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Interesting wee read on Ireland's Slave history.

13

Comments

  • #62
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    Would you disagree with Liam Hogan that black Africans had it worse in the Caribbean than the white Irish did?

    After all, as Hogan argues, the children of the white Irish in servitude weren't taken off them and sold as slaves.

    Also, the white Irish would work for what he calls "a set period of time (between two and seven years)", whereas black Africans worked until they were dead, whether that was of natural causes or not.
    Not seeing anyone say Irish slaves had it worse than black slaves?

    Crikey, what is it with the "Well we can't talk", "Others had it worse" whataboutery when it comes to Irish people referring to themselves (but would no doubt be deemed unacceptable in relation to other nationalities).


  • #63
    Martial9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 655 ✭✭✭Martial9


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    Interesting, but not universally accepted as fact.

    Liam Hogan, a historian from Limerick, has said that the distinction must be made between black African slaves and white Irish indentured servants.

    You can read more about it here, but I'll give you a few quotes.

    From the article:
    "In this narrative, the term ‘Irish slaves’ refers specifically to those who were forced onto transport ships and sold into indentured servitude in the West Indies during the Cromwellian era."

    What is that, if not being sold into slavery? And why are Irish people desperate to play this down? Indentured servant/slave. Same job, just a different name tag.


  • #64
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Shrap wrote: »
    You're being very defensive peeps. If you think our Irish history being hyped up and used by White Supremacists is none of our business, then grand. Me however, I have a problem with it, so I'd like my facts straight first and I think it's fair to say that not many of us have heard of this "slavery" till now. Personally (important word; I've used it a few times above) I'm going with caution, which of course shouldn't stop ye from carrying on regardless....

    Knock yerselves out ;)
    Have you read the book in question?


  • #65
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,297 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »
    Any chance we might get a few quid in reparations?
    We could always sell off the scumbags and prisoners as slaves, kill 2 birds with the one stone:)


  • #66
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Martial9 wrote: »
    From the article:



    What is that, if not being sold into slavery? And why are Irish people desperate to play this down?
    Because they're oh so enlightened. And so much "better" than those pesky nuisances who make mention of injustices against Irish people and embarrassing them.

    The topic of white slavery can be brought up for dodgy reasons yes, but I see zero evidence of that in the opening post.


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  • #67
    Martial9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 655 ✭✭✭Martial9


    Azalea wrote: »
    Because they're oh so enlightened. And so much "better" than those pesky nuisances who make mention of injustices against Irish people and embarrassing them.

    The topic of white slavery can be brought up for dodgy reasons yes, but I see zero evidence of that in the opening post.

    It is bizarre logic. We all know what went on during the trans-atlantic slave trade was inhumane and barbaric. Discussing what Irish indentured servants went through, on an Irish board, does not mean that people want to play down what Afro-Americans went through. If someone discusses Holodomor it does not mean that they want to play down the Holocaust.

    It is not a game in the oppression Olympics.

    A lot of people, especially in the west, see slavery as a white and black historical issue. Unfortunately, slavery still exists on a huge scale today. Estimates range from 15-30 million people live are enslaved globally. It is still a huge problem that needs to be tackled globally.
    We think of slavery as a practice of the past, an image from Roman colonies or 18th-century American plantations, but the practice of enslaving human beings as property still exists. There are 29.8 million people living as slaves right now, according to a comprehensive new report issued by the Australia-based Walk Free Foundation.




    This is not some softened, by-modern-standards definition of slavery. These 30 million people are living as forced laborers, forced prostitutes, child soldiers, child brides in forced marriages and, in all ways that matter, as pieces of property, chattel in the servitude of absolute ownership. Walk Free investigated 162 countries and found slaves in every single one. But the practice is far worse in some countries than others.




    The country where you are most likely to be enslaved is Mauritania. Although this vast West African nation has tried three times to outlaw slavery within its borders, it remains so common that it is nearly normal. The report estimates that four percent of Mauritania is enslaved – one out of every 25 people. (The aid group SOS Slavery, using a broader definition of slavery, estimated several years ago that as many as 20 percent of Mauritanians might be enslaved.)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/

    We can get bogged down on the definitions of chattel slavery, indentured servitude, etc. but if you're unfree, practically property of someone else, have no rights and can't leave the situation - then it doesn't really matter to you if you're labelled an indentured servant or what not.


  • #68
    Hagar7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Hagar7


    masti123 wrote: »
    For those interested, Damien Dempsey wrote a great song on this topic called "To Hell or Barbados". 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLLH1i5_LlQ
    .
    Thanks for posting.🍀


  • #69
    jamesbere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭jamesbere


    An eye opening but depressing read, Never knew the Irish were been used in such vast numbers as slaves. :(


  • #70
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    jamesbere wrote: »
    An eye opening but depressing read, Never knew the Irish were been used in such vast numbers as slaves. :(

    No, no, no. They offered the willing Irish all-expenses-paid cruise to the Caribbean and a new life on the other side of the universe if they agreed to do a bit of tidying up around their plantation-resorts, for a week or two, on arrival in paradise.


  • #71
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Azalea wrote: »
    Because they're oh so enlightened. And so much "better" than those pesky nuisances who make mention of injustices against Irish people and embarrassing them.

    The topic of white slavery can be brought up for dodgy reasons yes, but I see zero evidence of that in the opening post.

    Not enlightened at all, just more aware of the pitfalls of looking at historical events as singular acts, it don't work that way I'm afraid. Slave traders were the recuitment agents of the time, anybody with enough dough for a boat and enough eejits to crew it was at it.

    I remember reading somewhere that Irish slave merchants supplied as many souls to the sugar plantations in Haiti as the French did themselves, but I wouldn't go writing articles about them claiming they were responsible for providing the manpower for its independence, that would be just silly.


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  • #72
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    No, no, no. They offered the willing Irish all-expenses-paid cruise to the Caribbean and a new life on the other side of the universe if they agreed to do a bit of tidying up around their plantation-resorts, for a week or two, on arrival in paradise.

    A tropical Job-bridge, if you would.


  • #73
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    We could always sell off the scumbags and prisoners as slaves, kill 2 birds with the one stone:)

    If you read excerpts from the book, that is exactly what the ruling classes did.


  • #74
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,797 ✭✭✭karma_


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If you read excerpts from the book, that is exactly what the ruling classes did.

    Still do, look no further than the US prison system and their manufacture of military equipment.


  • #75
    Hagar7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Hagar7


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    Yep that's exactly what I said. Well done :)


    It's a 'Fuk Da Brits' thread, and any discussion about slavery and the hundreds of thousands of Irish that suffered it's horrible end, not to mention the thousands that profited from it, is purely incidental. :)
    I think you've got hold of the wrong stick,it's not a 'Fukin da Brits' rant at all.
    I was born in England so what you're trying tae achieve from saying it is wrong.
    There's some very interesting points that were made that I never knew of and knowledge is power for the future,if the past haunts you then I sincerely apologise.


  • #76
    Hagar7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Hagar7


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    Interesting, but not universally accepted as fact.

    Liam Hogan, a historian from Limerick, has said that the distinction must be made between black African slaves and white Irish indentured servants.

    You can read more about it here, but I'll give you a few quotes.
    Many thanks.👍


  • #77
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Martial9 wrote: »
    It is bizarre logic. We all know what went on during the trans-atlantic slave trade was inhumane and barbaric. Discussing what Irish indentured servants went through, on an Irish board, does not mean that people want to play down what Afro-Americans went through. If someone discusses Holodomor it does not mean that they want to play down the Holocaust.
    It's similar to the "We can't criticise sharia because of the magdalene laundries" rubbish. As if "we're" responsible in some way just because we are also Irish, despite not even being born and it being possible to be critical of both. It's a form of national blaming whose proponents wouldn't dream of applying it to other nations.

    It's also news to me that there's always something underhand implicit if an aspect of history is discussed in and of itself without the bigger picture - or that those discussing it are somehow stating it's the only example of such a thing happening. It's regularly done about any topic but if it's about a situation where Irish people were mistreated by British people, oh well, better start whatabouting and throwing out "shinnerbot" accusations.


  • #78
    Azalea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭Azalea


    Hagar7 wrote: »
    I think you've got hold of the wrong stick,it's not a 'Fukin da Brits' rant at all.
    I was born in England so what you're trying tae achieve from saying it is wrong.
    There's some very interesting points that were made that I never knew of and knowledge is power for the future,if the past haunts you then I sincerely apologise.
    You're the one who deserves an apology for being accused of starting a "fuk the Brits" thread apropos nothing.


  • #79
    MakeEmLaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭MakeEmLaugh


    Azalea wrote: »
    Not seeing anyone say Irish slaves had it worse than black slaves?

    Well, I would certainly interpret statements like the following as an implication the Irish had it worse.
    Hagar7 wrote: »
    It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.

    If a planter whipped, branded or beat an Irish slave to death, it was never a crime. A death was a monetary setback, but far cheaper than killing a more expensive African.

    I would also like to see evidence from more than one qualified historian that the treatment of the white Irish was worse than the black Africans, since it is apparently 'well recorded'.

    Saying something is 'well recorded' but then failing to follow up with a single citation is simply lazy writing.


  • #80
    purplepanda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    Anyone doubting that such events did happen can start by reading this publication & others by Peter Beresford Eliis which has details & figures with references. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fOhnSbdD6Q0C&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=history+of+the+irish+working+class+cromwell+slavery&source=bl&ots=XNZa9tAjC-&sig=UzwwA9WB5WoKuCGFvQvF0-P3HGk&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=history%20of%20the%20irish%20working%20class%20cromwell%20slavery&f=false

    Similar accounts have been referenced & published for well over 30 years perhaps longer, these historical accounts are nothing new.

    Dismissing such accounts as made up by internet bloggers doesn't convince those of us that have read about this historical period before the days of the internet.


  • #81
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Nodin wrote: »
    You'll never move on unless you face the truth sutch. Coming on and indulging in embarrassing apologia will avail thee naught.

    Hardly surprising considering that he can't even bring himself to condemn security force collusion with loyalist murder-gangs during the troubles. He just won't hear a bad word about our former colonisers.


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  • #82
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Hardly surprising considering that he can't even bring himself to condemn security force collusion with loyalist murder-gangs during the troubles. He just won't hear a bad word about our former colonisers.

    Now you are reverting to what exactly? collusion, murder gangs, What :confused:

    My posts on here refer to the fact that the history forum might be the best place to disect the claims made by John Martin's book. I don't have the facts re deaths in the 1600s so I have suggested that this thread be scrutinised in the history forum, how many ways can I say that.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97437582&postcount=35


  • #83
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Now you are reverting to what exactly? collusion, murder gangs, What :confused:

    My posts on here refer to the fact that the history forum might be the best place to disect the claims made by John Martin's book. I don't have the facts re deaths in the 1600s so I have suggested that this thread be scrutinised in the history forum, how many ways can I say that.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97437582&postcount=35

    There's a fairly wide concensus on the deaths.


  • #84
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Shrap wrote: »
    You're being very defensive peeps. If you think our Irish history being hyped up and used by White Supremacists is none of our business, then grand. Me however, I have a problem with it, so I'd like my facts straight first and I think it's fair to say that not many of us have heard of this "slavery" till now. Personally (important word; I've used it a few times above) I'm going with caution, which of course shouldn't stop ye from carrying on regardless....

    Knock yerselves out ;)

    You not hearing about it tells us something about your level of education or interest. It's pretty amazing that anybody born on this country hasn't heard about that trade. It's a tribute to Anerican hegemony that every has heard about the transatlantic trade.

    I don't believe that Irish slaves had it worse though. Probably about the same per person. The sheer magnitude of the African slave trade dwarfs the Irish trade. From the point of view of an Irish American –comparing his ancestors with the trials of black American makes little sense, these slaves didn't go to the US. Irish people in Ireland should know this history.


  • #85
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    Not enlightened at all, just more aware of the pitfalls of looking at historical events as singular acts, it don't work that way I'm afraid. Slave traders were the recuitment agents of the time, anybody with enough dough for a boat and enough eejits to crew it was at it.

    I remember reading somewhere that Irish slave merchants supplied as many souls to the sugar plantations in Haiti as the French did themselves, but I wouldn't go writing articles about them claiming they were responsible for providing the manpower for its independence, that would be just silly.

    You probably need a link for that. There may have been Irish aristocrats domiciled in France doing something like that ( hogan loves to dwell on such things) but most of us are descendents of the peasant classes who had no political power.

    As to your claim that this is a anti-British thread it's no more anti-British to mention past atrocities than it is anti-German to mention the holocaust, or anti-White American to deplore the African slave trade, or Indian nationalist and anti-British to condemn the Bengal famine. Which you can now Google.

    And even if the Bengal famine wasn't as bad as say, the holocaust, it's isn't either extremely right wing of Indians to mention it, or Brit bashing. It is a historical fact. Worth remembering.


  • #86
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    There's a fairly wide concensus on the deaths.

    The thing is, if you take his claims in isolation like "The English Killed 500.000 Irish within the space of eleven years" you have to pause and think - but how come this has never come to light before? Its certainly not covered in school history lessons. 500.000 people "killed by the English" just seems somewhat off the scale and sensationalist, and anyway what does it actually mean?

    ...and it transpires that "The English" were Cromwell's army who were fighting against his opposing Royalist English army in Ireland who included many Irish men amongst their ranks, then throw in the cholera epidemic + typhoid and you begin to see that this one off "fact" is very very complicated, maybe too complicated for after hours?

    The 500.000 Killed by... popped up in another thread a week or two ago, and both threads feed off the claims in this one 2009 book.

    All I am saying is to take some of the claims with a pinch of salt.

    History forum....


  • #87
    JacquesSon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 758 ✭✭✭JacquesSon


    Is there slave hierachy?

    I worked with an aboriginal who told me straight, through his one brown and one blue eye, that Australia has treated aborignals badly but he'd run through a wall for his country. The man could.


  • #88
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    I've seen the Monteserrat video before. It's very good.


  • #89
    Hagar7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Hagar7


    Shrap wrote: »
    I personally think that it's quite important to counter white supremacists wherever we find them. In this case, they and their culture of racism are the very reason that this "Irish Slaves" meme has taken off in recent times. In fact, they and their denial of the atrocities that occurred under slavery to black people are exactly why we are now hearing about "Irish Slavery". So whatever about the truth of the meme, we should all be aware of why it's now being promulgated.

    That's not whinging, that's advising caution btw.
    May I ask,would you say I represent 'white supremacist.'?


  • #90
    Hagar7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Hagar7


    Azalea wrote: »
    You're the one who deserves an apology for being accused of starting a "fuk the Brits" thread apropos nothing.
    Thanks bud but I'm sorry for starting any wee arguments on here,I honestly thought it would lead tae a decent debate instead of the tit for tat scenario,I must add though that there's many intelligent folk on Boards.ie who are a credit tae this forum.


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  • #91
    mikeym
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭mikeym


    I presume theres not many Irish descendants in Montserrat anymore due to the Volcano.

    Theres a town called Kinsale in Montserrat :)


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