Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

Peist2007 wrote: »

Your argument falls down when you see the tributes given to Paris at all major gatherings of people worldwide since Friday. Unless you dont think Seattle is on the other side of the world to France? Dont remember any Lebanese flags in Century Link Field yesterday afternoon.

Western world vs Arab world.

Simple.

Peist2007 wrote: »

Your argument falls down when you see the tributes given to Paris at all major gatherings of people worldwide since Friday. Unless you dont think Seattle is on the other side of the world to France? Dont remember any Lebanese flags in Century Link Field yesterday afternoon.

We all know american and french people, we visit america and france. There are few lebanese or syrian immigrants here.Syria and Lebanon arent exactly common holiday destinations. Theres many reasons why an attack in Paris or Seattle hits harder than one in Lebanon and to put it down to racism is simply BS. France doesn't collect ethnic statistics but if London is anything to compare it to, and paris is as diverse as it looks on the surface then the city would be roughly 50% nonwhite which renders any racism theory fairly weak.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

In a European context there was a point when Fundamentalist Christianity held sway and anything or anyone that did not conform was ruthlessly destroyed - at the same time much of the knowledge that was under threat was being preserved by the Caliphate of Cordoba. This is a historical fact which I raised when some people wanted to claim that Islam has always been a murderous, bloodthirsty religion that seeks to destroy Europe.

I just heard a security analyst (didn't catch his name) on Radio One make the same points I did about extremism and the need to win the battle against it. My concern is that their is a dangerous Right Wing element using this crisis to try and destroy Liberal Democratic Europe as surely as ISIS are. I don't care what the insignia on the black shirt that reigns by terror is - I care that we stop all of them.

Why have second generation Muslims turned to extremism - we need to find the answer to that question if we are going to stop it happening. Violence will not stop it - it will feed it.

This is not the same kind of threat as the Nazis so comparisons are not really accurate.

It is liberalism they are trying to defeat. Can you not see that?

All cultures have generated internal schisms and then warred with each other . So let's leave that as a given.

The second things is Europe and France and the U.K. In particular should not at all be surprised they are being targeted. That targeting will continue.

The particular historical phase that lead to the rise of jihadism, can be directly laid at the Russians and Americans, both fighting proxy wars. The taliban and AL Qaeda as a result of the Russian invasion and Isis which grew out of the chaos that was Iraq after the US/ west invaded. The us made monumental errors after the initial invasion that directly fed to the creation of Isis.


Nevertheless , to use that hackneyed phrase , " we are where we are " . If we wish to control Islamic extremism , we will have to introduce controls and govern these areas ourselves. That means boots on the ground for decades. It means establishing long term governance that stand the test of time and it's means waging a merciless war on the ground to subdue these extremists. Note I sue subdue , they will not be eliminated.

In essence we will have to re introduce colonislism.

What we can't do is " dabble " , a few F 15s here a few " special forces " there. " We " have contributed greatly to this mess and now we have to see it through to the bitter end. You cannot start a boxing match and announce half way through you'd prefer to go home , someone has to be knocked out to finish the fight.

The morality of all this is highly questionable , but totally irrelevant , because it is not part of the solution.

Nor is attempting a fortress Europe approach going to work either. Like the monks running to the round tower didn't save them either.

Nor we must act , for to not do so is to face defeat ourselves. To not act is to allow the creation of a vast area of the Middle East that will be hostile to the west.

Yes we started it, but now we have to finish it

Note that questions about disaffected European Muslims are now irelevsnt , it's too late to do much about that except adopt aggressive security measures. Internment , ghettoisation, etc will all feature in coming years.

You cannot integrate people that don't want to be integrated. The history of europe tells us that starkly.

In all this innocents will suffer greatly, but then they always do

How did this guy get turned into such an evil bastard?

Paris attacks: First picture of baby-faced suicide bomber Bilal Hadfi who blew himself up at football stadium

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBn4dqK?a=1&m=EN-GB

kleefarr wrote: »

How did this guy get turned into such an evil bastard?

Paris attacks: First picture of baby-faced suicide bomber Bilal Hadfi who blew himself up at football stadium

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBn4dqK?a=1&m=EN-GB

God only 20 and causing so much damage to the world...

Peist2007 wrote: »

The horse has bolted so. And long ago.

Not for Ireland, or Eastern europe, It just requires national will, I dont think we have it. We are a colonised and broken nation with zero national pride or solidarity, but its the right option. We have a small non eu population, we should keep it that way, I think judging by my fb and the media and the political climate, the open borders crowd have won the day though, Ireland as a nation of, and for, Irish people isnt a popular sentiment.

kleefarr wrote: »

How did this guy get turned into such an evil bastard?

Paris attacks: First picture of baby-faced suicide bomber Bilal Hadfi who blew himself up at football stadium

http://a.msn.com/r/2/BBn4dqK?a=1&m=EN-GB

He was 'radicalised' apparently.

I really despise the word 'radicalised'. It is supposed to be the process of how a normal person becomes a homicidal psychopath intent on killing as many as possible before dying themselves. It fails completely to convey that.

Peist2007 wrote: »

So in order to explicitly discriminate against an entire mass of people based on their religion, you are going to override one of the pillars of European democracy (free movement of people) and prevent Muslims entering countries purely based on their religion and irrespective of whether they have family etc already in those countries. Human rights, family rights, free movement of persons etc all destroyed because someone might bomb us?

If you cannot see that the above, and the resultant divide it will create between Muslims and the West, is not the entire plan of groups like ISIS then you have spent a lot of time in here and not picked much up.

I dont care about "European democracy", I care about Ireland. Ireland as a nation should be set up to serve Irish people, that means border restrictions. restrictions on religion, demographics etc, like Japan has.
The divide between East and west has existed for over a thousand years, ISIS didnt create it, Turkey used to be part of the West, North Africa also, Islam conquered them and expelled European people and culture.
Ireland reasserting its national sovereignty will not create a divide that doesnt already exist. We are Irish first and foremost, preserving and promoting that should be our concern, let the ME burn for all it will effect us, its an age old conflict that we have no part in.

smash wrote: »

Why bother thinking about why? By calling him baby faced it implies that he was young or naive or innocent on some way. The guy was a psycho and that's all that matters.

He was a psycho implies that he was just mentally ill though, almost happenstance. With all of these guys there is a common thread of indoctrination to an ideology after which doing these things becomes rational to them. When people say its nothing to do with islam they are ignoring this process of indoctrination which unfortunately happens within muslim communities. I'm very interested to find out if family members (assuming they were in contact with them) had any idea of their brother/cousins/sons hardening views. Little things here and there. Equally it could have been hidden from everyone.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Not for Ireland, or Eastern europe, It just requires national will, I dont think we have it. We are a colonised and broken nation with zero national pride or solidarity, but its the right option. We have a small non eu population, we should keep it that way, I think judging by my fb and the media and the political climate, the open borders crowd have won the day though, Ireland as a nation of, and for, Irish people isnt a popular sentiment.

As an Irishman , I would disagree , most ferociously with " we are a colonised and broken nation"

We have tremendous national pride And solidarity, sometimes too much

Also we have to define what you mean Irish for an Irish nation , Dev tried that , look where it got us, priest ridden , backward facing and economically broke.

Small countries have to face outwards not inwards.

smash wrote: »

...The guy was a psycho and that's all that matters.

I'd say psychopathy per sé is about the last thing we're looking at here. These characters care deeply about something.