Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

ihatemyfish · 17-11-2015 04:46AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As far as I am concerned it is time to end Schengen and increase controls at our border. Lunatics can't be reasoned or bargained with. This could happen in Dublin with only a couple of fanatics. We have to secure our borders. We have to stop left wing ideology that has invited this event on France.

How the powers that be can be so stupid is beyond me.

End it now. Close borders. Enough of this "but" bull**** from clerics and the like. And as an Irish person I am ashamed and embarrassed that we call ourselves "neutral" between democracy and terror. The minority loud talkers don't speak for me.

The French have called for a suspension of Schengen this evening. Now we need to secure our exterior borders.

Irish_rat · 17-11-2015 05:01AM

I hope to fúck that those 4,000 Syrians wont be arriving on our shores. The less Muslim's in this country, the better, for our future and our children's future. Our country is too small to be letting any percentage of the rodents in that batch infect the place. The government should grab a pair.

Banned

Nodin · 17-11-2015 06:37AM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

The Ayatollahs Komeini 's little green book has a page or two on the colonialist philosophy, and justifies murder to achieve world domination. It's readable online as a pdf file, just Google it. It's great to try and understand their mindset, what's boggling is how you can brainwash someone to adopt it.

The Shiah are not the source of jihadis attacking like IS and Al Qaeda.

Mountainsandh · 17-11-2015 09:00AM

Nodin and Builderplumber, I am posting this pretty much in ignorance of muslim sub factions and groups.

It is purely my simple observation that these quotes seem to fit the current extremists' agenda.

I read the Green book some time ago, trying to understand islam's stronger stance, you know, how they can get to a point where they think what they think.

The types of quotes as below seem to me to pretty much fit the ambitions the current terrorist groups have, again, in total ignorance on my part :

Jihad means the conquest of all non-Muslim territories. Such a war
may well be declared after the formation of an Islamic government
worthy of that name, at the direction of the Imam or under his
orders. It will then be the duty of every able-bodied adult male to
volunteer for this war of conquest, the final aim of which is to put
Qur’anic law in power from one end of the earth to the other. But the
The Little Green Book — Ayatollah Khomeini
2
whole world should understand that the universal supremacy of
Islam is considerably different from the hegemony of other
conquerors.

... Islamic faith and justice demand that within the Muslim world, antiIslamic
governments not be allowed to survive. The installation of a
lay public power is equivalent to actively opposing the progress of
Islamic order. ... we have no recourse other than to overthrow all
governments that do not rest on pure Islamic principles, and are
thus traitorous, rotten, unjust, and tyrannical administrative
systems that server them. That is not only our duty in Iran, but it is
also the duty of all Muslims in the world, in all Muslim countries, to
carry the Islamic political revolution to its final victory.

What do you understand of the harmony between social life and
religious principles? And more important, just what is the social life
we are talking about? Is it those hotbeds of immorality called
theaters, cinemas, dancing, and music? Is it the promiscuous
presence in the streets of lusting young men and women with arms,
chests, and thighs bared? Is it the ludicrous wearing of a hat like the
Europeans or the imitation of their habit of wine drinking? We are
convinced that you have been made to lose your ability to distinguish
between good and evil, in exchange for a few radio sets and ludicrous
Western hats.

All governments of the world rely upon the power of their bayonets.
We know of no monarchy or republic in the world today which is
based upon equity and reason; and all maintain themselves in power
only through oppression.

If the punitive laws of Islam were applied for only one year, all the
devastating injustices and immoralities would be uprooted.
Misdeeds must be punished by the law of retaliation: cut off the
hands of the thief; kill the murderer instead of putting him in prison;
flog the adulterous woman or man. Your concerns, your
“humanitarian” scruples are more childish than reasonable.

etc... etc... there are just too many quotes there.

It helps me understand, although I don't understand who follows who.
And I still don't understand how one can relinquish one's sense of what's right and wrong to work along with such principles, on the premise that their Imam says the information and rules come straight from God. Same with Catholics anyway in my case, I'm not religious.

Superhorse · 17-11-2015 09:11AM

Irish_rat wrote: »

I hope to fúck that those 4,000 Syrians wont be arriving on our shores. The less Muslim's in this country, the better, for our future and our children's future. Our country is too small to be letting any percentage of the rodents in that batch infect the place. The government should grab a pair.

+1

Banned

Annasopra · 17-11-2015 09:24AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As far as I am concerned it is time to end Schengen and increase controls at our border. Lunatics can't be reasoned or bargained with. This could happen in Dublin with only a couple of fanatics. We have to secure our borders. We have to stop left wing ideology that has invited this event on France.

How the powers that be can be so stupid is beyond me.

End it now. Close borders. Enough of this "but" bull**** from clerics and the like. And as an Irish person I am ashamed and embarrassed that we call ourselves "neutral" between democracy and terror. The minority loud talkers don't speak for me.

Well then Britain should have closed its borders to all Irish because of the IRA.

fed up sick and tired · 17-11-2015 09:47AM

BoatMad wrote: »

They are quite legitimately called Belgians and French citizens as that is exactly what they are.

what they believe in does not change their birthplace

Absolutely disagree. This is a drastically misinformed view of citizenship, and indeed identity.

Without getting into the niceties of jus sanguinis or jus soli, there were plenty of second-generation Irish on the sites in my time, and if you suggested they were English by virtue of place of birth...

.

ihatemyfish · 17-11-2015 09:53AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well then Britain should have closed its borders to all Irish because of the IRA.

Probably should have, yeah. Anyway, we most definitely should close our exterior borders. Having open borders with a region filled with ISIS and other headbangers is lunacy at best. Suicidal at worst.

ihatemyfish · 17-11-2015 09:57AM

fed up sick and tired wrote: »

Absolutely disagree. This is a drastically misinformed view of citizenship, and indeed identity.

Without getting into the niceties of jus sanguinisor jus soli, there were plenty of second-generation Irish on the sites in my time, and if you suggested they were English by virtue of place of birth...

Speaking of citizenship, the French president is pushing for legislation that allows them strip French born terrorists of their citizenship.

Can't link but put "French president strip citizenship terrorists" into Google and it should pop up.

dissed doc · 17-11-2015 10:05AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well then Britain should have closed its borders to all Irish because of the IRA.

They (the UK security services) did undertake a huge amount of screening of Irish people at all entry points to the country for a very long time. And this was in the days before the ability of terrorists to communicate instantly about the location and activity of security forces. At the same time as this Irish-focussed screening, they also infiltrated the IRA itself.

30 years later, and while that same level of screening is no longer allowed due to dangerous and flawed anti-discrimination laws, the UK and other major western security services are consistently failing to infiltrate the internationalist terror organisations.

Furthermore, we have policies regarding national security from Brussels that actively work against the interests of the original citizens of the EU countries. This was recently seen with how Merkel and Hollande responded to the asylum crisis. Initially ridicule of Hungary, but now we see that the group-think inside the EU and Brussels leadership is actually leading to seemingly relentless amount of terror attacks.

The reality and law that you live under, is up to you. If you do not want illegals and terrorists, and want your interests protected in your own home, then make it known. If you do not, then someone else who wants THEIR interests protected over yours, will leave you for dead, literally.

There is no absolute moral right in this issue on the side of the west or the side of ISIS. There is only the idea of wanting to preserve your life , your families and society. If you give it away, you have only yourself to blame. Someone wins, someone loses. The arrogance to assume you will win, because you have been alive up until this point with little challenge, is the point of failure.

17-11-2015 10:06AM

ihatemyfish wrote: »

Speaking of citizenship, the French president is pushing for legislation that allows them strip French born terrorists of their citizenship.

Can't link but put "French president strip citizenship terrorists" into Google and it should pop up.

Sounds like a good idea, enemies of the state don't deserve the right of citizenship of that state. That rule could be applied to just about any country.

seamus · 17-11-2015 10:23AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea, enemies of the state don't deserve the right of citizenship of that state. That rule could be applied to just about any country.

I think most countries have that. The Minister for Justice has the power to revoke citizenship here in Ireland.

Hollande is full of hot air at the moment though. Terrorist or otherwise, international rules mean that you cannot strip someone of their citizenship/nationality unless they have a second one to fall back on.

If terrorists or suspected terrorists have not claimed any other nationality, Hollande cannot strip their French nationality from them no matter how much hot air he blows.

kleefarr · 17-11-2015 10:24AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea, enemies of the state don't deserve the right of citizenship of that state. That rule could be applied to just about any country.

Should be hanged for treason.

StewartGriffin · 17-11-2015 10:29AM

ihatemyfish wrote: »

Now we need to secure our exterior borders.

Geography has done a pretty good job of that already, surrounding us with ocean and all.

Samaris · 17-11-2015 10:45AM

The conversation in here is rather going around in circles, so going to interupt for a moment to put in this. It's the words of Antoine Leiris, whose wife Helen Muyal-Leiris was murdered on Friday in the attacks.

'You will not have my hatred'

"On Friday evening you stole the life of an exceptional person, the love of my life, the mother of my son, but you will not have my hatred.

"I don’t know who you are and I don’t want to know, you are dead souls. If this God for whom you kill blindly made us in his image, every bullet in the body of my wife is a wound in his heart.

"So no, I will not give you the satisfaction of hating you. You want it, but to respond to hatred with anger would be to give in to the same ignorance that made you what you are.

"You would like me to be scared, for me to look at my fellow citizens with a suspicious eye, for me to sacrifice my liberty for my security. You have lost. The player still plays.

"I saw her this morning. At last, after nights and days of waiting. She was as beautiful as when she left on Friday evening, as beautiful as when I fell head over heels in love with her more than 12 years ago.

"Of course I am devastated with grief, I grant you this small victory, but it will be short-lived.

"I know she will be with us every day and we will find each other in heaven with free souls which you will never have.

"Us two, my son and I, we will be stronger than every army in the world. I cannot waste any more time on you as I must go back to [my son] who has just woken from his sleep.

"He is only just 17 months old, he is going to eat his snack just like every other day, then we are going to play like every other day and all his life this little boy will be happy and free.

"Because you will never have his hatred either."

conorhal · 17-11-2015 10:52AM

ihatemyfish wrote: »

Speaking of citizenship, the French president is pushing for legislation that allows them strip French born terrorists of their citizenship.

Can't link but put "French president strip citizenship terrorists" into Google and it should pop up.

Meanwhile in this joke of a nation:

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/paris-terror-attacks/paris-terror-attacks-leading-islamic-state-terror-suspect-still-in-ireland-thanks-to-irishborn-son-34206995.html

The Irish Independent has learned that the suspect is a facilitator who provides cash and false documents, including passports, for radicalised young Western men intent on travelling to Syria to fight for Isil.

The terror suspect is the leader of a small group consisting of no more than 13 individuals, most of whom came to this country as political refugees.

They have addresses in counties Dublin, Kildare, Louth and Longford, and meet for prayers at a makeshift mosque outside Dublin.

Why is this creature not in jail for his activities? Why are he and his mates not on the first flight to Guantanamo Bay?

Francis Fitzgerald needs a kick up the hole. Is it that hard to put this man and his cronies in jail for their activities?

conorhal · 17-11-2015 10:57AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Well then Britain should have closed its borders to all Irish because of the IRA.

Eh... most of those Irish terrorists were (like their other home grown problem) British citizens from that part of Britian that they own over here. Care to explain exactly how you close your boarders from within your boarders? :rolleyes:

diddley · 17-11-2015 11:24AM

Samaris wrote: »

The conversation in here is rather going around in circles, so going to interupt for a moment to put in this. It's the words of Antoine Leiris, whose wife Helen Muyal-Leiris was murdered on Friday in the attacks.

'You will not have my hatred'

"On Friday evening you stole the life of an exceptional person, the love of my life, the mother of my son, but you will not have my hatred.

"I don’t know who you are and I don’t want to know, you are dead souls. If this God for whom you kill blindly made us in his image, every bullet in the body of my wife is a wound in his heart.

"So no, I will not give you the satisfaction of hating you. You want it, but to respond to hatred with anger would be to give in to the same ignorance that made you what you are.

"You would like me to be scared, for me to look at my fellow citizens with a suspicious eye, for me to sacrifice my liberty for my security. You have lost. The player still plays.

"I saw her this morning. At last, after nights and days of waiting. She was as beautiful as when she left on Friday evening, as beautiful as when I fell head over heels in love with her more than 12 years ago.

"Of course I am devastated with grief, I grant you this small victory, but it will be short-lived.

"I know she will be with us every day and we will find each other in heaven with free souls which you will never have.

"Us two, my son and I, we will be stronger than every army in the world. I cannot waste any more time on you as I must go back to [my son] who has just woken from his sleep.

"He is only just 17 months old, he is going to eat his snack just like every other day, then we are going to play like every other day and all his life this little boy will be happy and free.

"Because you will never have his hatred either."

That's cute and touching at all but I don't see how it adds to the debate. I mean it's fantastic that on a personal level this family will continue as best they can to live in peace but it doesn't address how to combat or punish the perpetrators.

I dunno.. sometimes I think it' great that Europe is now so peaceful after it's terrible history last century but at the same time I think sometimes this sentiment of peace will prevail is extremely misguided and naive. Yes most of us would like everyone in the world to stop warring but there has to be plans in place in the event of being attacked.

jimgoose · 17-11-2015 11:30AM

Samaris wrote: »

..."Because you will never have his hatred either."

That's all very laudable and fine, but you'll find that the average ISIS operative doesn't give a rattlin' fcuk who's hatred he has or doesn't have. No more than they care a whit for all the political grandstanding and head-buck-kiddery out of the likes of Obama and Hollande. They can have mine, for what it's worth, which isn't much. But in fairness it's the sort of hatred that tends to freeze into something very fast and sharp.

kunst nugget · 17-11-2015 11:33AM

diddley wrote: »

I dunno.. sometimes I think it' great that Europe is now so peaceful after it's terrible history last century but at the same time I think sometimes this sentiment of peace will prevail is extremely misguided and naive. Yes most of us would like everyone in the world to stop warring but there has to be plans in place in the event of being attacked.

What sort of attacks? Terrorist attacks? Attacks by other nations? Nuclear strikes?

diddley · 17-11-2015 11:36AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

What sort of attacks? Terrorist attacks? Attacks by other nations? Nuclear strikes?

Any/all?

kunst nugget · 17-11-2015 11:37AM

jimgoose wrote: »

That's all very laudable and fine, but you'll find that the average ISIS operative doesn't give a rattlin' fcuk who's hatred he has or doesn't have. No more than they care a whit for all the political grandstanding and head-buck-kiddery out of the likes of Obama and Hollande. They can have mine, for what it's worth, which isn't much. But in fairness it's the sort of hatred that tends to freeze into something very fast and sharp.

So if the Isis operative doesn't care who hates him or not why should this man have his life consumed by hatred when it's not going to make any difference anyway?

Better to live a life of peace than spend your days wishing death on others. Plenty of people on the internet are willing to do the job for you.

jimgoose · 17-11-2015 11:40AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

...Better to live a life of peace than spend your days wishing death on others. Plenty of people on the internet are willing to do the job for you.

Absolutely. Whatever enables the misfortunate man to get through the day.

Samaris · 17-11-2015 11:43AM

diddley wrote: »

That's cute and touching at all but I don't see how it adds to the debate. I mean it's fantastic that on a personal level this family will continue as best they can to live in peace but it doesn't address how to combat or punish the perpetrators.

I dunno.. sometimes I think it' great that Europe is now so peaceful after it's terrible history last century but at the same time I think sometimes this sentiment of peace will prevail is extremely misguided and naive. Yes most of us would like everyone in the world to stop warring but there has to be plans in place in the event of being attacked.

Because not all of dealing with a catastrophe IS about punishment and combat. Of course it's part of it, but a large part is also ensuring that the soul of the nation attacked isn't destroyed, that the people who were victimised can recover and continue. Else, as silly as the phrase is "the terrorists win". Their goal is to spread terror - yes, I do think pointing out that they have not succeeded is as important in its own way as the concrete protections that DO help stop further attacks, but also show that the terrorists have the attention and their method is getting them noticed - and feared.

R P McMurphy · 17-11-2015 11:52AM

conorhal wrote: »

Eh... most of those Irish terrorists were (like their other home grown problem) British citizens from that part of Britian that they own over here. Care to explain exactly how you close your boarders from within your boarders? :rolleyes:

While the vast majority of the IRA were from the 6 counties most of those that operated in Britain were from the Republic

Bannasidhe · 17-11-2015 12:05PM

ihatemyfish wrote: »

Probably should have, yeah.

And if they had think of how many more women would have found themselves in Magdalene Laundries, how many more children would have been in the hands of abusers in orphanages and industrial schools, how many more gay men would have lived miserable lives in the closet, how many more unbearable marriages would have continued with no legal escape route, how many more unemployed, homeless...

That fcuk the UK didn't knee jerk but allowed a hell of a lot of Irish people to escape conservative repression and an economy that was usually more bust than boom.

smash · 17-11-2015 12:13PM

How can a thread about a horrible massacre in France descend into a bullshit bickering match about the IRA and the Magdalene Laundries way back when?

Seriously guys...

Bannasidhe · 17-11-2015 12:14PM

dissed doc wrote: »

They (the UK security services) did undertake a huge amount of screening of Irish people at all entry points to the country for a very long time. And this was in the days before the ability of terrorists to communicate instantly about the location and activity of security forces. At the same time as this Irish-focussed screening, they also infiltrated the IRA itself.

They must have missed me. I traveled frequently (on average 10 times a year using planes and ferrys) between the UK and Ireland (various airports incl Heathrow/Gatwick/Luton/Manchester) at the height of the 80s bombing campaign and on occasion used my union membership card as ID with no problem - no photo on it just my name - and filled out the usual form on the plane.
10 years of this and the only time I got 'pulled' was when under 'reason for visit' I wrote 'coming to take your jobs' - they were not amused but when I pointed out I had 1 full-time job and 3 part-time and I wasn't lying they called me a smart arse and sent me on my way.

In fact the only time I was really questioned by security about why an Irish person was traveling to the UK so frequently was by the Swiss at Geneva Airport in 1984.

I clearly remember being on the old Slattery's Coach to London many times in the pre-Ryanair days and no checks whatsoever were made in the UK.

conorhal · 17-11-2015 12:15PM

smash wrote: »

How can a thread about a horrible massacre in France descend into a bullshit bickering match about the IRA and the Magdalene Laundries way back when?

Seriously guys...

Because whataboutery is king for the merchants of derailment.

Bannasidhe · 17-11-2015 12:18PM

smash wrote: »

How can a thread about a horrible massacre in France descend into a bullshit bickering match about the IRA and the Magdalene Laundries way back when?

Seriously guys...

Simples - because there are calls for closing borders to wide groups of people because less than 1% of them might be terrorists.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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