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Mary says YES!

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Children are taught to believe that God, Jesus, Mary etc are or were real

    They are taught to believe that an angel came and told Mary that she was going to give birth to a child and even though Mary was doubtful about it, God wanted her to co-operate and was pleased with her.

    The artist/author thought it was a good idea to show Mary as a young girl/child sitting on her bed in the night time.

    If Mary had been shown (as is usual) as a young woman of marriageable age, in her house in the day time we would not be having this discussion. The authors of the book chose to represent Mary as more or less a child, in what should e a safe environment, being visited and coerced in the night. It was a really stupid idea, and you can accept it was a stupid idea without compromising your religious beliefs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Never knew there was creationists on boards, there's all sorts but that's a new one for me.
    Absolam wrote: »
    So to be clear; contrary to the proposition put forward this particular paedophile didn't masquerade as a supernatural entity in order to lure a child into another paedophiles grasp?
    Just (for the really ****ing thick) checking that just because the word 'angel' appears in both doesn't mean that the Grow In Love story about the Immaculate Conception actually facilitated this guy. That's not actually the suggestion being put forward,is it?

    Ah, you must be looking at a different part of the grow in love curriculum. We're talking about when Mary got pregnant here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    When you say 'OP' do you mean the opening post content or the content of the article it is referring to?
    I mean the opening post which includes the article it refers to :)
    You may think, in fairness, that Kiwi is not referring to the idea that the lesson teaches children to say yes to sexual predators even if they are afraid and confused when she calls it ridiculous, inappropriate, and slightly shocking. I suppose she could be referring to the notion that religion is taught as fact, but I don't get that impression from her subsequent posts?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    If Mary had been shown (as is usual) as a young woman of marriageable age, in her house in the day time we would not be having this discussion. The authors of the book chose to represent Mary as more or less a child, in what should e a safe environment, being visited and coerced in the night.
    That might be true, though I'm not sure you can really say the authors have represented Mary as being coerced, and you could certainly say they have represented her as being of marriageable age for the time. But I don't think we're having this discussion really because of what the authors have actually done; we're having it because some people have chosen to interpret what the authors have done in a particular way, and taken umbrage at their own interpretation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Irish parents do not choose religious education for their children - it is the default and it is very difficult or impossible to avoid it.
    Recedite has posted information on the patronage thread which showed that when given the opportunity to express a preference, the majority of parents in submissions opted for Catholic ethos schools though? So it would seem a very large proportion do (or would if they had the choice) choose religious education for their children.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Ah, you must be looking at a different part of the grow in love curriculum. We're talking about when Mary got pregnant here.
    Fair cop guv, I was looking at the other picture from the curriculum in the original post :)
    367639.jpg
    Though, to be even handed, I don't think either excerpt from the curriculum facilitated that particular predator, do you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Absolam wrote: »
    That might be true, though I'm not sure you can really say the authors have represented Mary as being coerced, and you could certainly say they have represented her as being of marriageable age for the time. But I don't think we're having this discussion really because of what the authors have actually done; we're having it because some people have chosen to interpret what the authors have done in a particular way, and taken umbrage at their own interpretation.

    Your argument has been pretty thin for a good while, I think this is just about breaking point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Slightly off topic but I'm sure the little junior infants appreciate learning that without Mary there would be no Christmas (nice pedagogical 'hook' to engage their minds)! In a few years they will learn the corollary: without communion $$ there is no Nintendo 3DS.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Slightly off topic but I'm sure the little junior infants appreciate learning that without Mary there would be no Christmas (nice pedagogical 'hook' to engage their minds)! In a few years they will learn the corollary: without communion $$ there is no Nintendo 3DS.


    Or if their parents were atheist they might appreciate being told that when they die they can be buried out back with shep the dog.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Or if their parents were atheist they might appreciate being told that when they die they can be buried out back with shep the dog.

    Pretty sure atheists have the same burial options in local authority owned burial grounds as everyone else.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    Teaching children that dysfunctional and broken families are acceptable = good

    Teaching children about their own faith = bad


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 541 ✭✭✭Bristolscale7


    Teaching children that dysfunctional and broken families are acceptable = good

    Teaching children about their own faith = bad

    In the words of Howard "Bunny" Colvin, "Thanks for being you."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Teaching children that dysfunctional and broken families are acceptable = good

    Teaching children about their own faith = bad

    Didn't Jesus come from a pretty dysfunctional family himself?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Teaching children about their own faith = bad

    Children don't innately have a religious faith unless adults force it on them.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    lazygal wrote: »
    Didn't Jesus come from a pretty dysfunctional family himself?
    Teenage mother having unprotected sex with a somebody she'd just met, absentee biological father, low-earning foster father. And none of them were even christians.

    Sends all the wrong signals to conservatives I'd have thought.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    lazygal wrote: »
    Pretty sure atheists have the same burial options in local authority owned burial grounds as everyone else.


    Sure they have options it's just a little hypocritical of them to elect to be buried in consecrated ground.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    "Quote: Absolam
    Well, let's not start from an incorrect assumption; you think it's a fact that children are being told something to be true in when in fact tis all a makey up story. I don't take a position on it, since the stipulation is not part of the OP, nor does it seem relevant to it."

    Any evidence to share that show it's being taught as a makey-up story rather than as a central tenant of Christian faith to be taken as, heh, gospel? Because it was definitely taught as fact when I was in school.
    Teaching children that dysfunctional and broken families are acceptable = good

    Teaching children about their own faith = bad
    Why can their parents not teach them about their faith at home and in Sunday school and mass?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    Your argument has been pretty thin for a good while, I think this is just about breaking point.
    Gosh that's me told :)
    Such a well founded rebuttal is certainly beyond dispute!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    lazygal wrote: »
    Pretty sure atheists have the same burial options in local authority owned burial grounds as everyone else.

    Sure they have options but is not a bit hypocritical of them to elect to be buried in consecrated ground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Sure they have options but is not a bit hypocritical of them to elect to be buried in consecrated ground.

    To an atheist "consecrated ground" is just "ground".


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    lazygal wrote: »
    Didn't Jesus come from a pretty dysfunctional family himself?

    Absentee father, hung out with a bad crowd, got in trouble with the law, died young.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    To an atheist "consecrated ground" is just "ground".


    Oh I got you. Just like when so many 'atheists' choose to get married in a church it really is just a building. Not a trace of hypocracy there I guess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Oh I got you. Just like when so many 'atheists' choose to get married in a church it really is just a building. Not a trace of hypocracy there I guess.

    You guess correctly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Sure they have options but is not a bit hypocritical of them to elect to be buried in consecrated ground.

    Local authorities cater for all faiths and none. What's hypocritical about being buried in such cemeteries?
    Didn't have a church wedding myself.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mod:
    Oh I got you. Just like when so many 'atheists' choose to get married in a church it really is just a building. Not a trace of hypocracy there I guess.
    Dan - last warning here. Be civil or you'll be carded.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Or if their parents were atheist they might appreciate being told that when they die they can be buried out back with shep the dog.

    Atheists really seem to wind you up, don't they?

    How about letting parents explain to their children about where and when they can be buried, if that explanation is ever needed, at an appropriate time? The school doesn't need to get involved at all.

    Same way the school doesn't need to be involved in indoctrinating kids - no reason why the parents couldn't take care of that too.

    But you go back to hating atheists for the fact that they exist and might not want a religion imposed on their kids.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,011 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Teaching children that dysfunctional and broken families are acceptable = good

    Teaching children about their own faith = bad

    What are these "dysfunctional" and "broken" families? Something tells me that ones with an abusive father aren't included in your list.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    swampgas wrote: »
    Atheists really seem to wind you up, don't they?

    How about letting parents explain to their children about where and when they can be buried, if that explanation is ever needed, at an appropriate time? The school doesn't need to get involved at all.

    Same way the school doesn't need to be involved in indoctrinating kids - no reason why the parents couldn't take care of that too.

    But you go back to hating atheists for the fact that they exist and might not want a religion imposed on their kids.

    What makes you think I hate atheists? I just find it strange that so many of them don't stick to their principles.If I was an atheist I would like to think I was man enough to never have my kids baptised, never have them get first communion or confirmation, never get married in a church, never attend a funeral service, basicly stick to my principles that's all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    robindch wrote: »
    Mod:Dan - last warning here. Be civil or you'll be carded.

    I described a set of circumstances or a position taken as being hypocrital IMO.
    I did not call anyone names as others have done but hey you're the mod.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I described a set of circumstances or a position taken as being hypocrital IMO.
    Most of your input to this thread been little beyond thinly-veiled insults - if you wish to avoid being carded, then either up the standard of your input, or if you can't or won't do that, then cut out the thinly-veiled insults.

    That is all.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    What makes you think I hate atheists? I just find it strange that so many of them don't stick to their principles.If I was an atheist I would like to think I was man enough to never have my kids baptised, never have them get first communion or confirmation, never get married in a church, never attend a funeral service, basicly stick to my principles that's all.

    Those would be your priniciples if you were an atheist, that doesn't mean they are the principles of every atheist. I've certainly never come across an atheist claiming that it would go against their principles to attend a funeral service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Teaching children that dysfunctional and broken families are acceptable = good

    Teaching children about their own faith = bad

    What dysfunctional families would that be?

    If you have to teach it to someone then it isn't their own faith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    . I've certainly never come across an atheist claiming that it would go against their principles to attend a funeral service.

    Me neither! (I'm a little constrained in how I reply, I can't use the word hypocritical for example)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Me neither! (I'm a little constrained in how I reply, I can't use the word hypocritical for example)

    I don't see why you need to. Would a Christian be hypocritical if they attended a Jewish funeral?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,951 ✭✭✭frostyjacks


    What are these "dysfunctional" and "broken" families? Something tells me that ones with an abusive father aren't included in your list.

    I'm just pointing out the absurdity of people who think it's ok to impose their sinister neo-Marxist agenda upon Catholic children, and at the same time seek to prevent them from learning about their own faith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Me neither! (I'm a little constrained in how I reply, I can't use the word hypocritical for example)

    Hypocrisy runs rampant through Irish society, and many atheists are indeed hypocrites, just as much as those who self-identify as Catholic.

    I'm an atheist who doesn't pretend otherwise - got married in a registry office, won't have a church funeral, etc., there are others who "go with the flow" because religion is so deeply embedded in Irish society that (for them) it's just too much hassle to do otherwise.

    Back on topic though - how does this relate to the OP???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    I'm just pointing out the absurdity of people who think it's ok to impose their sinister neo-Marxist agenda upon Catholic children, and at the same time seek to prevent them from learning about their own faith.

    I'm genuinely laughing out loud here. :D:D:D

    Thanks for brightening up my morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    I'm just pointing out the absurdity of people who think it's ok to impose their sinister neo-Marxist agenda upon Catholic children, and at the same time seek to prevent them from learning about their own faith.

    You're right, what you've written there is completely absurd.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I'm just pointing out the absurdity of people who think it's ok to impose their sinister neo-Marxist agenda upon Catholic children, and at the same time seek to prevent them from learning about their own faith.

    How is our not raising children in Catholic doctrine sinister and neo Marxist?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    I'm just pointing out the absurdity of people who think it's ok to impose their sinister neo-Marxist agenda upon Catholic children, and at the same time seek to prevent them from learning about their own faith.

    What dysfunctional families would that be?

    What neo-Marxist agenda? Every time I see Marxism or Marxist it tends to come from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

    And Im still confused on how something can be a persons faith if they dont believe it and have to be taught to believe it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    kylith wrote: »
    Any evidence to share that show it's being taught as a makey-up story rather than as a central tenant of Christian faith to be taken as, heh, gospel? Because it was definitely taught as fact when I was in school.
    You'll have to ask Gebgbegb I'm afraid... it was his assertion, not mine :) I said I didn't take a position on it; the sentence directly after the one you quoted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Absolam wrote: »
    I said I didn't take a position on it;

    Indeed - it seems your seat on the fence is far too comfortable!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    I don't see why you need to. Would a Christian be hypocritical if they attended a Jewish funeral?

    ? Christians don't abhor religion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    ? Christians don't abhor religion.

    Neither do atheists, as a rule. How would it be hypocritical for an Atheist to attend a funeral service?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    I'm just pointing out the absurdity of people who think it's ok to impose their sinister neo-Marxist agenda upon Catholic children, and at the same time seek to prevent them from learning about their own faith.
    What makes them Catholic? They were baptised? So if I spray holy water from a cargo plane over Saudi Arabia they're all Catholics whether they like it or not?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    swampgas wrote: »
    Indeed - it seems your seat on the fence is far too comfortable!
    It has it's merits... not feeling the need to comment on everyone never mind everything certainly allows more free time for a start :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Kev W wrote: »
    Neither do atheists, as a rule. How would it be hypocritical for an Atheist to attend a funeral service?

    Atheists don't believe in God and don't approve of religion. It would be the same as if you were'nt a racist and yet attended Ku Klux Klan meetings would'nt it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Atheists don't believe in God and don't approve of religion. It would be the same as if you were'nt a racist and yet attended Ku Klux Klan meetings would'nt it.

    How is it the same?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,582 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Atheists don't believe in God and don't approve of religion. It would be the same as if you were'nt a racist and yet attended Ku Klux Klan meetings would'nt it.

    Atheists don't believe in any God or Gods. What they think of religion is irrelevant to being an atheist.

    If the RCC were actively burning atheists at the stake, or hounding them out of towns and villages, your analogy might have more power to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Atheists don't believe in God and don't approve of religion. It would be the same as if you were'nt a racist and yet attended Ku Klux Klan meetings would'nt it.

    Atheists's don't believe in God or Gods full stop. Approving or not approving of religion is a personal standpoint.


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