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Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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Comments

  • #4532
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    jimgoose wrote: »
    I'd say psychopathy per sé is about the last thing we're looking at here. These characters care deeply about something.

    I get what you're saying. There's just not another word I can think of to describe them. Sure they've been brainwashed in same shape or form but a lot of these guys aren't born in to it, they tend to seek it out.


  • #4533
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Why bother thinking about why? By calling him baby faced it implies that he was young or naive or innocent on some way. The guy was a psycho and that's all that matters.

    Radicalised people, whether they are in balcombe street , bataclan , the GPO , or flying at the world trade Centre ate not psychos. Not at all , in fact they are often quiet intellectual types.

    You underestimate the power of a " cause " , especially one you deeply come to believe in. Ordinary people do " extraordinary " things when that happens.

    " we " of course paint them as psychos, terrorists , madmen, before that avoids us having to think about the reality. Demonisation avoids introspection


  • #4534
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Anger.

    To say something like they "care deeply about anger" is to call them nasty, anger-caring-about persons and is well-and-fine but does no more than call them yet another name. What has me fascinated is the draw the desert and the idea of a 12th-century Caliphate sort of setup has for educated, capable young bucks who were born and bred in Western European cities.


  • #4535
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    BoatMad wrote: »
    As an Irishman , I would disagree , most ferociously with " we are a colonised and broken nation"

    We have tremendous national pride And solidarity, sometimes too much

    Also we have to define what you mean Irish for an Irish nation     , Dev tried that , look where it got us, priest ridden , backward facing and economically broke.

    Small countries have to face outwards not inwards.

    I would look to Japan as a model nation, as a non religious person/atheist , I wouldnt like to see us return to Catholic Ireland of the past.

    Judging by our newspapers, politicians, and embrace of the open borders "refugees welcome", rabid love of the EU and promotion of "multiculturalism" and the risible "new Irish" moniker, not forgetting our rejection of our own language, I would say we dont have much national pride and solidarity. I would say we have an inferiority complex and have sold our sovereignty to the EU for a few miles of asphalt.
    Do as Japan does, take in new ideas, not people. In the space of twenty years Ireland has gone from nearly zero to over 10% non Irish, and the likes of the Immigrant council of Ireland and plenty of Irish people would see this as not enough, what is the end goal? 20%? 30%?

    this all ties into Paris, as Japan is a homogeneous nation doesnt have any of the social problems that come with multiculturalism, its a proven formula for peace and prosperity.


  • #4536
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    In a European context there was a point when Fundamentalist Christianity held sway and anything or anyone that did not conform was ruthlessly destroyed - at the same time much of the knowledge that was under threat was being preserved by the Caliphate of Cordoba. This is a historical fact which I raised when some people wanted to claim that Islam has always been a murderous, bloodthirsty religion that seeks to destroy Europe.

    I am not arguing with that fact.
    If you look I agreed and even mentioned the contributions to astronomy and mathematics.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I just heard a security analyst (didn't catch his name) on Radio One make the same points I did about extremism and the need to win the battle against it. My concern is that their is a dangerous Right Wing element using this crisis to try and destroy Liberal Democratic Europe as surely as ISIS are. I don't care what the insignia on the black shirt that reigns by terror is - I care that we stop all of them.

    The problem is that most of the politicians are ignoring peoples' worries, adopting attitudes that they know better which leads to people turning to politicians or organisations that do listen.

    The EU for all it's achievements has led to a Europe where people are dictated to and told that the EU and it's leadership know best.
    Merkel started down a very dangerous road and started lambasting other nations for not throwing open the doors.
    Just because she might come from a people and state that has a guilt complex, resulting from the dispicable behaviour of it's past citizens, doesn't mean the rest of us should adopt that complex.

    There has been a dangerous precedence being set by media and people of certain political leanings whereby they label anyone that doesn't agree with them as some sort of racist or bigot.
    If you don't want wholesale immigration you are a racist, a bigot or some such.
    We see ever other day on these discussion forums.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Why have second generation Muslims turned to extremism - we need to find the answer to that question if we are going to stop it happening. Violence will not stop it - it will feed it.

    And in the meantime while you are discussing with them why they are disenchanted, what do you suggest we do with the ones going off to Syria or the ones recruiting for ISIS ?

    And if you want to see how screwed up the West and EU has become take as an example Abu Hamza who used our very own rules to ensure he could stay in the very country that he was professing hate for and encouraging others to hate and overthrow.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    This is not the same kind of threat as the Nazis so comparisons are not really accurate.

    It is liberalism they are trying to defeat. Can you not see that?

    But what is liberalism ?
    To me it is the right for the citizens of a country to practice their faith or lack of it, live in a non discriminatory atmosphere that doesn't discriminate based on religion/race or sex, have equal access to the rule of law no matter who they are, have equal access to healthcare and education no matter who they are.

    Liberalism doesn't mean I tolerate people who set out to discriminate or subjugate based on sex, even if it is their cack eyed religious or cultural believes.
    Liberalism doesn't mean I tolerate people who want to overthrow the freedoms that have been hard won over generations.

    Liberalism doesn't mean I welcome in even more people who don't believe in the freedoms as stated above.

    I think what some people see as liberalism will inevitably defeat itself.
    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Do you work for ISIS? Because i think your goals are completely aligned. They use violence. You use the internet. All leads to the same place.

    I can't believe you equated poster here on an internet forum with being the equivalent of ISIS member.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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  • #4537
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jimgoose wrote: »
    To say something like they "care deeply about anger" is to call them nasty, anger-caring-about persons and is well-and-fine but does no more than call them yet another name. What has me fascinated is the draw the desert and the idea of a 12th-century Caliphate sort of setup has for educated, capable young bucks who were born and bred in Western European cities.

    ....is it that though, or the idea of running round with guns, a cause and power over others?


  • #4538
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Superhorse wrote: »
    If I could thank this post more than once I would. Pretty much bang on the money.

    Pretty much a classic " head in the sand" approach if you ask me , a metaphorical building up of sand bags , while all the time the waters rise. The flood always happens and the sand bag fillers then stand around looking bewildered

    A functioning society however , goes out an works out what to do about the potential for floods and acts in advance


  • #4539
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    questionmark? wrote: »
    My point stands that what happens close to home always takes on a bigger meaning

    I'll try to help you. The above statement is your argument for the idea that most people would be more shocked by France than Lebanon due to it being closer to home.

    I countered by pointing out that, in Seattle yesterday, people were holding up French flags in support. There was no support shown for the Lebanese victims. Seattle is on the other side of the world to France yet the French tragedy mattered more than the Lebanese one. That disproves your above assertion.

    So what i am "seeing" is basic English.


  • #4540
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    I would look to Japan as a model nation, as a non religious person/atheist , I wouldnt like to see us return to Catholic Ireland of the past.

    Judging by our newspapers, politicians, and embrace of the open borders "refugees welcome", rabid love of the EU and promotion of "multiculturalism" and the risible "new Irish" moniker, not forgetting our rejection of our own language, I would say we dont have much national pride and solidarity. I would say we have an inferiority complex and have sold our sovereignty to the EU for a few miles of asphalt.
    Do as Japan does, take in new ideas, not people. In the space of twenty years Ireland has gone from nearly zero to over 10% non Irish, and the likes of the Immigrant council of Ireland and plenty of Irish people would see this as not enough, what is the end goal? 20%? 30%?

    this all ties into Paris, as Japan is a homogeneous nation doesnt have any of the social problems that come with multiculturalism, its a proven formula for peace and prosperity.

    You're using a thread about a massacre in Paris to whinge about Poles?


  • #4541
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    jimgoose wrote: »
    To say something like they "care deeply about anger" is to call them nasty, anger-caring-about persons and is well-and-fine but does no more than call them yet another name. What has me fascinated is the draw the desert and the idea of a 12th-century Caliphate sort of setup has for educated, capable young bucks who were born and bred in Western European cities.

    You need to follow the history of Arab nationalism , the quest for Arab nationhood, to understand the attraction of a Caliphate .

    Add in , in Western Europe , social and cultural isolation, a materialistic culture, deprivation and you have all the ingredients for radicalisation.

    However western radicalised Muslims are a tiny pimple on the backside of the issues.


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  • #4542
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    jimgoose wrote: »
    What has me fascinated is the draw the desert and the idea of a 12th-century Caliphate sort of setup has for educated, capable young bucks who were born and bred in Western European cities.

    Anger again. None of these Muslims youths being picked up in Paris, Lyon or Brussels are planning a life of university, good job, wealth etc. They are France's janitors and cleaners. They see their lives in these Western counties and they hear what is happening to their homelands. Immigrant families (not any different here) do retain a strong sense of homeland. So what is happening in their homelands and then in their own disenfranchised lives make them easy prey for islamic extremists.


  • #4543
    Jelle1880
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,894 ✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Do you work for ISIS? Because i think your goals are completely aligned. They use violence. You use the internet. All leads to the same place.

    Stop being such a precious little petal.

    Do you seriously think there is nothing that causes the Western world to care more about Western events, just like the Arab world will care more about Arab events ?
    Why are you so desperate to make sure everyone cares in equal measures about everything everywhere ? It has never happened, never will and it doesn't have to either.
    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Anger again. None of these Muslims youths being picked up in Paris, Lyon or Brussels are planning a life of university, good job, wealth etc. They are France's janitors and cleaners. They see their lives in these Western counties and they hear what is happening to their homelands. Immigrant families (not any different here) do retain a strong sense of homeland. So what is happening in their homelands and then in their own disenfranchised lives make them easy prey for islamic extremists.

    One of them had a decent job in Belgium for the government. Yeah, such a disenfranchised youth he was.
    Some of them are just utter bastards as well. The idea that they are all uneducated, poor and discriminated against young people doesn't hold up anymore.


  • #4544
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....is it that though, or the idea of running round with guns, a cause and power over others?

    I have no idea. You hear much hand-wringing about the disaffected (whatever that means) disadvantaged and ghettoised youth in some of these Muslim/Asian areas, particularly in England. As far as I can make out, young Achmed who grew up twelve-to-a-bed without a shilling from one end of the week to the next either ends up in some piss-pot gang in Croydon, or else he gets himself a whelk-stall and works eighteen hours a day until he can afford a Bentley. He doesn't, in general, pick up a rifle and head for Syria. This seems to be largely the preserve of cerebral, university-educated types.


  • #4545
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,300 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    smash wrote: »
    Damn, I was convinced it was King James. Still a late addition though.
    Depends what one regards as "late". It's referenced as early as the 2nd century AD and shows up in the current place by the 4th. It's likely part of the early oral canon that ended up being included in the "official" final one.
    Interesting
    It's the biggest gulf between the two religions as far as the texts go and why the common enough idea that "ah sure Islam is kinda like Christianity" is incorrect, or at least much more nuanced than that.

    From the first collation of the Quran it is set in stone, not a single letter can be moved, only interpreted and its origin story is also immutable. It was written by god through his prophet. End of. In Christianity things are and were different. Though the texts are considered directly inspired by god, they are considered to have been written by men and from very early on origins were picked over. This textual criticism didn't kick off post enlightenment - though it really revved up then - it was there from nigh on the very start(the joke is those US type Christian fundies would have been seen as a bit daft by many early medieval thinkers for believing something like Genesis as historical fact). This is simply not present in Islamic thought. The Hadeeth(life of the prophet) are picked apart alright, but the Quran itself is untouchable in this regard. It would barely occur to a practising Muslim to even consider it.

    This leads to quite a different mindset. It also means the chances of an Islamic reformation are much slimmer(if not absent). It had from the start a very strong built in self preservation mechanism. It also from very early on had a martial empire to back this up and solidify this mechanism. Remember Christianity didn't gain earthly power for centuries after it sprang up, so was playing catch up in this regard. The early Muslims learned from that is seems.

    On this score the two religions also vary enormously. There exists a clear separation of church and state in Christianity. Now of course that has been ignored more than once, not least in our own fair isle, but it was there as a fabric of the faith. "My kingdom is not of this earth" and "give all to Caesar that is Caesars" spell this separation out. This was of course further moulded by Greco-Roman thought and philosophies. Later on after the fall of Rome, the Roman Church operated a de facto Roman empire of faith alongside, but separate to the various kingdoms of Europe. And this wasn't just in stately power. When this new Jewish religion came int Europe other things changed when it butted up against existing philosophies and faiths. Jesus' mother, who is a very minor figure in the texts gets the full on goddess treatment, because that's what the Roman world expected of a religion. It also got saints, because again the Roman world had a whole pantheon of lesser gods and goddesses and that left a vacuum when Christianity took over. It's also why Christians can eat what they want and don't snip the mickeys of their kids(or didn't until the 19th century).

    Islam on the other hand was and is more, much more an entire instruction for living, practically, spiritually and politically, from birth to death. This has shaped middle eastern thought and culture. So democracy sounds like a grand idea but… Further afield in places like Indonesia there exists a much more local flavour to Islam. As indeed exists in long term European Islamic areas like Bosnia and environs. THis hasn't really took off in the ground zero of the Middle East, or when it did it didn't last long.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #4546
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Anger again. None of these Muslims youths being picked up in Paris, Lyon or Brussels are planning a life of university, good job, wealth etc. They are France's janitors and cleaners. They see their lives in these Western counties and they hear what is happening to their homelands. Immigrant families (not any different here) do retain a strong sense of homeland. So what is happening in their homelands and then in their own disenfranchised lives make them easy prey for islamic extremists.

    But it's the extremists in their homelands who are destroying the place. Why do they join them?


  • #4547
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    his all ties into Paris, as Japan is a homogeneous nation doesnt have any of the social problems that come with multiculturalism, its a proven formula
    Of course that very homogeneous nature caused that nation to blindly follow its leaders into a disasterous war. One that nearly destroyed them.

    One can point to similar situations in many countries


  • #4548
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Ah stop with your reactionary crap then. Ireland are in the EU. Until that changes your comment is nothing but bluster. "I care about Ireland" yet you say in another post we have lost our identity. What are you doing to address that as the man of action you are?

    Im a member of Conradh na Gaelige, I speak Irish, other then that I work. There are no political parties that promote Ireland over the EU, if there were I'd join and fund them!
    I recognise Im in the minority, and never claimed to be a man of action, I can however point things out without being required to start a lone protest,as I dont really feel like being spit on and called a fascist by a bunch of open borders leftists as happens everywhere opposition to mass immigration and the EU is voiced.


  • #4549
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    smash wrote: »
    But it's the extremists in their homelands who are destroying the place. Why do they join them?

    I wish I knew. The only crackpot theory I have is that it might be a sort of cultural self-loathing that erupts as a rather dangerous projection involving AK-47s and nitrocellulose. :(


  • #4550
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    smash wrote: »
    But it's the extremists in their homelands who are destroying the place. Why do they join them?

    Very simplistic analysis. The Middle East is riven with sects and rivalries, territorial disputes etc , many as a result of generations of western involvement.

    Into that cauldron , you then place the greatest military power the world has yet seen , but which acts with the intelligence of a 4 year old.

    The resulting chaos , calls out for solutions, charismatic leaders propose and seemingly implement such " solutions " . With that they attract " followers"

    It's being happening for time imorial. To bring it back home, in Ireland the old ira had little problem in attracting recruits to fight the free state government, yet these ordinary people were prepared to bomb, destroy and kill to achieve their goals.

    Why are you surprised when others do the same?


  • #4551
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    Im a member of Conradh na Gaelige, I speak Irish, other then that I work. There are no political parties that promote Ireland over the EU, if there were I'd join and fund them!
    I recognise Im in the minority, and never claimed to be a man of action, I can however point things out without being required to start a lone protest,as I dont really feel like being spit on and called a fascist by a bunch of open borders leftists as happens everywhere opposition to mass immigration and the EU is voiced.

    Oh great. It's Dominic Walsh! :pac:


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  • #4552
    ihatemyfish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭ihatemyfish


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Anger again. None of these Muslims youths being picked up in Paris, Lyon or Brussels are planning a life of university, good job, wealth etc. They are France's janitors and cleaners. They see their lives in these Western counties and they hear what is happening to their homelands. Immigrant families (not any different here) do retain a strong sense of homeland. So what is happening in their homelands and then in their own disenfranchised lives make them easy prey for islamic extremists.

    You're very much mistaken if you think that radicalised Muslims in Europe are uneducated. Ever been to a European university recently? They are hotbeds for this stuff. Look at Jihadi John, studying computer science before he became a Jihadi. The janitors , cabbies and restaurant workers don't have time to be concerning themselves with this nonsense. The children they have worked so hard to provide opportunities for do.


  • #4553
    fed up sick and tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,015 ✭✭✭fed up sick and tired


    BoatMad wrote: »
    As an Irishman , I would disagree , most ferociously with " we are a colonised and broken nation"

    We have tremendous national pride And solidarity, sometimes too much

    You're deluded. 'We' despise even our own language, ffs. The coloniser did his work exceptionally well there.

    'We' have a forelock-tugging, tripping-over-ourselves-to-appear-mature-as-a-nation, creep mentality. Towards the Yanks, towards the Brits. Desperate to be loved as the little guy with the hundred thousand welcomes.

    'Is Feidir Linn' sez Barack, and the muppets lapping it up - but what was Geithner doing ?

    Our 'leaders' do exactly what Angela tells them to do. What Draghi says, what Trichet says.

    Wake up.


  • #4554
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    jimgoose wrote: »
    I wish I knew. The only crackpot theory I have is that it might be a sort of cultural self-loathing that erupts as a rather dangerous projection involving AK-47s and nitrocellulose. :(

    The internet is full of simple explanations as to the rise of Al-queda and subsequently IS , try the series on Al-jazzera for example.

    You have the great schism in Islam , mixed with territorial disputes , regional and great power involvement , corruption,oil.

    Then add a massive military campaign , the resulting chaos.

    You wonder why people get radicalised , seriously. , ??


  • #4555
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Nodin wrote: »
    You're using a thread about a massacre in Paris to whinge about Poles?

    No, read my post, my whinge is about the people who promote this, Im not going to start slagging off individual people who come here, its pointless and misdirected. The issue is government/lobby group policy and goals. You have organisations and political parties fighting for open borders, mass immigration, they are they issue, not the people themselves, the people already here, are here to stay.
    Every study shows less social cohesion and more violence the more "open" it is, the less homogeneous a society, the more chance of a Paris style massacre happening. There is a goal to turn every society in Europe into a miniature France, I think, in light of all available evidence and recent attacks, thats a bad idea. That is all I am saying, Im clearly not having a crack at any foreigner living in Ireland, but you knew that didnt you.


  • #4556
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Oh great. It's Dominic Walsh! :pac:

    You're going to have to aware me on who that is.


  • #4557
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    BoatMad wrote: »
    ...You wonder why people get radicalised , seriously. , ??

    Yes. Seriously. Is that allowed?? :confused:


  • #4558
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    BoatMad wrote: »
    To bring it back home, in Ireland the old ira had little problem in attracting recruits to fight the free state government, yet these ordinary people were prepared to bomb, destroy and kill to achieve their goals.

    Why are you surprised when others do the same?

    I don't recall any IRA member who was willing to blow themselves up in the hopes they would kill innocent people.


  • #4559
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    You're going to have to aware me on who that is.



  • #4560
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    jimgoose wrote: »

    LOL, I cant comment on the veracity of his parody as I dont venture outside of the M50 unless Im on a plane ;) But seriously, the fact that there are 30/40 "Irish" people fighting in Syria for Isis shows open borders has failed.


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  • #4561
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,205 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    LOL, I cant comment on the veracity of his parody as I dont venture outside of the M50 unless Im on a plane ;)

    You should try it sometime! Don't be afeared, we are a peaceful tribe of pigmeat-chomping simpletons, and mean no harm! :D


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