Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

Billy86 · 14-11-2015 11:55PM

Orangebrigade wrote: »

They should all go, useless idiots. Merkel is a disgrace. Hollande overseeing Charlie Hebdo and last night is just not good enough and it is failing to defend his citizens. Rule number 1 of any leader.

Yep, force all of Europe's leaders to simultaneously step down. That'll show ISIS, bet they'd feel right fools if that were to ever happen!

timmyntc · 14-11-2015 11:55PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Katie fucking Hopkins is 'great' now? Western civilisation is in decline alright.

When the alternative is Middle-Eastern civilisation, I think we're doing quite well for ourselves.

Richard Hillman · 14-11-2015 11:56PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

I am struggling to get the bigger picture here. I think it's always important to ask the 5 Whys. The 5th Why more often than not identifies root cause.
Can someone, ideally someone balanced, knowledgeable and intelligent, please give fill in the answers to the 5 Whys;

Q1 Why did several people murder many French people in Paris last night and subsequently commit suicide?
A. ???
Q2. Why above?
A. ???
Q3. Why above?
A. ???
Q4. Why above?
A. ???
Q5. Why above?
A. ???

Thanks in advance.

1. For the "glory"
2. To get noticed
3. These guys are the no marks of society.
4. They have no marriage prospects. In these cultures, if you are not married by 25 you are done for. Everybody sees you as a failure, especially your family.

Instead of sitting around being a "failure", they see a sense of glamour in fighting a holy war. They might even find a wide out of it.

I remember watching a programme about I.S and they were talking about women and wives. It was a bunch of young males (20+) in the room. They came across as a bunch of giddy 12 year olds from an all boys school. It was clear that they have had very little contact with women.

When you look at most of these guys that are in I.S, very few of them have wives and families. It is just young horny males on a crusade

Junkyard Tom · 14-11-2015 11:59PM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

IQ1 Why did several people murder many French people in Paris last night and subsequently commit suicide?

Guided by a death-cult that 'rewards' them for their degeneracy in the after-life they seek to illicit an anti-Muslim response and many among us have become their willing useful idiots and are acting precisely as they would have liked.

Deep Six · 15-11-2015 12:00AM

Retaliation should be swift and absolutely merciless. For a start, level that ****hole Raqqa and everyone in it to the ground. It's an IS stronghold so the world won't shed any tears over the subhuman filth in it being incinerated.

Next step then is to start targeting the IS sympathisers in our countries. Find them and execute them, no legal process or red tape just a bullet in the face. If they want war give it to them, and make sure every single IS cretin from man to woman to child is eradicated.

KKkitty · 15-11-2015 12:02AM

Why don't they get together and whilst strapped with bombs just blow themselves to pieces.

GT_TDI_150 · 15-11-2015 12:04AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I don't know about that, it's done quite regularly in parts of africa with child soldiers. They DO turn kids into killers, but i wouldnt say they were already little c*nts. Similarly we know of whole nations who were turned into sadistic killers by brainwashing at a state level (Cambodia and PolPot etc). Religion sure does lubricate the machine though.

Cambodia ... cant comment as I havent enough inside on it but I would assume that the fear of not being part of it is greater than the fear of what is required to be part

Supposedly those child soldiers have experienced extreme violent situations(witnessing rapes, murders, genocides,...) and are softened up with drugs

In this case we are talking about adults ( granted young ones but adults all the same) making the descision to travel to places like Syria to join the cause ... I've not heard of one case of a person that travelled yet that had no choice ...

gormdubhgorm · 15-11-2015 12:04AM

Fuhrer wrote: »

Yeah, the point was that Islamic Terrorists don't differentiate between Irish, English, French etc. Being Irish is meaningless when the ones with murderous intentions want everyone dead.

Yeah but the reality is Ireland does not have much of a Muslim community. France has atagonised muslims to various degrees. Giving fuel to the extremusts.Also Ireland does not set out to piss off Muslims.

Pretzill · 15-11-2015 12:06AM

It's easy to play into the minds of the 'outraged keyboard warriors'. It's easy to pin this on race, religion, difference etc, etc. It's easy to spout dialogue that should belong in the dark ages.

There is too much air given to what people (mainly in Ireland here on an Irish discussion board) think they believe is a solution to this, or who is to blame, or become apologists.

When the community that rears terrorists stands up and says we won't take this anymore and go in and actually do something that's where there may be a change.

Truth is I don't know how this sort of slaughter can be prevented in the future but if I was in a position to do something about it - I'd try. If that means shutting borders, checking everyone entering with a fine tooth comb so be it. Europe has been attacked and it only take one person out of thousands to cause absolute chaos.

Junkyard Tom · 15-11-2015 12:06AM

Deep Six wrote: »

Next step then is to start targeting the IS sympathisers in our countries. Find them and execute them, no legal process or red tape just a bullet in the face.

Brilliant idea. Give them martyrs. The Islamists would love nothing more.

IrishTrajan · 15-11-2015 12:08AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but the reality is Ireland does not have much of a Muslim community. France has atagonised muslims to various degrees. Giving fuel to the extremusts.Also Ireland does not set out to piss off Muslims.

Sweden doesn't antagonize the Muslims living there, what's the deal with them throwing grenades at each other and setting off bombs in cities and attacking native Swedes who come into their areas?

Custardpi · 15-11-2015 12:08AM

Deep Six wrote: »

Retaliation should be swift and absolutely merciless. For a start, level that ****hole Raqqa and everyone in it to the ground. It's an IS stronghold so the world won't shed any tears over the subhuman filth in it being incinerated.

Next step then is to start targeting the IS sympathisers in our countries. Find them and execute them, no legal process or red tape just a bullet in the face. If they want war give it to them, and make sure every single IS cretin from man to woman to child is eradicated.

While I've no problem with a robust response to these attacks the above is going too far. Advocating the killing of children makes you as bad as IS. Not everyone is Raqqa is a fanatical IS supporter. What about the group "Raqqa Is Being Slaughtered Silently" whose members have risked & often lost their lives to smuggle out information about the régime? Should their bravery be repaid by indiscriminate bombing? Tough measures & decisions will no doubt have to be taken but even so there are lines which it will do us no good whatsoever to cross. Gung ho nonsense like the above will ultimately damage the very democracy IS is opposed to.

Baggy Trousers · 15-11-2015 12:09AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

1. For the "glory"
2. To get noticed
3. These guys are the no marks of society.
4. They have no marriage prospects.

Sorry but that's not how the 5 Whys work. You have to work every answer into the next question.

I am struggling to get the bigger picture here. I think it's always important to ask the 5 Whys. The 5th Why more often than not identifies root cause.
Can someone, ideally someone balanced, knowledgeable and intelligent, please give fill in the answers to the 5 Whys;

Q1 Why did several people murder many French people in Paris last night and subsequently commit suicide?
A. ???
Q2. Why above?
A. ???
Q3. Why above?
A. ???
Q4. Why above?
A. ???
Q5. Why above?
A. ???

For example;
Q1 Why did several people murder many French people in Paris last night and subsequently commit suicide? (this is an example!!!)
A. Because they hate French people.(this is an example answer!!!)
Q2. Why do they hate French people? (this is an example Q!!!)
A. Because France backed the Syrian dictator who they also hate (this is an example answer !!)
Q3. Why do they hate the Syrian leader? (this is an example Q!!!)
A. Because he murdered their people. (this is an example!!!)
Q4. Why did he murder their people (this is an example Q!!!)
A. Because they were a different sect within Islam (this is an example!!!)
Q5. etc
A. <<<Root Cause.>>>

My example might be completely the wrong track but I want some informed poster to give their 5 Whys. There may be several tracks here (e.g. Iraq, Algeria, Syria, Fundamentalism, Religion, etc). Important to deep dive all of them.

threeball · 15-11-2015 12:09AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but the reality is Ireland does not have much of a Muslim community. France has atagonised muslims to various degrees. Giving fuel to the extremusts.Also Ireland does not set out to piss off Muslims.

Thats really naive. We already have muslims leaving ireland to travel to syria and iraq. Isis do not differentiate between any countries at all. If you or not muslim and in particular sunni muslim then you are a legitimate target. Neutrality and being the fun paddies won't help us here

Bannasidhe · 15-11-2015 12:10AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Yeah, I'm paid in the tears of the children you try to guilt trip me with.

No, we arrest those related to it and leave them in the deepest, darkest hole we can find.

You seem to think I hate all Muslims, I don't. I just care more about my fellow citizens than your fragile sensibilities and your moronic philanthropic ideals. I've actively encouraged my Syrian and Turkish friends to move to Ireland once they have a degree in an industry we need, because they want to live in the West, and these people are secular.

But, yeah, if you need me to say I hate all Muslims so you can pat yourself on the back for "sticking it to the fascists", here: I hate all Muslims.

Enjoy yourself

There really is no need for the level of aggression towards me in that post - 'Moronic' indeed.

Goodnight to you. I prefer to have civilized discussions with people who don't feel the need to personally insult anyone who disagrees with them or asks that that you expand on your suggestions.

darkpagandeath · 15-11-2015 12:11AM

threeball wrote: »

Thats really naive. We already have muslims leaving ireland to travel to syria and iraq. Isis do not differentiate between any countries at all. If you or not muslim and in particular sunni muslim then you are a legitimate target. Neutrality and being the fun paddies won't help us here

Also have a MB supporter banged up abroad.

threeball · 15-11-2015 12:16AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Also have a MB supporter banged up abroad.

And I'm glad we're doing fcuk all for him. He should have stayed at home. If you go out to get involved in that crap you deserve whatever you get. Sick of hearing his sisters whinging on the news every 5 mins about our government not doing enough like they should wipe the arse of every sh1tstirrer with a passport.

IrishTrajan · 15-11-2015 12:16AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There really is no need for the level of aggression towards me in that post - 'Moronic' indeed.

Goodnight to you. I prefer to have civilized discussions with people who don't feel the need to personally insult anyone who disagrees with them or asks that that you expand on your suggestions.

I didn't call you moronic, I said the notion in your head is, and that is demonstrably so. Every person who has advocated for us to take in migrants, despite it being in contradiction with our own laws, and then trying to paint the people who oppose such measures as mindless, heartless xenophobes has this high minded, unworkable notion that we shouldn't do anything to restrict this flow of migrants because it's "sectarian" or it's "what the terrorists want".

You've tried painting me as a sectarianist on more than one occasion, so don't sit there and try to "u mad bro?" like someone from 9Gag in 2009.

Deep Six · 15-11-2015 12:17AM

Custardpi wrote: »

While I've no problem with a robust response to these attacks the above is going too far. Advocating the killing of children makes you as bad as IS. Not everyone is Raqqa is a fanatical IS supporter. What about the group "Raqqa Is Being Slaughtered Silently" whose members have risked & often lost their lives to smuggle out information about the régime? Should their bravery be repaid by indiscriminate bombing? Tough measures & decisions will no doubt have to be taken but even so there are lines which it will do us no good whatsoever to cross. Gung ho nonsense like the above will ultimately damage the very democracy IS is opposed to.

The lines are gone after last night imo, if they want to carry out such acts then I really don't see any problem in killing as many of them as possible. This is no longer about being civilised in the face of barbarians, it's now an exercise in eliminating every single one of them.

Custardpi · 15-11-2015 12:17AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Also have a MB supporter banged up abroad.

You mean of course the GAA loving bodhrán player on his holiers who innocently left his hotel to buy an ice cream cone & got caught up in some protests of which he was completely unaware.

threeball · 15-11-2015 12:24AM

Deep Six wrote: »

The lines are gone after last night imo, if they want to carry out such acts then I really don't see any problem in killing as many of them as possible. This is no longer about being civilised in the face of barbarians, it's now an exercise in eliminating every single one of them.

Killing children solves nothing and creates countless other problems. Indiscriminate bombing solves nothing.

Gbear · 15-11-2015 12:25AM

Is there a cut off point for the proportion of the migrants coming in that are terrorists that people will accept?
Like if it was just these lads but that's it and all the rest are reasonable enough is that tolerable for people?

Saying "he had a Syrian passport, therefore hosting the Syrian refugees is dangerous" isn't a complete argument.
For terrorism to be a legitimate reason to not accept Syrian or other Arabic/North African refugees you'd presumably have to have some notion of how big a risk they actually pose in general, and it being an issue that goes beyond this specific attack.
It doesn't matter how big a risk that is for you to argue that it's too big - you just have to have some sort of notion about it. Otherwise you're just pulling numbers out of your arse.

I suspect what's really happening is that most posters didn't fancy them coming over in the first place and this is just a poorly thought out attempt at further justifying that. And they don't even need to. While you may agree or disagree with shunning the refugees, one doesn't need to be a racist or even particularly unreasonable to argue in favour of it.

I wouldn't even necessarily disagree that it's tough to fit in a million refugees over the next few years, even just among 300m people of the relatively wealthy Western European countries (and leaving Eastern Europe alone for another while).
You could have a reasonable debate about whether we can manage that.

And you could argue the issues with integrating people who are often relatively illiterate, unskilled, and almost all from a far less developed culture with incompatible values being a stumbling block.

But none of that is directly related to this tragedy. Not unless we have a solid basis in believing that this mass immigration will actually lead to a significant increase in terrorism.
If you're arguing that any risk is too much, than you don't understand what risk is.

threeball · 15-11-2015 12:28AM

Gbear wrote: »

Is there a cut off point for the proportion of the migrants coming in that are terrorists that people will accept?
Like if it was just these lads but that's it and all the rest are reasonable enough is that tolerable for people?

Saying "he had a Syrian passport, therefore hosting the Syrian refugees is dangerous" isn't a complete argument.
For terrorism to be a legitimate reason to not accept Syrian or other Arabic/North African refugees you'd presumably have to have some notion of how big a risk they actually pose in general, and it being an issue that goes beyond this specific attack.
It doesn't matter how big a risk that is for you to argue that it's too big - you just have to have some sort of notion about it. Otherwise you're just pulling numbers out of your arse.

I suspect what's really happening is that most posters didn't fancy them coming over in the first place and this is just a poorly thought out attempt at further justifying that. And they don't even need to. While you may agree or disagree with shunning the refugees, one doesn't need to be a racist or even particularly unreasonable to argue in favour of it.

I wouldn't even necessarily disagree that it's tough to fit in a million refugees over the next few years, even just among 300m people of the relatively wealthy Western European countries (and leaving Eastern Europe alone for another while).
You could have a reasonable debate about whether we can manage that.

And you could argue the issues with integrating people who are often relatively illiterate, unskilled, and almost all from a far less developed culture with incompatible values being a stumbling block.

But none of that is directly related to this tragedy. Not unless we have a solid basis in believing that this mass immigration will actually lead to a significant increase in terrorism.
If you're arguing that any risk is too much, than you don't understand what risk is.

Just wait two years, then you'll see what the risk was and if it was worth it.

Deep Six · 15-11-2015 12:30AM

threeball wrote: »

Killing children solves nothing and creates countless other problems. Indiscriminate bombing solves nothing.

They both solve problems. Kill everything and there will be no next generation of IS scum to grow up and carry on this type of act. Carpet bombing will ensure mass casualties and in terms of IS, even 100000 deaths aren't enough.

Fleawuss · 15-11-2015 12:31AM

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Sorry but that's not how the 5 Whys work. You have to work every answer into the next question.

I am struggling to get the bigger picture here. I think it's always important to ask the 5 Whys. The 5th Why more often than not identifies root cause.
Can someone, ideally someone balanced, knowledgeable and intelligent, please give fill in the answers to the 5 Whys;

Q1 Why did several people murder many French people in Paris last night and subsequently commit suicide?
A. ???
Q2. Why above?
A. ???
Q3. Why above?
A. ???
Q4. Why above?
A. ???
Q5. Why above?
A. ???

For example;
Q1 Why did several people murder many French people in Paris last night and subsequently commit suicide? (this is an example!!!)
A. Because they hate French people.(this is an example answer!!!)
Q2. Why do they hate French people? (this is an example Q!!!)
A. Because France backed the Syrian dictator who they also hate (this is an example answer !!)
Q3. Why do they hate the Syrian leader? (this is an example Q!!!)
A. Because he murdered their people. (this is an example!!!)
Q4. Why did he murder their people (this is an example Q!!!)
A. Because they were a different sect within Islam (this is an example!!!)
Q5. etc
A. <<<Root Cause.>>>

My example might be completely the wrong track but I want some informed poster to give their 5 Whys. There may be several tracks here (e.g. Iraq, Algeria, Syria, Fundamentalism, Religion, etc). Important to deep dive all of them.

Read their own answers. I see no reason to believe they are lying. I posted their statement earlier.

nullzero · 15-11-2015 12:34AM

Deep Six wrote: »

Kill everything and there will be no next generation of IS scum to grow up and carry on this type of act.

What a heart warming sentiment.
Obviously IS has to be dealt with but talk about reactionary nonsense. IS radicalise children which is horrific but killing those children isn't a valid response either.

Deep Six · 15-11-2015 12:36AM

nullzero wrote: »

What a heart warming sentiment.
Obviously IS has to be dealt with but talk about reactionary nonsense. IS radicalise children which is horrific but killing those children isn't a valid response either.

Radicalised is radicalised, doesn't matter if they are men, women or children. You either set out to destroy every part of a cancer or you are just wasting your time.

kleefarr · 15-11-2015 12:37AM

Posted by Isobel Bowdery on facebook...

you never think it will happen to you. It was just a friday night at a rock show. the atmosphere was so happy and everyone was dancing and smiling. and then when the men came through the front entrance and began the shooting, we naiively believed it was all part of the show. It wasn't just a terrorist attack, it was a massacre. Dozens of people were shot right infront of me. Pools of blood filled the floor. Cries of grown men who held their girlfriends dead bodies pierced the small music venue. Futures demolished, families heartbroken. in an instant. Shocked and alone, I pretended to be dead for over an hour, lying among people who could see their loved ones motionless.. Holding my breath, trying to not move, not cry - not giving those men the fear they longed to see. I was incredibly lucky to survive. But so many didn't. The people who had been there for the exact same reasons as I - to have a fun friday night were innocent. This world is cruel. And acts like this are suppose to highlight the depravity of humans and the images of those men circuling us like vultures will haunt me for the rest of my life. The way they meticoulsy aimed at shot people around the standing area i was in the centre of without any consideration for human life. It didn't feel real. i expected any moment for someone to say it was just a nightmare. But being a survivor of this horror lets me able to shed light on the heroes. To the man who reassured me and put his life on line to try and cover my brain whilst i whimpered, to the couple whose last words of love kept me believing the good in the world, to the police who succeded in rescuing hundreds of people, to the complete strangers who picked me up from the road and consoled me during the 45 minutes I truly believed the boy i loved was dead, to the injured man who i had mistaken for him and then on my recognition that he was not Amaury, held me and told me everything was going to be fine despite being all alone and scared himself, to the woman who opened her doors to the survivors, to the friend who offered me shelter and went out to buy new clothes so i wouldnt have to wear this blood stained top, to all of you who have sent caring messages of support - you make me believe this world has the potential to be better. to never let this happen again. but most of this is to the 80 people who were murdered inside that venue, who weren't as lucky, who didnt get to wake up today and to all the pain that their friends and families are going through. I am so sorry. There's nothing that will fix the pain. I feel priviledged to be there for their last breaths. And truly beliving that I would join them, I promise that their last thoughts were not on the animals who caused all this. It was thinking of the people they loved. As i lay down in the blood of strangers and waiting for my bullet to end my mere 22 years, I envisioned every face that I have ever loved and whispered I love you. over and over again. reflecting on the highlights of my life. Wishing that those i love knew just how much, wishing that they knew that no matter what happened to me, to keep belieivng in the good in people. to not let those men win. Last night, the lives of many were forever changed and it is up to us to be better people. to live lives that the innocent victims of this tragedy dreamt about but sadly will now never be able to fulfil. RIP angels. You will never be forgotten.

There is a photo of a top with blood on it. Must have been awful.

tigger123 · 15-11-2015 12:38AM

Deep Six wrote: »

Radicalised is radicalised, doesn't matter if they are children or not. You either set out to destroy every part of a cancer or you are just wasting your time.

So, just murder everyone in Syria/Iraq/Islamic State?

nullzero · 15-11-2015 12:38AM

threeball wrote: »

And I'm glad we're doing fcuk all for him. He should have stayed at home. If you go out to get involved in that crap you deserve whatever you get. Sick of hearing his sisters whinging on the news every 5 mins about our government not doing enough like they should wipe the arse of every sh1tstirrer with a passport.

It's not nice to know one of our citizens is facing death in such a circumstance, but he wasn't identifying as Irish when he left Ireland to get involved in the politics of another country. There's a bit of having your cake and eating it in that situation. Silly young fella but should have had the cop on to know what he was getting himself in for.

Shootings in Paris - MOD NOTE UPDATED - READ OP

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