Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

That was very strange

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

As I was waiting for your reply I got the feeling that we were de-railing a thread on gun control until I re-read the title

Me too... thought I had accidentally wandering into the wrong room as it were and I should back out slowly making no sudden moves...

There may well be hysteria out there, its plainly obvious that certain sections of the media not only thrive off of hysteria but like to fan it up as well, however none of these can manufacture complaints out of thin air and so long as it continues the real driving force behind any hysteria is going to be the experience of Islamist terror attacks as they strike, be that the London Tube Bombings or the Paris attacks.

I agree. There are a lot of spoon stirring this s*it and some damn irresponsible excuses for journalism (on all sides of the political spectrum) isn't helping.
Absolutely there are grounds for caution and increased security, but what concerns me is the glee with which some elements seek to fan the flames for their own agenda. I cannot help but think there are those out there - mainly on the Right - who welcome each new atrocity so they can scream 'Told Ya So!' and use the tragedy to impose their own brand of political extremism.

Rhetorical damage control, things such as 'most Muslims don't support these acts' or 'Islam as a religion of peace' are platitudes which don't actually involve tackling the root issue, and I think make the rather generous assumption that people acting out on group hate in racist attacks actually watch these complex debates on the issue and get swayed by such words. It is actions that will speak, and for all this talk of making sure we don't succumb to Islamophobia, we have yet to see Muslim communities in Europe face the kind of attacks that we just saw in Paris.

From my perspective Islam is as much about peace as Christianity is about love. Nice words and all but...
My fear is that we will see Muslim communities attacked (there have been isolated attacks on 'Muslim looking' individuals as a Sikh friend of mine learned to his cost) as at that point the conflict moves towards potential civil war on our streets or modern day pogroms and this plays into ISIS's hands - sadly, I think the more the hate narrative gains traction and acceptability the closer we get to this possibility.
Having lived in the UK during the height of the 'Irish Republican' bombing campaign of the 80s I well remember the feelings of shame after Warrington, Omagh and how it felt to be Irish with the possibility that out of the blue with no warning someone would take 'offence' - actualy happened me in a pub in South Shields - guy whose mate was killed in NI had a few pints under his belt and decided to seek revenge on the 'Paddy'.
Or sitting on a train in mid-bomb scare to have my English friend joke with their teeth clenched that I wasn't to say a word.
This are minor incidents but they eat at a persons sense of security and acceptance - and that is what Muslims are experiencing across the West now. It creates this sense of victimhood and reinforces feelings of disconnection from the society you live in.

Better is a relative term, we might hold ourselves to a higher moral standard than ISIS (given some of the videos they produce just about everyone does), but we still bleed like ISIS when we are wounded and we still die like them when we are attacked. This talk of simply 'out-loving' ISIS by being more open and more tolerant than before, by taking in more refugees and sending more aid and doing just about everything we can to make ourselves feel so smug and progressive, seems to be missing the point; ISIS is not a threat because we've been Oh So Naughty, it is a threat because it purports to establish a worldwide Caliphate with the Sharia as its law and fundamentalist Islam as its mantra. Now if we don't challenge that core idea, by combating the idea that an Islamist Theocracy is somewhere ANYONE would want to live, that fundamentalist Islam is an untouchable 'one true faith' and that ISIS or any variant of Islamic terrorism is 'all out fault' (don't mistake this for me suggesting we have had no role in the matter) then all we are doing is window dressing and simply hoping that the fanatics will get bored and go home. This I would venture, is naive at best, self destructive at worst.

If we are not better than them then what are we trying to preserve?

Absolutely we need to combat the idea that an Islamic Caliphate such as you describe is in anyway shape of form desirable - but it's hard for Western governments to do so when we sell arms to an Islamic absolute monarchy that is fundamentalist and shown to be a source of funds for ISIS. We are engaging in political window dressing because we are trading with them whether it is via links with the Saudi's or purchasing looted art works on the black market.
If we were really serious we would stop the trade. Starve them of funds. Cut off their access to publicity.

We cannot combat this ISIS propagated illusion that IS would be some Muslim paradise where Allah will reward the faithful by disenfranchising moderate Muslims - we need to get them on side and work with them.
I do think the moderates need to do more within the Muslim community to make it clear that extremism isn't acceptable...

Well I'm not sure where you're finding these people with their placid reverence for the Catholic Church because that has certainly not been my experience of people in Ireland. Nevertheless, you cannot fault people for looking out at the rest of Europe, pretty close places with the advent of modern communications and transportation, seeing atrocities like the one in Paris and feeling disgusted by the perpetrators and their ideology and worried that the same thing might happen to them. I suspect the experience of the UK, France et al with mass immigration has also soured them somewhat on the idea of Muslim migrants of any variety.

As a lesbian atheist I can assure you there are plenty of Irish Catholics out there ready and willing to judge people according to the doctrines of the RCC - met many of them while campaigning for SSM.
There are even a few posting here.

And wait until the Repeal the 8th Campaign gets going... the rosary beads will be out in force across the country.

Putting aside the rather complex question of what those civil liberties constitute exactly and how they have changed over recent years, I suspect the reason for much anger at what one has dubbed the 'Regressive' Left, has been peddling stories of victim-hood to communities of European Muslims in the aftermath of these attacks, the deferential treatment of Islamist fundamentalists (of the stone women and gays variety) on campuses and in the media as being the only kind of 'authentic Muslim' (see the recent Guardian piece on Abdul Wahid for example) and the comparative scolding of more Liberal progressive Muslims (again see the recent Guardian piece on Maajid Nawaz) and the comparative obsession with Israel does not help. It's the construction of these new victim-hoods narratives in response to peoples genuine concerns about terrorist attacks and the future of their country, which tend to drive people up the wall and I would venture, into the arms of the far right, which naturally enough do not need to trouble themselves with such rhetoric.

In my experience those who spout the the regressive left rhetoric you describe are as socialist as Bertie Ahern - it is a trendy, smug, academic group speak favoured by the likes of Ivana Bacik and Linda Bellos - they have co-opted feminism as well and personally, they give me the gip but they do not worry me like the rhetoric of the Right because, lets be honest, we have seen what the Right is capable of when they get their way. The Regressive Lefties are all irritating talk and forms and tut tuting and lip service but essentially toothless.

fly_agaric wrote: »

I don't know. They don't believe they've killed everyone involved in this (and there must have been quite a few). I wonder, would there have been another support/logistics person for each trigger-man too?

Anyway, the police/spy people will be trying to run them all down/trace their back-trail right now. They know that, so if they have any weapons etc left they will probably try and do something else while they are still free [think something similar happened with last attack in France].

There are probably thousands of those farkers all over Europe now.

kleefarr wrote: »

And if we went to their counties and tried the same thing we would get beheaded.

Ummm... we did go to their countries...

Carlee Tart Wedding wrote: »

You're a joke

I'm not laughing.

stefanovich wrote: »

Yes. We're Kafir.

Nawh mate. I'm a Gael.

R P McMurphy wrote: »

There is absolutely no chance of Serbia being used as a base by ISIS. Chances are that anyone travelling through will be doing so as quickly as possible

Balkan countries like Bosnia ,Serbia, Macedonia are targets for ISIS. They want to expand into eastern European countries and establish themselves there. There is a real danger of small groups of ISIS supporters who have traveled as immigrants festering there in coming years. Needs monitoring before it happens.

Seems to be a lot of police sirens in the background of the live news feeds