In Sleep No More, 5 minutes in a Morpheus machine equalled a month of sleep and Clara was pulled into one of these machine. I wonder if there is some link between all of these?

I think you might be on to something there. There's been multiple cases of Clara missing time.

what if she's never woken up from the Christmas episode like?

Angron · 16-11-2015 08:39PM

Kinda wish I'd followed the guy's advice at the start, and just not watched it.

corkie · 16-11-2015 08:55PM

"May the Gods look favorably upon you"

FloatingVoter · 17-11-2015 03:11AM

On the bright side, we have invisible London streets next week (JK Rowling has her lawyers on speed dial) and Maisie Williams back.
She's only 18 but she is going places. Going into two handers with the likes of Capaldi and that little internet bullying piece she did earlier in the year prove that. Reece Shearsmith on the other hand was always Richard E Grant on a budget.
As for the script-in-a-drawer theory, Mark Gatiss is an accomplished actor, documentary maker, screenwriter and probably does crochet too. And busy bees don't make great honey. He probably has a script in his mother's drawers, never mind his own. Oh look, Mark, an underpants Who. This was one of them.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 17-11-2015 12:15PM

^Maisie Williams can even do a half decent Irish accent. She did a great little film called Gold a year or so ago which also features an amazing James Nesbit 80's style PE teacher/self help guru.

FloatingVoter · 17-11-2015 02:31PM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

^Maisie Williams can even do a half decent Irish accent. She did a great little film called Gold a year or so ago which also features an amazing James Nesbit 80's style PE teacher/self help guru.

I saw that. Well worth a watch. Loose on the web as the odds of it showing up on TV are minimal. Nesbitt on holidays from Hobbit duties and obviously enjoying himself.

jasonb · 17-11-2015 10:29PM

Yep, that was pretty bad alright! As others have said, sleep dust in the corner of your eye turning into monsters?

That said, I think what the story was *trying* to say was that everything we saw did happen, but the reasons given for the Monsters (sleep dust, pores that were going to infect the humans etc.) was all either made up (if said by the guy who was on the space station) or just incorrectly guessed/deducted (if said by the Doctor, Clara etc.). When it comes down to it, using the Morpheus machines slowly but surely turns you into the monster, and that's due to the signal in the machine messing with your head. And that's the signal that the guy on the station implanted into the video, in the hope it would 'infect' everyone who watched it.

At least, that's what I think the plot was, and as said it was left open ended as to whether the Doctor was going to save the day or not.

The concept of this episode has a lot in common with the BBC Audio / David Tennant CD called 'Dead Air'. It too is 'found footage' (though it's audio in this case) and also has a 'signal' in the audio recording. The main different though is that 'Dead Air' was an excellent, atmospheric and moving story with a very cool 'monster' and a great plot, and 'Sleep No More' just... isn't.

If you haven't heard Dead Air, I truly recommend it...

J.

Penn · 20-11-2015 05:25PM

A poor idea executed poorly. Even though last series had some pretty poor episodes, Capaldi's performance saved them all. Not here though, where both he and Clara were pretty bland.

It can only get better from here though, and it looks like it could be a great final set of episodes.

exaisle · 21-11-2015 10:55PM

malcy wrote: »

Mark Gatiss is my top choice to take over as showrunner. A great writing talent and a fan of the show who i think gets it a bit more than Moffat does.

Yes...I'd go along with that. IMHO Moffat has never come close to Russell T Davies whom he succeeded as exec producer and head writed. I had great hopes and he's been very prolific but I can't help but feel that there's a certain amount of formulaic writing going on and that he just has his fingers in too many pies....

[Mod Note - following spoiler is for Episode 10 NOT Episode 9]

Sorry to see JLC go, although I never realised quite how eh....well-endowed she was until the side shot just before her demise... ;-)

jasonb · 21-11-2015 11:46PM

Ha! My wife pointed that out as well, she was noticeably a lot more 'booby' in this episode than in others, and that shot showed that to its full effect!

J.

**Spoilers** Series 9, Episode 9 - "Sleep No More"

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Spoilers Series 9, Episode 9 - "Sleep No More"