Purchase of ringed car - bona fida purcahser

Kurt105

Hey,
I was hoping for some advice if possible, I’m after unknowingly buying a stolen “ringed “car from a private sale of done deal. The car was a duplicate of another car in Dublin. The car I purchased had all the identity marks change (chassis number, engine code, ECU remapped) so there was no way of telling I was buying a stolen vehicle. I did multiple checks on the car to ensure it was ok, like an online check, and I got a company who specialised in inspecting vehicles on second hand car purchases prior to the sale. When I found out I purchased a stolen vehicle I handed the car over to the guards.
Since then a friend put me onto a solicitor, and he reckons because I purchased the car in good faith it makes me a bona fida purcahser, and I can contend for ownership of the vehicle. The previous owners claimed of their insurance so I think it’s between them and me for who owns the vehicle. My solicitor is telling me that he can get the car back for me, put a lot of people I’m talking to are telling me there’s no way that can happen. I don’t know if I’m being taken advantage here with this guy or not and was hoping for some advice.

smash

How did they change the chassis number without removing and replacing the windscreen and part of the chassis?

Notch000

do you know who the seller was & can still indentify them ??

Kurt105

All good questions, I dont know

orm0nd

IMO the insurance co. owns the car

if your solicitor wants to persue this , do so on a no win no fee basis only

TallGlass

I think the insurance company own the car. So youll have to come to agreement with them over a settlement. Or should the first owners want it then they'll pay insurance company what ever it was wrote off for.

I think you'll be out of pocket on this one been honest. Best bet is try find the seller. Garda might have done forensics on car for prints. But don't hold out on it.

You could go solitior route I suppose. But I would gather a second option.

If it was me I would cut my losses on this one and try move on.

Sorry to hear also OP.

mickdw

Are you sure they actually changed all the markings and not just created a fake registration cert? - The online check would have found this out though if you entered all the chassis numbers.
It is very unusual for a car to be completely altered in the way you describe. If it has been so completely altered, what ties it to the stolen car that has been paid out on? How did you even know about the stolen car?

Kurt105

Cheers,

Kurt105

Not helping Mick

smash

Kurt105 wrote: »

Not helping Mick

It's a very valid question.

Xpro

We were in a similar situation 3 years ago. Purchased a BMW from UK, all paperwork matching,etc only after car went for a service the diagnostic machine read out a different vin. All went downhill afterwards.. Gardai notified, car taken back to compound, blah blah blah, never heard a word after, nor any money was ever recovered.

Insurance was void as the car was cloned, they refused to pay. We chased it for a while but no joy.

It was a very good job done, I never seen anything like it, window, chassis plate, stickers, all re-done to a OE standard. The only thing they left out was the ecu vin, and thats how we discovered the theft.

Kurt105

Its crazy the detail they go to. It was done so well that the guards were actually handing me back the car at one stage saying it must be the other car that's rung, (there was 2 cars with the same details on e flow, that's how i found out)

mickdw

Kurt105 wrote: »

Its crazy the detail they go to. It was done so well that the guards were actually handing me back the car at one stage saying it must be the other car that's rung, (there was 2 cars with the same details on e flow, that's how i found out)

Don't get me wrong its a sh1t situation. I'm just trying to get my head around the whole situation.
So fair enough, 2 cars were found on e flow. You therefore know there is a cloned car.
How did you identify the real identity of the car you bought.
Perhaps the Gardai did their job and cross referenced the make and model against cars reported stolen but who made the decision that you had the stolen car and not the other car with the same plates.
Also did the professional inspection do everything they could have to establish the identity of the car?
Final point, For you to have legitimately bought this car, the real reg cert or official duplicate would have had to have been sent in. How did thieves have this?
Did this happen? Was it a duplicate etc?

my3cents

Does the OP have any come back against the "company who specialised in inspecting vehicles" he employed?

Marcusm

Kurt105 wrote: »

Hey,
I was hoping for some advice if possible, I’m after unknowingly buying a stolen “ringed “car from a private sale of done deal. The car was a duplicate of another car in Dublin. The car I purchased had all the identity marks change (chassis number, engine code, ECU remapped) so there was no way of telling I was buying a stolen vehicle. I did multiple checks on the car to ensure it was ok, like an online check, and I got a company who specialised in inspecting vehicles on second hand car purchases prior to the sale. When I found out I purchased a stolen vehicle I handed the car over to the guards.
Since then a friend put me onto a solicitor, and he reckons because I purchased the car in good faith it makes me a bona fida purcahser, and I can contend for ownership of the vehicle. The previous owners claimed of their insurance so I think it’s between them and me for who owns the vehicle. My solicitor is telling me that he can get the car back for me, put a lot of people I’m talking to are telling me there’s no way that can happen. I don’t know if I’m being taken advantage here with this guy or not and was hoping for some advice.

Your solicitor needs to advise you as to whether you are a bond fire purchaser for value without notice in which case you may have obtained true ownership of the goods irrespective of its true provenance. If you got a very good deal on price, your solicitor might be concerned. Conversely, the fact that you undertook a check might serve your position. Realistically on this, your solicitor is the only one you can advise. In the interim, ensure that the guards are informed so that they do not surrender possession to any other party.

Henry Ford III

my3cents wrote: »

Does the OP have any come back against the "company who specialised in inspecting vehicles" he employed?

Unlikely I'd imagine.

bear1

I'm confused a bit, how did you discover that your car was the clone? The log book, was it genuine? What kind of car was it and how much did you pay?
I'm also wondering that if this car is a complete clone of another one then wouldn't it be scrapped?

George Dalton

This is a pointless thread. I don't see how the OP can expect to get any kind of worthwhile advice given the lack of detail they are providing.

Kurt105

A special unit came out to identify both cars, there was underlying detail in the ECU that they could trace back to the original cars identity.
The guy who inspected the car was there perform a mechanical check on the car, and to see if the ECU had been altered (Clock wound back) that was my main concern when buying the car, not to sure if I can mention the company's name on the forum.

Mick I signed the duplicate cert and handed it back to the seller, he told that he'd post the cert in. All the paper work looked completely genuine, down to the tax disc, all had the holograms present.

Im not trying to make excuses for myself here but this was seriously well done.

Kurt105

I went to register the car on eflow, they told me there was a second one on it, on to take the car to the guards. The car was a 2008 bmw, i paid 10,500 for the car.

I reckon they'd have to put the original identity back on the car. also the lock would need changed, BMW quoted 2,500 for this work already. The cars being lying up over a year now, so i reckon the disc will need changed all round, full service, maybe battery, not to sure about the tires, p[point being there's probably alot more work to do to the car. I think im better just righting this thing off.

saabsaab

Not sure if this will work. You could contact the insurance company directly to see if they could release their claim on the car to you?

Kurt105

I tried that, there hanging onto the car, they way i see at-least 4 grand we'l need to be invested into the car to put it right. and then your left with a car with a bad history impossible to shift. Don't get me wrong, id love to see the car coming back to me, but i couldn't waste/pay any money on doing so.

smash

Kurt105 wrote: »

I signed the duplicate cert and handed it back to the seller, he told that he'd post the cert in. All the paper work looked completely genuine, down to the tax disc, all had the holograms present.

What do you mean by duplicate cert?

Kurt105

Duplicate log book,

smash

Kurt105 wrote: »

Duplicate log book,

You don't get a duplicate log book. A car has 1 logbook at a time.

Kurt105

They duplicated the originally log book, which i thought i was signing.

smash

Kurt105 wrote: »

They duplicated the originally log book, which i thought i was signing.

A car has one log book at a time. When you sell a car you send it back and a new one is issued to the new owner. There's no duplicates.

Did you get the log book back from the VRO?

Kurt105

No, so they copied/ duplicated the log, obviously it was fake, hologram was present on the fake log book. They said they'd send the log-book away, which obviously they didn't.

mickdw

Kurt105 wrote: »

No, so they copied/ duplicated the log, obviously it was fake, hologram was present on the fake log book. They said they'd send the log-book away, which obviously they didn't.

This is what I was getting at. Was it a genuine replacement logbook. This can be obtained if owner claims they lost book or was it a fake book.
If preparing a fake book, it is often a case that they simply make the numbers match on the book without touching the car.
If it was a genuine logbook or genuine replacement, the owner of the real car relating to that book would have questions to answer.
I think they need to introduce more security features on the logbooks.

Kurt105

Thats a good question, i don't know to be honest. Its something i didn't pay enough attention to during the exchange. But the guards called to the owner of the other BMW house, im sure if he had a doggy back-round they would have got suspicious,,,,

mickdw

You would have to question the professionals who checked the car for you.
There are alot of basic questions that you do not appear to have a clear answer for.
I recently saw a TT for sale cheap on donedeal. Did my research on motortax.ie and saw that a replacement book was issued a few days earlier. Asked the question from the seller as to whether they had applied for a replacement book and if so was the name on the book the same as the person who would be doing the deal.
Never heard from them again despite being most helpful to that point.
Alot of dodgy sh1t going down.
Nothing wrong with a replacement book but it's something else to check out.

bear1

Not getting at you OP but in the future whether you are spending 1k on a car or 10k always bring an envelope with you stamped and ready to go to Shannon.
You then go to with the seller to the PO and post it. Only way you can guarantee that it was sent.

Kurt105

Through, but even in the case, he'd would off posted a dude and id be none the wiser.

slimjimmc

mickdw wrote: »

You would have to question the professionals who checked the car for you.

I don't think the OP hired anyone to forensically verify the car's identity, he hired him to check the car mechanically and to verify the mileage stored in the ECU wasn't altered.

Kurt105

True, I wouldn't like to blame the guy who inspected the car, its wasn't in his scope of work to unsure the cars identity hadn't been altered.

millington

bear1 wrote: »

Not getting at you OP but in the future whether you are spending 1k on a car or 10k always bring an envelope with you stamped and ready to go to Shannon.
You then go to with the seller to the PO and post it. Only way you can guarantee that it was sent.

Which would make no difference since Shannon would get a fake book and then notify the owner of the original car I'm sure?

mickdw

Kurt105 wrote: »

True, I wouldn't like to blame the guy who inspected the car, its wasn't in his scope of work to unsure the cars identity hadn't been altered.

Undertaking that work, I believe he should be looking out for / able to identify a fake logbook. Also, taking audi for example, very cheap diagnostic kit will read the chassis number from the ecu.

This happened to my uncle with an M3,
he actually bought it from a main dealer and ended up being allowed to keep the car.
Might of even got it cheaper in the end.
If a main dealer can fall for a scam what chance does your average joe have?

savagethegoat

Apart from the money aspect, would you even want the car back? It would have no id and you'd have to jump through hoops to get one and you probably would never be able to sell it and insuring it may be an issue too.

Kurt105

True, im thinking about cutting my losses, its hard to say goodbye to 10,500 euro though.

savagethegoat

hard indeed.

cruizer101

Where did you buy the car from, given how you got inspection and that I'm assuming you bought privately from someone's house and not just met in car park, have the guards called round there. I know this is kind of off topic from the information you are looking but just curious if you don't mind me asking.

Kurt105

I seen the advertisement on done deal, the guy wanted to met in Dublin but he had to drop down to limerick that day so i met him in my home town carlow. I actually brought the car to the guards after being told to by eflow, (Maybe not the smartest move, but that's what i was advise to do by a friend whos a guard.

Harry Palmr

Jesus crisps, never ever buy a car from some bloke at your home or a "third" location. Always go to the seller and seek verification that the car is registered to the person at the address that you go to.

mickdw

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Jesus crisps, never ever buy a car from some bloke at your home or a "third" location. Always go to the seller and seek verification that the car is registered to the person at the address that you go to.

Yep. Mistakes were made here.
Even if the car had all its numbers changed etc and a false logbook, meeting at address on book with the owner as listed and seeing a copy of that persons driving licence would have added another level of difficulty for the fraud to be successful.
They would then be needing fake licence, use of the house at the address given etc.

bear1

Kurt105 wrote: »

I seen the advertisement on done deal, the guy wanted to met in Dublin but he had to drop down to limerick that day so i met him in my home town carlow. I actually brought the car to the guards after being told to by eflow, (Maybe not the smartest move, but that's what i was advise to do by a friend whos a guard.

Hard luck and lesson learnt at this stage. Few points to take away after this experience:

1) Always meet at the registered keepers house, if they say no lets me in a car park then refuse point blank

2) when at the sellers house always match the name on the book to the persons ID

3) always go with the seller to the post office to send the log book.

Hope everything works out for you

savagethegoat

to add....genuine logbooks have a dot on them you can rub and it changes colour if genuine.

uck51js9zml2yt

How did you pay for the car?
Have you been able to trace the sellers and are the Guards following up to prosecute them?

mickdw

Im guessing cash

bear1

mickdw wrote: »

Im guessing cash

Ok and the next point is to pay in a bank draft, especially for 10.5k. Or is that just me?

mickdw

I've paid 9k cash in the past.
The way things are now its getting dodgy I admit.
I think, certainly for expensive sales there is a business in creating a private sales process for cars via legal professionals. Sounds like overkill but if a simple low cost process was made available as an option, it would be worth considering.
Funds would be cleared and held at solicitor before ownership of car would be transferred.
With the legals involved, I'd say it would be easy for them to also offer an insurance product against buying ringers if you undertook to have professional inspection also.
So you might have a case of a simple sale via a legal professional costing in the low hundreds or perhaps inspection and insurance included costing the guts of 1000 euro. Certainly something to consider if spending 30k on a private sale.