Purchase of ringed car - bona fida purcahser

Kurt105 · 16-11-2015 03:16PM #1

Hey,
I was hoping for some advice if possible, I’m after unknowingly buying a stolen “ringed “car from a private sale of done deal. The car was a duplicate of another car in Dublin. The car I purchased had all the identity marks change (chassis number, engine code, ECU remapped) so there was no way of telling I was buying a stolen vehicle. I did multiple checks on the car to ensure it was ok, like an online check, and I got a company who specialised in inspecting vehicles on second hand car purchases prior to the sale. When I found out I purchased a stolen vehicle I handed the car over to the guards.
Since then a friend put me onto a solicitor, and he reckons because I purchased the car in good faith it makes me a bona fida purcahser, and I can contend for ownership of the vehicle. The previous owners claimed of their insurance so I think it’s between them and me for who owns the vehicle. My solicitor is telling me that he can get the car back for me, put a lot of people I’m talking to are telling me there’s no way that can happen. I don’t know if I’m being taken advantage here with this guy or not and was hoping for some advice.

smash · 16-11-2015 03:25PM

How did they change the chassis number without removing and replacing the windscreen and part of the chassis?

Notch000 · 16-11-2015 03:29PM

do you know who the seller was & can still indentify them ??

Kurt105 · 16-11-2015 03:30PM

All good questions, I dont know

orm0nd · 16-11-2015 03:33PM

IMO the insurance co. owns the car

if your solicitor wants to persue this , do so on a no win no fee basis only

TallGlass · 16-11-2015 03:35PM

I think the insurance company own the car. So youll have to come to agreement with them over a settlement. Or should the first owners want it then they'll pay insurance company what ever it was wrote off for.

I think you'll be out of pocket on this one been honest. Best bet is try find the seller. Garda might have done forensics on car for prints. But don't hold out on it.

You could go solitior route I suppose. But I would gather a second option.

If it was me I would cut my losses on this one and try move on.

Sorry to hear also OP.

mickdw · 16-11-2015 03:36PM

Are you sure they actually changed all the markings and not just created a fake registration cert? - The online check would have found this out though if you entered all the chassis numbers.
It is very unusual for a car to be completely altered in the way you describe. If it has been so completely altered, what ties it to the stolen car that has been paid out on? How did you even know about the stolen car?

Kurt105 · 16-11-2015 03:44PM

Cheers,

Kurt105 · 16-11-2015 03:53PM

Not helping Mick

smash · 16-11-2015 04:00PM

Kurt105 wrote: »

Not helping Mick

It's a very valid question.

Xpro · 16-11-2015 04:57PM

We were in a similar situation 3 years ago. Purchased a BMW from UK, all paperwork matching,etc only after car went for a service the diagnostic machine read out a different vin. All went downhill afterwards.. Gardai notified, car taken back to compound, blah blah blah, never heard a word after, nor any money was ever recovered.

Insurance was void as the car was cloned, they refused to pay. We chased it for a while but no joy.

It was a very good job done, I never seen anything like it, window, chassis plate, stickers, all re-done to a OE standard. The only thing they left out was the ecu vin, and thats how we discovered the theft.

Kurt105 · 16-11-2015 05:14PM

Its crazy the detail they go to. It was done so well that the guards were actually handing me back the car at one stage saying it must be the other car that's rung, (there was 2 cars with the same details on e flow, that's how i found out)

mickdw · 16-11-2015 05:58PM

Kurt105 wrote: »

Its crazy the detail they go to. It was done so well that the guards were actually handing me back the car at one stage saying it must be the other car that's rung, (there was 2 cars with the same details on e flow, that's how i found out)

Don't get me wrong its a sh1t situation. I'm just trying to get my head around the whole situation.
So fair enough, 2 cars were found on e flow. You therefore know there is a cloned car.
How did you identify the real identity of the car you bought.
Perhaps the Gardai did their job and cross referenced the make and model against cars reported stolen but who made the decision that you had the stolen car and not the other car with the same plates.
Also did the professional inspection do everything they could have to establish the identity of the car?
Final point, For you to have legitimately bought this car, the real reg cert or official duplicate would have had to have been sent in. How did thieves have this?
Did this happen? Was it a duplicate etc?

my3cents · 16-11-2015 06:06PM

Does the OP have any come back against the "company who specialised in inspecting vehicles" he employed?

Marcusm · 16-11-2015 07:06PM

Kurt105 wrote: »

Hey,
I was hoping for some advice if possible, I’m after unknowingly buying a stolen “ringed “car from a private sale of done deal. The car was a duplicate of another car in Dublin. The car I purchased had all the identity marks change (chassis number, engine code, ECU remapped) so there was no way of telling I was buying a stolen vehicle. I did multiple checks on the car to ensure it was ok, like an online check, and I got a company who specialised in inspecting vehicles on second hand car purchases prior to the sale. When I found out I purchased a stolen vehicle I handed the car over to the guards.
Since then a friend put me onto a solicitor, and he reckons because I purchased the car in good faith it makes me a bona fida purcahser, and I can contend for ownership of the vehicle. The previous owners claimed of their insurance so I think it’s between them and me for who owns the vehicle. My solicitor is telling me that he can get the car back for me, put a lot of people I’m talking to are telling me there’s no way that can happen. I don’t know if I’m being taken advantage here with this guy or not and was hoping for some advice.

Your solicitor needs to advise you as to whether you are a bond fire purchaser for value without notice in which case you may have obtained true ownership of the goods irrespective of its true provenance. If you got a very good deal on price, your solicitor might be concerned. Conversely, the fact that you undertook a check might serve your position. Realistically on this, your solicitor is the only one you can advise. In the interim, ensure that the guards are informed so that they do not surrender possession to any other party.

Henry Ford III · 16-11-2015 07:23PM

my3cents wrote: »

Does the OP have any come back against the "company who specialised in inspecting vehicles" he employed?

Unlikely I'd imagine.

bear1 · 16-11-2015 08:04PM

I'm confused a bit, how did you discover that your car was the clone? The log book, was it genuine? What kind of car was it and how much did you pay?
I'm also wondering that if this car is a complete clone of another one then wouldn't it be scrapped?

George Dalton · 16-11-2015 09:41PM

This is a pointless thread. I don't see how the OP can expect to get any kind of worthwhile advice given the lack of detail they are providing.

Kurt105 · 17-11-2015 09:56AM

A special unit came out to identify both cars, there was underlying detail in the ECU that they could trace back to the original cars identity.
The guy who inspected the car was there perform a mechanical check on the car, and to see if the ECU had been altered (Clock wound back) that was my main concern when buying the car, not to sure if I can mention the company's name on the forum.

Mick I signed the duplicate cert and handed it back to the seller, he told that he'd post the cert in. All the paper work looked completely genuine, down to the tax disc, all had the holograms present.

Im not trying to make excuses for myself here but this was seriously well done.

Kurt105 · 17-11-2015 10:03AM

I went to register the car on eflow, they told me there was a second one on it, on to take the car to the guards. The car was a 2008 bmw, i paid 10,500 for the car.

I reckon they'd have to put the original identity back on the car. also the lock would need changed, BMW quoted 2,500 for this work already. The cars being lying up over a year now, so i reckon the disc will need changed all round, full service, maybe battery, not to sure about the tires, p[point being there's probably alot more work to do to the car. I think im better just righting this thing off.

saabsaab · 17-11-2015 10:26AM

Not sure if this will work. You could contact the insurance company directly to see if they could release their claim on the car to you?

Kurt105 · 17-11-2015 10:34AM

I tried that, there hanging onto the car, they way i see at-least 4 grand we'l need to be invested into the car to put it right. and then your left with a car with a bad history impossible to shift. Don't get me wrong, id love to see the car coming back to me, but i couldn't waste/pay any money on doing so.

smash · 17-11-2015 10:40AM

Kurt105 wrote: »

I signed the duplicate cert and handed it back to the seller, he told that he'd post the cert in. All the paper work looked completely genuine, down to the tax disc, all had the holograms present.

What do you mean by duplicate cert?

Kurt105 · 17-11-2015 10:43AM

Duplicate log book,

smash · 17-11-2015 10:45AM

Kurt105 wrote: »

Duplicate log book,

You don't get a duplicate log book. A car has 1 logbook at a time.

Kurt105 · 17-11-2015 10:47AM

They duplicated the originally log book, which i thought i was signing.

smash · 17-11-2015 10:52AM

Kurt105 wrote: »

They duplicated the originally log book, which i thought i was signing.

A car has one log book at a time. When you sell a car you send it back and a new one is issued to the new owner. There's no duplicates.

Did you get the log book back from the VRO?

Kurt105 · 17-11-2015 11:01AM

No, so they copied/ duplicated the log, obviously it was fake, hologram was present on the fake log book. They said they'd send the log-book away, which obviously they didn't.

mickdw · 17-11-2015 12:23PM

Kurt105 wrote: »

No, so they copied/ duplicated the log, obviously it was fake, hologram was present on the fake log book. They said they'd send the log-book away, which obviously they didn't.

This is what I was getting at. Was it a genuine replacement logbook. This can be obtained if owner claims they lost book or was it a fake book.
If preparing a fake book, it is often a case that they simply make the numbers match on the book without touching the car.
If it was a genuine logbook or genuine replacement, the owner of the real car relating to that book would have questions to answer.
I think they need to introduce more security features on the logbooks.

Kurt105 · 17-11-2015 01:30PM

Thats a good question, i don't know to be honest. Its something i didn't pay enough attention to during the exchange. But the guards called to the owner of the other BMW house, im sure if he had a doggy back-round they would have got suspicious,,,,

mickdw · 17-11-2015 02:18PM

You would have to question the professionals who checked the car for you.
There are alot of basic questions that you do not appear to have a clear answer for.
I recently saw a TT for sale cheap on donedeal. Did my research on motortax.ie and saw that a replacement book was issued a few days earlier. Asked the question from the seller as to whether they had applied for a replacement book and if so was the name on the book the same as the person who would be doing the deal.
Never heard from them again despite being most helpful to that point.
Alot of dodgy sh1t going down.
Nothing wrong with a replacement book but it's something else to check out.

Purchase of ringed car - bona fida purcahser

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